Does pryaer chane things?

[PhilotheaZ]

The next logical step to take is that God never intervened in mine or your life. Maybe Homer Simpson is right and life is “just a bunch of stuff that happens.”

I guess my question is, why are you continuing this argument?

Are you a believer who just needs a little extra support for your faith in God and the power of prayer? If so, I think the answers you have already received on this thread should give you enough to ponder for a while. Take the matter to prayer; ask God to increase your faith.

Or is it that you deny the existence of God (or deny His ability to intervene in our lives), and want to bring everyone to your way of thinking? If that’s the case, it’s not going to happen on this forum. You’re barking up the wrong tree.

Your profile says you are Catholic. Are you really?

This quote comes to mind:

“For those with faith, no explanation is necessary. For those without, no explanation is possible.” — Saint Thomas Aquinas

God bless you on your journey.

 

[Kuzushi]

I guess my question is, why are you continuing this argument?

Isn’t the purpose of a discussion forum to discuss? Why ask why?

I have a firm belief that belief MUST be based on logic. I am raising a legitimate question based on what I see as a flaw in t the reasoning of those who believe prayer changes things. If I were to ask this in an atheist forum I would get agreement, but what good would that do? I am looking for logical and intelligent discourse and solutions.

I remain gratefull and respectfull of all who contribute to this thread.

 

[InLight247]

Since you insist your belief has to be based on logic, I just want to remind you it is impossible to confine almighty God with human logic. Keep in mind God’s way is not our way.

Plus, what you think as logical may be totally illogical to others. For example, you said,

If God is willing to give me “blessings and protection” than why not grow back some other poor person’s leg? The next logical step to take is that God never intervened in mine or your life.

Your logic is totally absurd to me and I’m not going to reason with you.

As for the question you had for “those who don’t believe,they take things for granted, but blame God for anything not turn out as they wish,” yes, that is true for both who believe in God but don’t believe God’s blessing, and for those who don’t even believe in God. The latter uses any opportunity to cast blame on God, saying things such as “if there is God, how could such a thing happen?” That’s how they do not believe in God but they still can cast blame on Him.

If you really are a Catholic, and you can say “God never intervened in mine or your life.”
I have nothing more to say.

 

[Ceil-1]

I know a young man who was cured of leukemia. Normally, the cancer cells are minimized and the person goes into remission. This person had a complete absence of cancer cells over a period of time.

His entire town had held a 24/7 prayer vigil for him.

Once, in Adoration, my replacement rushed in and asked me to beg the Lord for help. Her nephew had been ambushed in Iraq, and his ankle was blown up. He was hysterical, thinking the enemy had him and he was about to be tortured. and out of his mind in pain. They had rushed him to Germany, and at that very moment was screaming and fighting them so they could not put him down for surgery.

Surgery for amputation was essential. The foot was black and and nearly severed. We appealed to the Lord, right then and there. The foot not only did not gangrene, but, within 24 hours began to heal and pink up. It was shattered, but, her nephew did not lose it. Two of his buddies’ bodies were found tortured to death.

If you have no relationship with God, you will miss the interior movements of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift, but you have to desire it.

You clearly are not interested in faith, or hope. You want to taunt us, and try to get us to doubt our faith.

 

[Mark_Robert]

Being one of those intelligent people, I’d say all things are possible for those who make supplication to God with trust and love.

 

[Kuzushi]

Ricmat:

I am glad things worked out for you in relation to your employment. That is good news. However, as important as the things you mentioned are to you I am sure you would agree that to someone who has lost their eyes, legs, or arms it is far far worse. Just go to a veteran’s hospital and see some of the soldiers who have these devastating injuries. Their lives have been changed irreparably.

Don’t you think that logically if the creator of the universe is going to help anyone it would be one of these? It just doesn’t’ happen, and I am amazed that others are not scratching their heads over this. Every one of the fortunate things you mentioned could be easily credited to coincidence. Otherwise you would have a bishop knocking on your door investigating the miracle. I think you know this is true.

When I talk to young people entering college I always recommend they take a class in economics and elementary statistics regardless of their major. Why stats? It teaches you how things work, how to think, and it is one of the most real world math classes one can take. Read the book Innumeracy by John Allen Paulos. This book shows that what people often believe are miracles, blessings, and it the case of hot stock pickers, their own smart choices, are in reality just math.

Think of some of the absolute worse things that can happen to you; a child being taken and murdered, being seriously injured or killed in a car crash, etc. The odds of those things occurring to any one person are very small. There are a lot of weird and violent people out there, but the odds of someone who is extreme enough to harm a child ever encountering your child when he happens to be alone are very slim. I have personally been to car crashes where I thought everyone would be dead, and I soon realize all the people standing by the car are the passengers and driver. Cars are made better, people usually hit their brakes before collision and speeds are slowed.

In the old days many women died in childbirth. Due to medical science they just put the woman under and do a C-section. People live longer now. My point is that when negative things do not occur and when good things do occur they can very often be traced to a logical reason that has absolutely NOTHING to do with God’s intervention. It’s all stats.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

My point is that when negative things do not occur and when good things do occur they can very often be traced to a logical reason that has absolutely NOTHING to do with God’s intervention. It’s all stats.

And Who created the laws of statistics? If He ordained these laws, He can also work outside them.

If you don’t believe this, how can you call yourself Catholic?

 

[theistgal]

Be realistic here; if such a thing happened it would be all over the news and the person would be booked on Oprah! Besides, the obligation to prove that a miracle happened is on the one who claims it. Even the Catholic Church would agree with me on that.

Not necessarily.

First of all, realistically, there are plenty of people who would remain skeptical no matter how miraculous the cure/event was. (Richard Dawkins is on record as saying that if he saw a statue of the Virgin Mary wave its hand to him, he would not consider it a miracle but the inevitable result of chance.)

Second, I for one would not sully any gift God gave me by putting on Oprah.

Third, some people would be so happy to have their prayer answered that they would want to spend the rest of their lives in solitude praising God.

 

[Kuzushi]

If you really are a Catholic, and you can say “God never intervened in mine or your life.”
I have nothing more to say.

Well I was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church. I have never expressly rejected the Church, and I have never been a satin worshiper. So yes I am a Catholic. I am sorry to hear you have nothing more to say. I will miss your contributions.

You clearly are not interested in faith, or hope. You want to taunt us, and try to get us to doubt our faith.

I am just interested in the truth, my friend. I am not saying I know the truth just that I am looking for it. I sincerely apologize if I “taunted” anyone. That is NOT my intention. I respect ALL who post. I just ask you to do the same.

 

[ricmat]

Ricmat:

I am glad things worked out for you in relation to your employment. That is good news. However, as important as the things you mentioned are to you I am sure you would agree that to someone who has lost their eyes, legs, or arms it is far far worse. Just go to a veteran’s hospital and see some of the soldiers who have these devastating injuries. Their lives have been changed irreparably.

Yes, of course it’s worse. I wasn’t trying to one-up you on that. But I gave you examples of prayers that worked, albeit on a smaller scale than you demand.

Don’t you think that logically if the creator of the universe is going to help anyone it would be one of these?

No, why would you think that?

It just doesn’t’ happen, and I am amazed that others are not scratching their heads over this. Every one of the fortunate things you mentioned could be easily credited to coincidence.

So in my case, it’s a coincidence that my wife was secretly praying, and both our prayers were answered? One is perhaps coincidence, two is beyond coincidence.

Otherwise you would have a bishop knocking on your door investigating the miracle. I think you know this is true.

Bishops only investigate major miracles, not the small ones that occur daily in people’s lives.

When I talk to young people entering college I always recommend they take a class in economics and elementary statistics regardless of their major. Why stats? It teaches you how things work, how to think, and it is one of the most real world math classes one can take.

Well, I’m a retired electrical engineer, and I took courses in statistics. I have a pretty good understanding of how things work.

note: snipping your quote above because of length…

Of course, all kinds of good and bad things happen on their own, strictly by chance.

I’d like to repeat a couple of things.

1. All prayer is good, since it acknowledges God as our Creator, and establishes our humility as mere created beings. Humility is good for the salvation of the person doing the praying. I’ve seen people on EWTN say that X (some new infirmity) was the best thing that happened to them, because it humbled them - the first step in Wisdom on the road to everlasting life.
2. You seem to be demanding that God do certain things. If not for you, then for somebody else. At least once. To prove that miracles happen, and that prayer works. So you pick what we all agree are very unfortunate circumstances, and that then becomes the hoop that God must jump through in order to prove to you that prayer works, and it’s not all just coincidence. This is a lack of humility, and directly contrary to point number 1.
3. It is a miracle that we are here at all. That the universe exists, and that it continues in being from one moment to the next. It is a miracle that earth supports life. That we have life. That each time I breathe, there is air there to support it. That we (humans) can intelligently ponder these things and hold discussions with you. That we are God’s children, and that he can love us so much.

It just struck me that perhaps you should read the book of Job. It could be called the Book of Bad Things Happening. It’s pretty long, but at least read a summary of the whole thing and then read chapters 38-42.

This was another long post but I hope that it helps

 

[Kuzushi]

So in my case, it’s a coincidence that my wife was secretly praying, and both our prayers were answered? One is perhaps coincidence, two is beyond coincidence.

No not at all. People get pink slipped and get new jobs all the time especially in this economy. You are a bright guy who works in a technical field and you managed to find another in demand engineering job. What is so odd about that? You are seeing drama where it does not exist.

Bishops only investigate major miracles, not the small ones that occur daily in people’s lives.

Think about that. The phrase “small miracle” is mutually exclusive. I submit that ANY intervention in our lives by the creator of the universe is a miracle, and ALL miracles by definition are “major.”

Think about what had to occur for you to get that job. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so by God intervening it meant that he possibly made your resume fall out of the mail first, or maybe he changed the mind of the interviewer so he liked you more than the non-believer who interviewed before you. There is an infinite amount of ways God could have pulled this off. Don’t you see that any way you look at it ALL interventions are miraculous? It is just that some are more APPARANAT and those are the ones the Bishops investigate.

Priests hear people claiming God did this, God did that all the time. They just shake their head and say “that’s wonderful” but the priests don’t KNOW God was responsible for any of the things people claim. Odds, coincidence, peoples own hard work, favors from others etc. ALL can and do play a part in everyday life all day long!

You seem to be demanding that God do certain things. If not for you, then for somebody else. At least once.

No, no, NOT demanding. I am saying that within all the world and all this time during the coarse of normal events surely God would have grown back a leg, arm, even a finger or two. God either does miracles or he doesn’t. It looks to me that he is out of that business and we may be on our own.

It is a miracle that we are here at all.

I agree, and this is why I do think there is indeed a master creator somewhere. The idea that something as complex a DNA molecule just occurring by accident is the equivalent of a tornado going though a junkyard and leaving behind a fully functional Ferrari. You could have a gazillion tornados in a gazillion junkyards and it just will never happen.

Good post ricmat.

 

[jpjd]

Kuzushi,

As has been mentioned before by others in this thread:

• the purpose of prayer is intimacy with God.
• in prayer we should praise God for His awesomeness, thank God for our blessings, petition God for our needs and wants, and express contrition to God for our sins
• in prayers of petition, we ask God for what we want but leave ourselves open to His will

Your question was “Does prayer change things?” We like to think so, but the main point of prayer is that we trust in the Lord. We know the Lord loves us, and so we trust that in His love He will take care of us.

I think the question you should be asking is, Why do we pray? The answer is, Because Jesus told us to.
Why, because we learn to trust in the Lord, and allow Him to provide as He knows best.

 

[Kuzushi]

Surgery for amputation was essential. The foot was black and and nearly severed. We appealed to the Lord, right then and there. The foot not only did not gangrene, but, within 24 hours began to heal and pink up. It was shattered, but, her nephew did not lose it. Two of his buddies’ bodies were found tortured to death.

That is a sad and terrible story indeed, however, it proves my point even further. It is entirely possible that the two unfortunate soldiers who were tortured and killed had others praying for them. Hec, I am sure they prayed for the torture to stop. The reality is that your prayer for your nephew was “answered” but the prayers for and by the other soldiers was not. Does that make sense to you?

Furthermore, I am curious if herr nephew’s foot is 100%. The logical reality is that if God is going to heal someone, as he did according to the New Testament, they are totally restored. Do you see what I mean?

My heart goes out to that person.

 

[ricmat]

No not at all. People get pink slipped and get new jobs all the time especially in this economy. You are a bright guy who works in a technical field and you managed to find another in demand engineering job. What is so odd about that? You are seeing drama where it does not exist.

This happened when I was quite old and it was not so easy to get another engineering job. And I had been looking for quite a time before I decided to pray, after which, things happened very quickly. And we ended up exactly where my wife had been secretly praying for us to end up. There’s more drama there than you seem to admit.

Think about that. The phrase “small miracle” is mutually exclusive. I submit that ANY intervention in our lives by the creator of the universe is a miracle, and ALL miracles by definition are “major.”

My definition of “major” is one that you might agree is a miracle. I already had assumed that you wouldn’t see my events as miracles.

Priests here people claiming God did this, God did that all the time. They just shake their head and say “that’s wonderful” but the priests don’t KNOW God was responsible for any of the things people claim. Odds, coincidence, peoples own hard work, favors from others etc. ALL can and do play a part in everyday life all day long!

Yes, in my second story, I played a part in a small miracle for somebody else, because I prayed for it to happen. A favor to someone else as you put it.

No, no, NOT demanding. I am saying that within all the world and all this time during the coarse of normal events surely God would have grown back a leg, arm, even a finger or two. God either does miracles or he doesn’t. It looks to me that he is out of that business and we may be on our own.

Well, according to the gospels Jesus grew back an ear that had been chopped off. Instantly.

God is not out of the miracle business. But he doesn’t do it on demand. God is not a vending machine.

I agree, and this is why I do think there is indeed a master creator somewhere. The idea that something as complex a DNA molecule just occurring by accident is the equivalent of a tornado going though a junkyard and leaving behind a fully functional Ferrari. You could have a gazillion tornados in a gazillion junkyards and it just will never happen.

We do agree on this at least. If you don’t get around to reading Job (it might be good for your spirit in any case), The Privileged Planet is a wonderful book on the universe, and probabilities. And why it’s a miracle.

Perhaps I missed it in a previous post, but it seems that you are hung up on this particular issue of growing limbs…???

 

[ricmat]

Furthermore, I am curious if herr nephew’s foot is 100%. The logical reality is that if God is going to heal someone, as he did according to the New Testament, they are totally restored. Do you see what I mean?

Jesus totally restored people in order to prove that he also had the power to totally forgive sins. That he was totally God. Perhaps that isn’t necessary any more.

(sorry to jump in here).

 

[Kuzushi]

Well, according to the gospels Jesus grew back an ear that had been chopped off. Instantly.

God is not out of the miracle business. But he doesn’t do it on demand. God is not a vending machine.

Yes, if you are refering to the story of Jesus being arrested in the garden for his crucifixion the Bible claims Jesus picked up the old ear and placed it back on. There are A LOT of miracles written about in the Bible that no longer occur. The gospel writers are very placid about Jesus doing healings, but I imagine the scene was full of yells of joy stating “I can see,” “I can walk,” etc. Let’s face it that kind of thing just does not happen any more.

I know God is not a vending machine nor does he perform on command. I am making the logical point that if God does indeed grant prayer requests there would be SOME claims SOMEWHERE of arms and legs growing back since people claims he is involved in helping with financial matters and job opportunities like you have mentioned.

Christians go about their lives believing that they are entrusting the safety of their children and other loved ones to God’s care. We like to hope that those we love will not befall a predator, a terrible accident, or some deadly disease so we prays for this. I am of the opinion that it is all a waste of time. What others see as faith I see as hope. Unfortunately I just do not see that hope is real. When good thins happen people say “God blessed me” when it is very likely that this thing would have happened anyway. Likewise when tragedy strikes they say “it is God’s will.” Either way their logic is slanted to giving the benefit of the doubt to God.

It just doesn’t make sense.

 

[jazzbaby1]

I haven’t read any other replies yet, but I will say that the one thing most often changed in my life through prayer is me.

 

[Kuzushi]

I haven’t read any other replies yet, but I will say that the one thing most often changed in my life through prayer is me.

But there is no way you can KNOW it was the prayer. You can change yourself through motivational training, meditation, a quiet walk in the woods, etc.

Again, why is God only changing people in these nebulous uncertain ways? If miracles are flowing we should see some certain healings occur as I have described.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Again, why is God only changing people in these nebulous uncertain ways? If miracles are flowing we should see some certain healings occur as I have described.

Who are we to tell God how to do His job? Read the Book of Job.

 

[Kuzushi]

Who are we to tell God how to do His job? Read the Book of Job.

I have years upon years of Catholic school. I have read the book of Job.

Please re-read my contentions. Again, if God is indeed doing miracles as so many Catholics believe then in the normal course of things one would expect to see things like arms and legs growing back. It has nver been documented and this makes me suspisous of ALL prayer.