Does purgatory really exist?

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tiggylou

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I don’t get the point of purgatory if Christ became a curse for us and hung on a tree to take away the punishment…which is death. Why do you need purgatory if you have the blood of Christ?
 
I have taken this excerpt from our very own Catholic Answers website. I hope this explanation clears it up 🙂

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
Purgatory
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The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).
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The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.
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Two Judgments
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When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).
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Augustine said, in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).
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Purgatory is not necessarily a punishment but a final purification process. Some of us die with flaws on our souls that need to be removed before we can enter Heaven. 🙂
 
Thank you for your time in replying…and I have looked though the suggested websites, and still find nothing to explain why the atonement of Christ is insufficient purgatory.

“Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.”

I copied the above from one of the websites, I agree that it is through repentance that you recieve grace. But no-one is ever worthy of heaven, thus the point of Christ dying. Plus, as the Old Testament clearly illustrates by way of sacrifice that it is through blood that one is cleansed. Therefore…why is the blood of Christ not good enough, and a further means of purification/punishment is needed,

I am sorry to be perdantic…but I am writing this for my dissertation, and I have spoken to catholic priests in person and none have given me an authoritive reason why the blood of christ doesn;t cover all sins. Because if he covers all sins…it is sin that makes someone guilty…
 
tiggylou said:
Thank you for your time in replying…and I have looked though the suggested websites, and still find nothing to explain why the atonement of Christ is insufficient purgatory.

“Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.”

I copied the above from one of the websites, I agree that it is through repentance that you recieve grace. But no-one is ever worthy of heaven, thus the point of Christ dying. Plus, as the Old Testament clearly illustrates by way of sacrifice that it is through blood that one is cleansed. Therefore…why is the blood of Christ not good enough, and a further means of purification/punishment is needed,

I am sorry to be perdantic…but I am writing this for my dissertation, and I have spoken to catholic priests in person and none have given me an authoritive reason why the blood of christ doesn;t cover all sins. Because if he covers all sins…it is sin that makes someone guilty…
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I think your difficulty arises from you starting from an erroneous premise - that of Christ’s atonement “covering” us, rather than transforming us into true images of Himself. If one begins with the belief that His atonement merely is a covering of our sins then Purgatory will, of course, be seen as an impossibility since there is no need for (possibility of) transformation. If, otoh, we are now able as Scripture teaches to be transformed by His Grace into images of Christ - and thus worthy (by His grace) of Heaven - then Purgatory is recognized as the suitable place for those who have yet to die fully to themselves and live solely for God.

The Father loves us so much that He wants us to resemble His Incarnate Son and so in His Mercy He gives us the grace to respond to all that He would have us be in this life and in the next. Purgatory is a continuing act of that Divine Mercy as He frees us through all the grace that flows from Christ’s One Sacrifice from all that yet hinders us from entering into the fullness of His Presence.

Here are a few more sites fyi:

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp

bringyou.to/apologetics/a94.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a127.htm
 
FCEGM said:
I think your difficulty arises from you starting from an erroneous premise - that of Christ’s atonement “covering” us, rather than transforming us into true images of Himself. If one begins with the belief that His atonement merely is a covering of our sins then Purgatory will, of course, be seen as an impossibility since there is no need for (possibility of) transformation. If, otoh, we are now able as Scripture teaches to be transformed by His Grace into images of Christ - and thus worthy (by His grace) of Heaven - then Purgatory is recognized as the suitable place for those who have yet to die fully to themselves and live solely for God.

The Father loves us so much that He wants us to resemble His Incarnate Son and so in His Mercy He gives us the grace to respond to all that He would have us be in this life and in the next. Purgatory is a continuing act of that Divine Mercy as He frees us through all the grace that flows from Christ’s One Sacrifice from all that yet hinders us from entering into the fullness of His Presence.

Here are a few more sites fyi:
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So a difference between imparted and imputed righteousness?
And if the grace was not finished in this life, but that was a ‘third place’ as Martin Luther refers to it, then why is it not talked of explicitely in the Bible? Because a large amount of RC teaching is on the premise of the existence of purgatory, such as penance and indulgences. Plus, purgatory was only made doctrine at the council of Trent in the 16th century, and the doctrine that it became did not resemble what the early church fathers refered to as a state of purification. Infact, from my reading, the doctrine of purgatory was established from the Indo-European tradition of divine fire from Greece and Rome, and also from the egyptian concept of fire and ice as forms of punishment in hell.
It seems to me that he concept is read into the bible in passages, which could be interpreted differently.
 
tiggylou said:
I don’t get the point of purgatory if Christ became a curse for us and hung on a tree to take away the punishment…which is death. Why do you need purgatory if you have the blood of Christ?
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Do you still sin now? Do you still have inclinations towards sin?

If so, how could you, as you are now, ever enter heaven?
 
The Church, created by God, is stamped with His Image. She resembles the Holy Trinity, because she is the Body of Christ, and Christ in His Humanity showed the invisibility of His Divinity.

The Church is triune: there is the Church Militant - the saints on Earth who pilgrim to Heaven and become holy like God by prayer and penance - and the Church Suffering - the saints in Purgatory who are assured of Heaven, yet still on pilgrim to the abode of God, as they undergo purging from sin to become holy in order to get into Heaven - and the Church Triumphant - the saints in Heaven who have reached Heaven and are holy like God.

Since the Church is one and eternal, all the saints profit one another by their prayers and sacrifices and merits: the Church Militant aids the Church Suffering by prayers, sacrifices, and indulgences and gives the Church Triumphant joy by honor and devotions; the Church Suffering aids the Church Militant by prayers and gives the Church Triumphant joy by extoling God’s Mercy; and the Church Triumphant aids the Church Militant and the Church Suffering by prayers and proffering their merits and gives the saints on Earth and in Purgatory joy by signifying the promise of Heaven.
 
VociMike said:
Do you still sin now? Do you still have inclinations towards sin?

If so, how could you, as you are now, ever enter heaven?
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If you tell lies… that makes you a liar.
If you hate your brother… that makes you a murderer. (1 John 3:15)
If you get drunk… that makes you a drunkard.
If you can’t forgive… that makes you unforgiven by God.(Mat 6:15)
If you have sex outside of marriage… you are a fornicator.
If you want what belongs to others… you are coveteous.
If you look at a woman with lust… you are an adulterer. (Mat 5:28)

Now… what does the Word of God say about these type of people?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So exactly which sins can be “purged” in purgatory when God explicitly says they shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
 
believers said:
If you tell lies… that makes you a liar.
If you hate your brother… that makes you a murderer. (1 John 3:15)
If you get drunk… that makes you a drunkard.
If you can’t forgive… that makes you unforgiven by God.(Mat 6:15)
If you have sex outside of marriage… you are a fornicator.
If you want what belongs to others… you are coveteous.
If you look at a woman with lust… you are an adulterer. (Mat 5:28)

Now… what does the Word of God say about these type of people?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So exactly which sins can be “purged” in purgatory when God explicitly says they shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
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Wow, that’s what happens when people try to understand Scripture outside of the Magisterium.

Tell me, have you ever committed any of the sins you list, even one time? If so, does that mean you’re not going to heaven?
 
believers said:
Okay… what kind of flaws exactly?
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I will try to say this as clear as possible, forgive me because I tend to wander with my words :o . The Church teaches that if someone dies in mortal sin, i.e. they die as an UN-repentant sinner, that person will go straight to Hell. If one dies repentant or sorry for their mortal sins, that person will either go straight to Heaven or will have to take a longer route to get to Heaven (Purgatory). What determines whether or not a person has to go through Purgatory first depends on how developed that person’s soul (character/personality) is. You see, Catholics believe that certain sins are much more grave than others. That’s why some are called mortal (highly grave/bad/serious) and some are called venial (not as grave, but still hurts your relationship with God and with others).

For example, murdering someone with full consent, will, and knowledge that murder is wrong would be considered a mortal sin. However having an attitude problem with people in general may not be mortal because such person probably would never want to physically hurt someone, but since they have a tendency to not behave so kindly with others, they have a personality flaw because of course our Lord Jesus would not want us acting this way towards our fellow humans. This would be considered a venial sin. This would need to be purged off our souls before we could enter the Kingdom of God. I hope this makes sense?
 
VociMike said:
Wow, that’s what happens when people try to understand Scripture outside of the Magisterium.

Tell me, have you ever committed any of the sins you list, even one time? If so, does that mean you’re not going to heaven?
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So tell me Voci… which part of what I just posted t is UNTRUE? Please point it out exactly. Thanks.

The TRUTH… THERE IS NO PURGATORY. The Bible says exactly where the unrighteous end up.

"They shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

BTW… I am still waiting on which sin will be purged in purgatory.
 
believers said:
If you tell lies… that makes you a liar.
If you hate your brother… that makes you a murderer. (1 John 3:15)
If you get drunk… that makes you a drunkard.
If you can’t forgive… that makes you unforgiven by God.(Mat 6:15)
If you have sex outside of marriage… you are a fornicator.
If you want what belongs to others… you are coveteous.
If you look at a woman with lust… you are an adulterer. (Mat 5:28)

Now… what does the Word of God say about these type of people?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So exactly which sins can be “purged” in purgatory when God explicitly says they shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
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Jesus took it a step further and said that even if we have any of these in our hearts we’re guilty of them. That’s why we may need God’s merciful gift of final purification.
 
jenlovesyu said:
I will try to say this as clear as possible, forgive me because I tend to wander with my words :o . The Church teaches that if someone dies in mortal sin, i.e. they die as an UN-repentant sinner, that person will go straight to Hell. If one dies repentant or sorry for their mortal sins, that person will either go straight to Heaven or will have to take a longer route to get to Heaven (Purgatory). What determines whether or not a person has to go through Purgatory first depends on how developed that person’s soul (character/personality) is. You see, Catholics believe that certain sins are much more grave than others. That’s why some are called mortal (highly grave/bad/serious) and some are called venial (not as grave, but still hurts your relationship with God and with others).

For example, murdering someone with full consent, will, and knowledge that murder is wrong would be considered a mortal sin. However having an attitude problem with people in general may not be mortal because such person probably would never want to physically hurt someone, but since they have a tendency to not behave so kindly with others, they have a personality flaw because of course our Lord Jesus would not want us acting this way towards our fellow humans. This would be considered a venial sin. This would need to be purged off our souls before we could enter the Kingdom of God. I hope this makes sense?
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That’s not what the Word of God says. Please read the post above and go to the verses I listed. These are not obscure verses. They are very explicit.
 
fhansen said:
Jesus took it a step further and said that even if we have any of these in our hearts we’re guilty of them. That’s why we may need God’s merciful gift of final purification.
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Please tell me which sin can be purged in purgatory?

This place in Revelation 21:8 is called hell.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
My next question… What is a liar? I’d like to know because these people also go to hell.
 
believers said:
That’s not what the Word of God says. Please read the post above and go to the verses I listed. These are not obscure verses. They are very explicit.
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The Word Of God does not outright say, “Purgatory exists.” Just like it does not say the word “trinity” (And yet we believe in the Holy Trinity). I think you should read the following Bible verses and explain to me how your interpretation is that of God’s and how The Catholic Church, which put the Bible together in the first place, is wrong…

2Pet 1:20
2Pet 3:16-17
 
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