Does purgatory really exist?

[MariaG]

Why am I not surprised that after 19 pages, that except for Zooey , anyone not in communion with the Pope still can’t grasp the fact that the official teaching on purgatory has not been defined as a place at all?

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord after my instantaneous cleansing shower in the Blood of Christ! Amen.

 

[mmmcounts]

Purgatory isn’t biblical. It’s a story made up by Catholics who are long since dead and has been changed up a couple of times over the centuries. Unsaved people who really weren’t so bad used to have a place there, but they couldn’t get into heaven. Then it was a place for people who were saved, but they didn’t do their last rites right or something, so there was some tricky wording that got some people thinking they could be purified and then enter heaven but some people thought it looked more like they were in a state of eternal purification, ie. limbo, and not in heaven. (Of course, this is interpretation of human writing, not of anything in the Bible). That got cleared up after awhile- kind of, anyway- and now there’s official doctrine that I’m sure you’ve seen via the links by now, but there’s still plenty of room for interpretation of that stuff among Catholics. Anyway, Purgatory is not Biblical, it’s something made up by ordinary humans beings, and it’s become a part of “official church doctrine” that Catholics take a little too seriously. It’s not the Bible, people. And if it says stuff that contradicts Scripture, you shouldn’t be keeping it around. Anyway, the Bible tells you all you need to know about who goes where when they die, and purgatory is not involved. That’s it.

 

[Zooey]

Purgatory isn’t biblical. It’s a story made up by Catholics who are long since dead and has been changed up a couple of times over the centuries. Unsaved people who really weren’t so bad used to have a place there, but they couldn’t get into heaven. Then it was a place for people who were saved, but they didn’t do their last rites right or something, so there was some tricky wording that got some people thinking they could be purified and then enter heaven but some people thought it looked more like they were in a state of eternal purification, ie. limbo, and not in heaven. (Of course, this is interpretation of human writing, not of anything in the Bible). That got cleared up after awhile- kind of, anyway- and now there’s official doctrine that I’m sure you’ve seen via the links by now, but there’s still plenty of room for interpretation of that stuff among Catholics. Anyway, Purgatory is not Biblical, it’s something made up by ordinary humans beings, and it’s become a part of “official church doctrine” that Catholics take a little too seriously. It’s not the Bible, people. And if it says stuff that contradicts Scripture, you shouldn’t be keeping it around. Anyway, the Bible tells you all you need to know about who goes where when they die, and purgatory is not involved. That’s it.

Oh, good grief.
Where do they all come from??

 

[mlchance]

Oh, good grief.
Where do they all come from??

To paraphrase a former president, the problem with so many anti-Catholics isn’t that they’re ignorant, but that they know so many things that aren’t true.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Zooey]

To paraphrase a former president, the problem with so many anti-Catholics isn’t that they’re ignorant, but that they know so many things that aren’t true.

– Mark L. Chance.

And they know all the same things that aren’t true…

 

[Sir_Knight]

Purgatory isn’t biblical. It’s a story made up by Catholics who are long since dead and has been changed up a couple of times over the centuries. Unsaved people who really weren’t so bad used to have a place there, but they couldn’t get into heaven. Then it was a place for people who were saved, but they didn’t do their last rites right or something, so there was some tricky wording that got some people thinking they could be purified and then enter heaven but some people thought it looked more like they were in a state of eternal purification, ie. limbo, and not in heaven. (Of course, this is interpretation of human writing, not of anything in the Bible). That got cleared up after awhile- kind of, anyway- and now there’s official doctrine that I’m sure you’ve seen via the links by now, but there’s still plenty of room for interpretation of that stuff among Catholics. Anyway, Purgatory is not Biblical, it’s something made up by ordinary humans beings, and it’s become a part of “official church doctrine” that Catholics take a little too seriously. It’s not the Bible, people. And if it says stuff that contradicts Scripture, you shouldn’t be keeping it around. Anyway, the Bible tells you all you need to know about who goes where when they die, and purgatory is not involved. That’s it.

You need to back up what you just said. Go to the beginning of this thread and address all of the biblical passages presented which talk about purgatory. Until then, the bible has proved your opinion to be incorrect.

 

[rinnie]

You need to back up what you just said. Go to the beginning of this thread and address all of the biblical passages presented which talk about purgatory. Until then, the bible has proved your opinion to be incorrect.

Said very well. How can a statement be made like that when as you stated the passages have all been presented!

 

[mmmcounts]

Jesus took it a step further and said that even if we have any of these in our hearts we’re guilty of them. That’s why we may need God’s merciful gift of final purification.

That does not follow. It is not logically sound. You’re making a general statement about Jesus’ statements concerning sin and jumping from there to a very specific (and erroneous) teaching found within Catholic tradition but not the Bible. It does not follow. If you want to justify the latter part of the statement, you need to start with the appropriate source. Jesus is not the reason for the final purification tradition. The Bible is not the reason for it either. If you want to justify this tradition, you need to start with whatever it was that led to the existence of the tradition. If you start with Jesus, as you did, it does not follow from point A to point B. Begin at the appropriate starting point. That involves a who, a when, possibly a where, and definitely a why. Jesus is not the appropriate starting point for this tradition. It was someone else. Jesus doesn’t talk about God’s alleged merciful gift of final purification, and neither does anyone else in the Bible. So I’m very curious. Who was it?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Somebody needs to read Maccabees. . .

 

[mlchance]

Somebody needs to read Maccabees. . .

Can’t read it. It’s not actually part of the Bible. Catholics added it to the Bible as part of their efforts to mislead people, probably in cahoots with Constantine.



– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

OH. . .right. . .

Then they need to go to 1Corinthians, chapter 3, verse 15. . .

 

[rinnie]

Can’t read it. It’s not actually part of the Bible. Catholics added it to the Bible as part of their efforts to mislead people, probably in cahoots with Constantine.



– Mark L. Chance.

How could Catholics have added to the bible. If the Catholic Bible was the first bible written? In cahoots with Constantine? What does that mean?

 

[tobinatorstark]

this was in our weekly church bulletin taken from www.liguori.com Dear Padre, Is there reallly a purgatory after death? I’ve suffered so much this life Isn’t that enough?? Wearu

Dear Weary,

Yes, the Catholic Church teaches purgatory exists. But the Church doesn’t see purgatory as a punishment per se, although it does involve suffering. Rather the Church teaches that purgatory is a state of purification and healing see (On Christian Hope{Spe Salvia}, 45) When is the purification and healing enough? When they have helped each of us become fully and completely the wonderful human being God always meant us to be.
It may be that your pains have done their job, that heaven immediately awaits you. But suppose you didn’t have enough time for life and God’s grace to complete you personally? That is what purgatory is for. What is the pain of it? Some say it is Jesus himself present to us. Think of Saint Peter catching the eye of Jesus on the way to die, after Peter denied him. Peter wept bitterly, Luke’s Gospel says (see 22:62) That is like the purification of purgatory. Our love for Jesus pains and purifies us…
We Catholics pray for the souls in purgatory. We have masses said for them and bring the Mass cards to wakes and funerals. How consoling to be able to touch our deceased loved ones with the aid and comfort of the prayers and sufferings of Jesus and our own prayers and sufferings in union with us.
John, Hamrogue, C Ss. R.

 

[fhansen]

That does not follow. It is not logically sound. You’re making a general statement about Jesus’ statements concerning sin and jumping from there to a very specific (and erroneous) teaching found within Catholic tradition but not the Bible. It does not follow. If you want to justify the latter part of the statement, you need to start with the appropriate source. Jesus is not the reason for the final purification tradition. The Bible is not the reason for it either. If you want to justify this tradition, you need to start with whatever it was that led to the existence of the tradition. If you start with Jesus, as you did, it does not follow from point A to point B. Begin at the appropriate starting point. That involves a who, a when, possibly a where, and definitely a why. Jesus is not the appropriate starting point for this tradition. It was someone else. Jesus doesn’t talk about God’s alleged merciful gift of final purification, and neither does anyone else in the Bible. So I’m very curious. Who was it?

**Jesus tells us that we must be holy as God is holy, perfect as He is perfect, and assures us in the Sermon on the Mount that this cannot be a mere outward show of holiness but a genuine interior transformation, in case we didn’t get it. Most of us probably won’t achieve this goal prior to death, as Protestants generally agree, but Catholics believe we must achieve it prior to heaven and that God’s provided a way to help us achieve it as long as we’ve demonstrated sufficiently during life that our hearts are turned in love towards Him.

And since 2 Thess. 2:15 confirms that there exist non-written traditions within the Church-which makes sense -and since the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth”, then I could care less where specifically the tradition comes from as long as it’s a Catholic one.
**

 

[Mickey]

I do not see that Jesus says the rich man is scratched from the book of life here Mickey.

By this omission of the rich man’s name, He (the Lord) revealed a heavenly mystery. The name of such a rich man will be unknown in heaven. It will not be mentioned among the angels and saints; it will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
St Nicholai Velimirovich (on the parable of Lazarus and the rich man)

The rich man did not directly sin against God, he did not realize it. And he was sorry, and he was excepting what he got, he was being punished and did not say he did not deserve his punishment, which is repenting to me.

You are wrong. I am very surprised that you have such a skewed understanding of this parable. I wonder if all Roman Catholics have this odd understanding as you do? Perhaps I will start a thread on this.

Don’t you think that he was sincere

It was too late! Don’t you get it?!?

 

[rinnie]

By this omission of the rich man’s name, He (the Lord) revealed a heavenly mystery. The name of such a rich man will be unknown in heaven. It will not be mentioned among the angels and saints; it will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
St Nicholai Velimirovich (on the parable of Lazarus and the rich man)

You are wrong. I am very surprised that you have such a skewed understanding of this parable. I wonder if all Roman Catholics have this odd understanding as you do? Perhaps I will start a thread on this.

It was too late! Don’t you get it?!?

Well guess what Mickey, I believe I am not wrong. And I do agree what we should indeed open a new thread on this. If for nothing e;se maybe to show you not be quick to judge others opinions.

 

[Mickey]

Well guess what Mickey, I believe I am not wrong. And I do agree what we should indeed open a new thread on this. If for nothing e;se maybe to show you not be quick to judge others opinions.

I am not judging you. But I certainly am questioning your OPINION.

The Church fathers and your own catechism disagrees with you. Did you talk to your priest yet?

Here is the new thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=300904

 

[steve_b]

That does not follow. It is not logically sound. You’re making a general statement about Jesus’ statements concerning sin and jumping from there to a very specific (and erroneous) teaching found within Catholic tradition but not the Bible. It does not follow. If you want to justify the latter part of the statement, you need to start with the appropriate source. Jesus is not the reason for the final purification tradition. The Bible is not the reason for it either. If you want to justify this tradition, you need to start with whatever it was that led to the existence of the tradition. If you start with Jesus, as you did, it does not follow from point A to point B. Begin at the appropriate starting point.

YOU have been asked to start reading from the beginning of the thread.

• You’ll find purgatory IS scriptural.
• (T)radition is both oral & written. Both are absolutely authoritative. Written (T)radition AND oral (T)radition testify to purgatory.

m:

That involves a who, a when, possibly a where, and definitely a why. Jesus is not the appropriate starting point for this tradition. It was someone else. Jesus doesn’t talk about God’s alleged merciful gift of final purification, and neither does anyone else in the Bible. So I’m very curious. Who was it?

Ignorance of scripture is also ignorance of Christ.

Jesus said

:
Jn 16:

7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 **"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. **
**13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. **
**14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. **15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Therefore, when Paul says (emphasis mine)

:
1 cor 3:
11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, by Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14** If** what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

It’s the Holy Spirit taking from Jesus, and telling Paul what to say. Fire as you can see here, both destroys AND purifies without destroying (purgates). And purification will happen for EVERYONE on “the Day” NO ONE escapes final purification because in order to enter heaven everyone must be perfect. Some might need very little purification But The day you die you will be judged. If you are saved, (notice the ifs in the passage) you’ll go through final purification. Those who aren’t saved don’t go through purification. By definition, they go immediately to hell

 

[kotek]

I have reading the posts on this thread and I would like to thank Catholics who posted here (especially those who gave references to look up) . I left the Church and came back and ONE of the Dogmas I had trouble with, Purgatory, is now clear to me.

BUT, I still say that the classic “Reformed” view on Justification is the more Biblical one, HOWEVER, I see also that one NEEDS to be Sanctified as well. You cannot separate the two, IE one cannot be “Justified” without being “Sanctified” nor can one be “Sanctified” unless they HAVE BEEN Justified and are at peace with God positionally. God will not Sanctify those who have not been Justified IE in a Legal sense that the Righteousness of God demands.

Its not an “either/or” situation IE one either is “imputed with Christ’s Righteuosness” or “Infused with Christ’s Righteousness” but a “Both/And” situation. When one puts Faith and Trust in Christ as their Savior from Sin and the just wrath of God they deserve they are “Declared Righteous” and are “Imputed with Christ’s Righteousness” they are now positionally right before God, at the same time they are also Infused with righteousness by the Holy Spirit who then by Grace given us begins our Sanctification. So we are at the same “Justified” and “becoming Just” in reality. Thats why St. Paul is able to say "Having BEEN Justified by Faith we ARE at peace with God, he then goes on to talk about “being in the Spirit” (becoming Just or Sanctified.)

For many that “Sanctification” will not be complete in this life so Purgatory makes sense in that it completes our Sanctification. Purgatory is only for those who HAVE BEEN Justified, to complete what the Holy Spirit has begun in them, it is not a “second chance”.

 

[rinnie]

I have reading the posts on this thread and I would like to thank Catholics who posted here (especially those who gave references to look up) . I left the Church and came back and ONE of the Dogmas I had trouble with, Purgatory, is now clear to me.

BUT, I still say that the classic “Reformed” view on Justification is the more Biblical one, HOWEVER, I see also that one NEEDS to be Sanctified as well. You cannot separate the two, IE one cannot be “Justified” without being “Sanctified” nor can one be “Sanctified” unless they HAVE BEEN Justified and are at peace with God positionally. God will not Sanctify those who have not been Justified IE in a Legal sense that the Righteousness of God demands.

Its not an “either/or” situation IE one either is “imputed with Christ’s Righteuosness” or “Infused with Christ’s Righteousness” but a “Both/And” situation. When one puts Faith and Trust in Christ as their Savior from Sin and the just wrath of God they deserve they are “Declared Righteous” and are “Imputed with Christ’s Righteousness” they are now positionally right before God, at the same time they are also Infused with righteousness by the Holy Spirit who then by Grace given us begins our Sanctification. So we are at the same “Justified” and “becoming Just” in reality. Thats why St. Paul is able to say "Having BEEN Justified by Faith we ARE at peace with God, he then goes on to talk about “being in the Spirit” (becoming Just or Sanctified.)

For many that “Sanctification” will not be complete in this life so Purgatory makes sense in that it completes our Sanctification. Purgatory is only for those who HAVE BEEN Justified, to complete what the Holy Spirit has begun in them, it is not a “second chance”.

And remember one thing, I have said this on another site. You will never hear a Roman Catholic telling anyone they are going to hell.

In the words of the Pope we have to trust and rely on God Mercy, and pray pray pray for everyone we love.