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MichaelP3
Guest
Can’t disagree with your last statement.
But that would be “to believe”, and as we know, belief can move mountains. Being told something(informed) is not the same.
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But that would be “to believe”, and as we know, belief can move mountains. Being told something(informed) is not the same.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Well, you can know with certainty if you consult the Pillar and foundation of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15)Can’t disagree with your last statement.
But that would be “to believe”, and as we know, belief can move mountains. Being told something(informed) is not the same.
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MichaelP3
Guest
I see where you are going and I guess its fair to say that. But I started to realise this is maybe a bit of confusion on the part. As with Romans 10:9 as you stated. Someone had a lot to say about it (can be this thread). But that part about fully believing I would say is where the confusion is. I agree many Protestants may quote that and think cool. But I think it goes further. I am talking fully believing without a single doubt without whatever. You get what I mean, the very extreme possibly imagining of believing. We are told it can move mountains, and how many of us has moved a mountain before? This would rather be my worry for salvation than all these little things different denominations squabble about.Well, you can know with certainty if you consult the Pillar and foundation of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15)
It is fair to say someone believe yes, but (obviously I can’t judge or know anyone’s heart) but personally that’s much more of a concern than anything.
I have absolutely no problem with the Eucharist. That will be the least of my problems in becoming Catholic. The problem comes in, that everything is so intertwined and of course this notion of always being correct that finding even one single controversy will put everything into question.
Taking the two parts together, Catholicism has 10000 things that has to be believed while Protestantism has 1.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Seems to be ample evidence for Transubstantiation in the work of the Church Fathers and scriptural evidence so those who are informed such as yourself find this one a little easier to absorb than the Marian dogmas.
Understand what you are saying and the Churchs’ i guess, ‘rigidness’ has bothered me at times. But then I stop and look at history…just 100 years ago birth control was looked at as intrinsically evil by all denominations across the board. Now the Catholic Church is the only one holding to this(to my knowledge). So what exactly happened? Is truth relative or is it absolute? Is truth determined by the times and/or democratic vote or by what our unchanging God says it is? Now female ordination is almost universally accepted based on a twisting of one scriptural passage by Paul and Homosexuality is next on the agenda in the, to borrow a Voris saying, “the Church of nice”. I know this is just morality issues but you get my drift here, I’m sure. We naturally want the Church to conform to us, we don’t want to conform to it.
I totally get your frustration, overall as I tackled it for nearly a decade off and on, trying to make sense of it all.
BTW, I loved Romans 10:9 as a protestant and still love it now. It’s a good starting point whether you are encouraging someone to consider the Catholic Church, or asking them to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.
Pax
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mackbrislawn
Guest
I think this is a legitimate question. Maybe not Protestantism but perhaps the principles and assumptions contained in the Protestant Reformation. The Reformation rejected the authority of tradition, and the existence of an authoritative, official, Church that interpreted scripture. This rejection has logical consequences.
We see that as the Reformation went on, more and more teachings and practices inherited from the Roman church were abandoned and left behind. We observe a principle of reductionism here. The early Protestant churches, such as Lutheran, retained a lot of the trappings of the Roman Church, and also many of its teachings. Later Reformers dropped and denied more traditions, teachings, and practices as time and the centuries progressed. This process goes on and on until there is nothing left! What’s to stop it?
In the late 1800’s modern liberal Protestant theologians and scholars even began doubting the inspiration of scripture itself, realizing that since the basis for that belief is simply Catholic tradition, and if tradition cannot be trusted, why continue to believe in scripture? So they don’t. Even scripture then is left behind. The principle of reductionism at work. What is left? Agnosticism and atheism.
We see this in western Europe, which is now mostly a secular society. And happening in the U.S. as well. Fundamentalism was a reaction against these modern liberal tendencies, but theirs is a rearguard action and has no way to stem the tide.
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Wannabe_Monk_16
Guest
Can you please provide evidence of Michael Voris being at odds with the Church? Is his “being at odds” theological in nature…?
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JustaServant
Guest
See post 68.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Not promoting the Vortex in here, but this video is relevant and just came out today:
youtube.com/watch?v=qQrPzquM_fw
Christianity in general is falling in the USA.
Especially with Millenials who are stripped of whatever beliefs they do have in University as their beliefs are constantly challenged.
I think Voris has answered his own question. No, protestantism does not lead to Atheism, the overall conditioning of the nation in question does.
youtube.com/watch?v=qQrPzquM_fw
Christianity in general is falling in the USA.
Especially with Millenials who are stripped of whatever beliefs they do have in University as their beliefs are constantly challenged.
I think Voris has answered his own question. No, protestantism does not lead to Atheism, the overall conditioning of the nation in question does.
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Peter_J
Guest
Hi all. I almost didn’t click on this thread, but now that I’m here I’ll give you my two cents: I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone claim that Protestantism leads to atheism before, but I’ve encountered a lot of online RCs who seem to think that or something similar.
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Peter_J
Guest
So Protestantism leads to Catholicism and Catholicism leads to Protestantism?
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Peter_J
Guest
Not to me. I’d rather just change the channel.
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Peter_J
Guest
“The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.”
- Brennan Manning
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Wannano
Guest
I believe there may be a deeper element of truthfulness in your comment than initially meets the eye. Christianity is comprised of both Catholicism and Protestantism. I can see where Catholics have some desire for things Protestant and also where Protestants see value in some things Catholic. Only God knows the heart of a Christian whether he be Catholic or Protestant.So Protestantism leads to Catholicism and Catholicism leads to Protestantism?
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goout
Guest
That and fundamentalism. The literalist reading of scripture, trying to justify a non-Christological God.
Most atheist object to something that is not even true Christianity.
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MichaelP3
Guest
Hi again
I hear what you are saying and it seems like one can think other Churches conform to the will of the people. Although I rather prefer not to get into conversations on homosexuality and contraception I do get your point. Just want to say, for a Protestant not believing any institution has absolute authority in this way, none of those are a problem (but you know this).
I wouldn’t say at all it is the Catholic rigidness that is my problem. If that is the truth then I would accept it with all my heart. But I am not experiencing any Marian aperitians? I have sat through numerous Masses checking (and I don’t mean this bad in an way, but I was looking for something) out the Priest as he was consecrating the Eucharist. I have investigated Holy Water in various different ways. Help me but I don’t see anything.
(btw, not to Lenten_ashes, but I expect an interesting response to this.
)
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Peter_J
Guest
Is the church, in your view, an institution?
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MichaelP3
Guest
Hi Mr Peter J
Just saying that stating the Church says A or B isn’t an argument that will fly for a person like me agreeing or disagreeing. I really don’t mean it in a bad way. And Lenten_ashes being a previous protestant will know, that is all I meant.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
I’ll send a Marian apparition to your house next Friday. Does 5pm work?:heaven:Hi again
I hear what you are saying and it seems like one can think other Churches conform to the will of the people. Although I rather prefer not to get into conversations on homosexuality and contraception I do get your point. Just want to say, for a Protestant not believing any institution has absolute authority in this way, none of those are a problem (but you know this).
I wouldn’t say at all it is the Catholic rigidness that is my problem. If that is the truth then I would accept it with all my heart. But I am not experiencing any Marian aperitians? I have sat through numerous Masses checking (and I don’t mean this bad in an way, but I was looking for something) out the Priest as he was consecrating the Eucharist. I have investigated Holy Water in various different ways. Help me but I don’t see anything.
(btw, not to Lenten_ashes, but I expect an interesting response to this.
she’ll be armed with super soakers full of extra strength holy water lolIn all seriousness, maybe you are looking too much and aren’t really ready for it.
RCIA is a free(usually free anyway) no commitment course open to anyone. If i were in your position id seriously consider attending it and asking the Spirit if all this is really true, then please help me to see it. I can tell you that i waited until 90% of it made sense before i signed up, and during the course the final blanks were filled in. Really nothing to lose and even if it doesnt work out, at least you have appeased your wife by demonstrating a desire to be equally yoked on matters of faith.
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Peter_J
Guest
Fair enough. But I really do want to know, Is the church an institution?Hi Mr Peter J
Just saying that stating the Church says A or B isn’t an argument that will fly for a person like me agreeing or disagreeing. I really don’t mean it in a bad way. And Lenten_ashes being a previous protestant will know, that is all I meant.
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MichaelP3
Guest
Lenten_ashes I really like you. You have a way of posting here that makes it feel good. Thank you first of all.I’ll send a Marian apparition to your house next Friday. Does 5pm work?:heaven:
In all seriousness, maybe you are looking too much and aren’t really ready for it.
RCIA is a free(usually free anyway) no commitment course open to anyone. If i were in your position id seriously consider attending it and asking the Spirit if all this is really true, then please help me to see it. I can tell you that i waited until 90% of it made sense before i signed up, and during the course the final blanks were filled in. Really nothing to lose and even if it doesnt work out, at least you have appeased your wife by demonstrating a desire to be equally yoked on matters of faith.
I’d actually (even just for fun, no bad whatever intended ) have attended RCIA. But I live in a far away town, in a country where Catholicism isn’t major (We do have 4 Dutch Reformed churches to choose from but that is besides the point). Maybe 60 km away would be the nearest.
On another hand. My wife being a previous Catholic. She is even more a Protestant than I am today. I would like to take the credit, but I can’t. We were sitting in the Zagreb Cathedral a month ago (we were visiting the family and Croatia was near) and the questions she asked me I could not answer. It is an awesome Cathedral, no question about that. But she was (Please don’t ask me to explain for I do not know) seeing it a different way.
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