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MichaelP3
Guest
He has his somewhat good side. I, watching him every day, see him more of a Catholic enemy then a Protestant one.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Just start with authority and work your way down from there
Matthew 18:17 John 20:21-23
Jesus left us a visible and authoritative Church
Then read the ECFs like Clement and Polycarp who instruct Christians to submit to Church authority.
Protestantism is it’s own authority and that is totally off base with original Christian teaching.
Pax
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MichaelP3
Guest
Fair thinking that I expected and respect. Although it still does not answer my question? Does it contradict the Creed?
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Protestants outside maybe Anglicans and some Lutherans do not believe in ONE holy catholic and apostolic church as defined in that era. Most of Protestantism interprets the creed, itself, incorrectly in order to claim they believe in it.
As far as the practice of SS, since there were no bibles in existence then, no it wasn’t mentioned.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
I know he has battled his own demons with homosexuality, so that explains his hardliner approach on that issue within the church.
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
You support a guy who regularly attacks the Pope and the Bishops.
Boy, color me surprised.
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
“Do not be too quick to condemn the man who no longer believes in God: for it is perhaps your own coldness and avarice, and mediocrity, and selfishness, that have chilled his faith.”
Thomas Merton.
Thomas Merton.
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Reuben_J
Guest
What is this? Is it directed to anyone here?
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goout
Guest
It seems that should apply to everyone. It recognizes that our sin has consequences for others as well as ourselves.What is this? Is it directed to anyone here?
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
There was once a story (origin unknown) about a preacher who put an open box in the church with a sign that said: come and see the face of the person destroying this church.What is this? Is it directed to anyone here?
The box had a mirror in it.
Merton’s words are directed at me, at you, and anyone else who think the ‘other group’ has a corner on sin and unbelief.
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TheAtheist
Guest
Well this thread has been…interesting…at the very least from an anthropological perspective.
Might I make a suggestion?
The vast majority of respondents have relied upon two forms of argumentation in favor or against the question.
1.) Doctrine
2.) Personal Experiences
While personal experiences and intuitions can be quite useful and important, i tend to find it difficult to accept them as evidence for claims that effect whole populations. Of course I’m biased given my profession, and i would feel more comfortable with a lot more data points.
Doctrine… well… as i often remark to all my religious friends be they Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, etc… When does Doctrine start to look like Ideology?
And what i mean to say is, because you (or anyone for that matter - applies to those who accept certain political philosophical viewpoints, etc) buy into a set of propositions as being true you have no way of actually testing the validity of those propositions beyond bluntly stating “I believe X.”
Now if this is merely a “Pat yourself on the back” exercise, that’s understandable. to a degree CAF is a clubhouse, and I acknowledge that this is just general behavior - i’d pretty much expect to see the same in say a Muslim forum I occasionally pop my head into about how “Not Enough Qu’ran reading” leads to Materialism.
But i’d like to propose a 3rd option
3,) Be Empirical → Data and Polling Results
2 Organizations I tend to trust given reputation and polling methodology
This makes the most sense to me if you are really interested in the question asked and not just engaging in clubhouse banter.
But it would also force the OP to further refine the question
I mean, would he or she simply accept Raw Data numbers on the number of Protestants in the past say… 5 years who switched their affiliation to the Nones category and compare it to the number of Catholics who have done the same?
And where would he include the Oriental and Orthodox churches in that mix? Or are they just taken out of the analysis altogether?
You would also have to consider that the None(s) is a problematic category if not further subdivided - it its quite capable of holding atheists, deists, and people who are spiritual in a Christian sense yet are simply fed up with Organized religion.
Might I make a suggestion?
The vast majority of respondents have relied upon two forms of argumentation in favor or against the question.
1.) Doctrine
2.) Personal Experiences
While personal experiences and intuitions can be quite useful and important, i tend to find it difficult to accept them as evidence for claims that effect whole populations. Of course I’m biased given my profession, and i would feel more comfortable with a lot more data points.
Doctrine… well… as i often remark to all my religious friends be they Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, etc… When does Doctrine start to look like Ideology?
And what i mean to say is, because you (or anyone for that matter - applies to those who accept certain political philosophical viewpoints, etc) buy into a set of propositions as being true you have no way of actually testing the validity of those propositions beyond bluntly stating “I believe X.”
Now if this is merely a “Pat yourself on the back” exercise, that’s understandable. to a degree CAF is a clubhouse, and I acknowledge that this is just general behavior - i’d pretty much expect to see the same in say a Muslim forum I occasionally pop my head into about how “Not Enough Qu’ran reading” leads to Materialism.
But i’d like to propose a 3rd option
3,) Be Empirical → Data and Polling Results
2 Organizations I tend to trust given reputation and polling methodology
Code:
[pewresearch.org/](http://www.pewresearch.org/)
[gallup.com/home.aspx](http://www.gallup.com/home.aspx)But it would also force the OP to further refine the question
I mean, would he or she simply accept Raw Data numbers on the number of Protestants in the past say… 5 years who switched their affiliation to the Nones category and compare it to the number of Catholics who have done the same?
And where would he include the Oriental and Orthodox churches in that mix? Or are they just taken out of the analysis altogether?
You would also have to consider that the None(s) is a problematic category if not further subdivided - it its quite capable of holding atheists, deists, and people who are spiritual in a Christian sense yet are simply fed up with Organized religion.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
What’s up with your constant personal attacks ever since i started posting here?You support a guy who regularly attacks the Pope and the Bishops.
Boy, color me surprised.
And Voris attacks liberalism and immorality. That’s why im in his camp.
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
Right there folks, for all to see.
I’m Catholic, we don’t have ‘camps’. That’s a fundamentalist thing.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Might want to read everyting i have said about him. There are times when he is wrong and sometimes lacks tact .
Nevermind. Just say hello to my ignore list as these attacks are a running theme with you.
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JustaServant
Guest
Taking the second one first, how else are people to relate their experiences to a fixed group such as ‘atheist’? They come from all walks of life and professions. The ones I have come into contact with have no interest in any scientific or philosophical argumentation for their personal position. For them, it’s more a lifestyle that fits them. Many are good people. One I knew displayed more moral fiber than the Bible-waving fundamentalist whose job he replaced. But his lifestyle would have to change with the acknowledgement of a God.
Sidebar, his mother went to a very conservative African American church and was very devout. But I don’t think it would be fair to blame that church or his mother for the decisions he made. Those were his alone.
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JustaServant
Guest
The fact that a radical traditionalist, disobedient to the Church, claims Protestantism leads to atheism speaks volumes. He is hardly an expert…on anything.
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Padres1969
Guest
I found the opposite to be true in my own life. I was agnostic bordering on atheism at one point, but it eventually it led me to what Catholics would consider a Protestant Church
Indeed. We have a great number of converts from other Christian churches in my own parish. Both Catholic, Evangelical, and indeed several churches most Christians don’t consider Christians such as Mormon and JW.
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Padres1969
Guest
Church Militant and Mr Voris say a great many things. I’d take most of it with a grain of salt.
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Padres1969
Guest
But do you have any polling data to indicate how the OP’s original question might be answered? I’ve been looking and I don’t see anything of the sort from Gallup or Pew in my seaches so far.
So the “clubhouse banter” is about all we have to go on.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
He vehemently speaks out against sin and lukewarm Christianity.
So did Jesus, btw.
We should all be agreement with him on that.
What I cant agree with is statements such as this latest claim of Protestantism leading to atheism(the most ridiculous thing i have heard him say), or his lack of warmth and tact. People don’t care what you know until they know you care.
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