Does purgatory really exist?

[believers]

The Word Of God does not outright say, “Purgatory is a SCAM! woe to those who believe in it.” Just like it does not say the word “trinity” (And yet we believe in the Holy Trinity). I think you should read the following Bible verses and explain to me how your interpretation is that of God’s and how The Catholic Church, which put the Bible together in the first place, is wrong…

2Pet 1:20
2Pet 3:16-17

(Edited)

If I’m misinterpreting… then please tell me what the following verse says.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[VociMike]

(Edited)

If I’m misinterpreting… then please tell me what the following verse says.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Can a former murderer be saved? Why or why not?

 

[tiggylou]

For example, murdering someone with full consent, will, and knowledge that murder is wrong would be considered a mortal sin. However having an attitude problem with people in general may not be mortal because such person probably would never want to physically hurt someone, but since they have a tendency to not behave so kindly with others, they have a personality flaw because of course our Lord Jesus would not want us acting this way towards our fellow humans. This would be considered a venial sin. This would need to be purged off our souls before we could enter the Kingdom of God. I hope this makes sense?

Does Jesus not say in Matthew 5:21-26, that even if you say ‘you fool’ or words to that affect…or if you are angry with him then you will still be judged and are in danger of hell. Therefore…Jesus does not make the distinction between this venial and mortal sin that the RC church does.

 

[tiggylou]

I hold my hand high and admit that I am not without sin…
…but I give praise, thanks and glory that there is forgiveness for any sin commited when repenance is given. This is the grace of God. Why would a merciful God, after giving me grace want to continue to punish/purifiy me…when he reconciled humanity through Christ on the cross?

 

[NonCatholic]

I don’t get the point of purgatory if Christ became a curse for us and hung on a tree to take away the punishment…which is death. Why do you need purgatory if you have the blood of Christ?

If you take away purgatory, then the whole “faith” falls apart; therefore it must exist. I believe it ties in with indulgences, but I’m not completely sure about that.

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. "

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

 

[VociMike]

I hold my hand high and admit that I am not without sin…
…but I give praise, thanks and glory that there is forgiveness for any sin commited when repenance is given. This is the grace of God. Why would a merciful God, after giving me grace want to continue to punish/purifiy me…when he reconciled humanity through Christ on the cross?

Then do you agree that you could not enter heaven in your present state? That you would need to have every trace of sinfulness removed before you could enter heaven? Or can sinful people enter heaven?

 

[rinnie]

I hold my hand high and admit that I am not without sin…
…but I give praise, thanks and glory that there is forgiveness for any sin commited when repenance is given. This is the grace of God. Why would a merciful God, after giving me grace want to continue to punish/purifiy me…when he reconciled humanity through Christ on the cross?

You answered that question for yourself. Because you are not without sin. There is no way anyone with sin can enter heaven. You can give praise, and glory to God all you want but you also must not sin. You are correct that we have been given grace from God but when we sin we fall from that grace that has been given to us. And we must confess our sins and repent as the bible says. If you continue to go to confession, and stay in the good grace of God and are in that good grace at the time of your death. You will have a real good shot of getting in fast. But how many people do not have sin, and die without any. I am not saying none do but not many. But the Church is here and the Priest has been left here from God to indeed help us. He has been given the power from God to take away our sins, but we must confess them and repent.

 

[rinnie]

Does Jesus not say in Matthew 5:21-26, that even if you say ‘you fool’ or words to that affect…or if you are angry with him then you will still be judged and are in danger of hell. Therefore…Jesus does not make the distinction between this venial and mortal sin that the RC church does.

Tell me how can you say that the RC makes the distinction not Jesus. Are the two not one in the same.

 

[believers]

Can a former murderer be saved? Why or why not?

Paul was a murderer and he repented.

 

[guanophore]

If you take away purgatory, then the whole “faith” falls apart; therefore it must exist.

Can you please explain this? I don’t understand it. Not everyone goes to purgatory, and it is avoidable, so I am missing your point.

I believe it ties in with indulgences, but I’m not completely sure about that.

Yes, indulgences function to set aside the temporal consequences of sin.

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. "

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

I think Paul did his purgatory before he died, which is recommended for everyone.

 

[guanophore]

Okay… what kind of flaws exactly?

The kind that Paul wrote about in Rom. ch. 7. Attachment to sin, and inclination to sin.

If you tell lies… that makes you a liar.
If you hate your brother… that makes you a murderer. (1 John 3:15)
If you get drunk… that makes you a drunkard.
If you can’t forgive… that makes you unforgiven by God.(Mat 6:15)
If you have sex outside of marriage… you are a fornicator.
If you want what belongs to others… you are coveteous.
If you look at a woman with lust… you are an adulterer. (Mat 5:28)

No, believers. You are confusing a wrongful deed with a wrongful lifestyle, and that is improper. If someone falls into a sin, then one can repent, be forgiven, and get back into right relationship with God. We see this with Peter denying the Lord. Peter did not make a lifestyle out of denial.

Now.. what does the Word of God say about these type of people?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So exactly which sins can be “purged” in purgatory when God explicitly says they shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Our sins are purged when we are forgiven by God. No one that commits a mortal sin, such as those listed here, will be found in purgatory.

Purgatory comes form the Latin “purgere” to purge, as by fire. It is purification. It is removing the consequences of sins that have already been forgiven.

1 Cor 3:14-15
14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

Those in purgatory are already saved, but if there are any works that are not fit for heaven, they will be burned away so that the soul can be pure.

The TRUTH… THERE IS NO PURGATORY. The Bible says exactly where the unrighteous end up.

"They shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

BTW… I am still waiting on which sin will be purged in purgatory.

You will be waiting a long time, since the sins of those in purgatory have already been put away by Christ.

(Edited)

believers, I think you have forgotten where you are. If you wish to post on CAF, then the forum rules require that you respect our beliefs, even if you dont’ agree with them. If you wish to speak about our beliefs in this manner, you will have to open you own website, and do it there.

You are welcome here, as long as you follow the forum rules. It is inappropriate for you to interfere with other members who are seeking sincere answers to their questions.

That’s not what the Word of God says. Please read the post above and go to the verses I listed. These are not obscure verses. They are very explicit.

They are, but irrelevant, since those in mortal sin do not obtain the benefit of purgatory.

Please tell me which sin can be purged in purgatory?

This place in Revelation 21:8 is called hell.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Purgatory is only for those who die in right relationship with God (faithful). Although the effects of mortal sin can be purged, the purgation is the transformation of humans into Christlikeness, so that we are fit for heaven. If you read down the chapter just a bit:

Rev 21:26-27
27 But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

My next question… What is a liar? I’d like to know because these people also go to hell.

I think that is off topic in this thread. Those hellbound do not get the benefit of purgation.

(Edited)

If I’m misinterpreting… then please tell me what the following verse says.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What is wrong is only your perception of the Truth. You do not understand the Catholic teaching on purgatory, and you are wrongly applying scriptures that are not related.

 

[guanophore]

if Christ became a curse for us and hung on a tree to take away the punishment…which is death. Why do you need purgatory if you have the blood of Christ?

Purgatory, or being cleansed so that we can be in heaven, is only for those who have been purchased by the blood of Christ.

tiggylou:

Why does the blood of Christ not cover the sins that people are meant to pay for in purgatory?

His blood has covered them, that is why they are there!

tiggylou:

Why does the blood of Christ not cover the sins that people are meant to pay for in purgatory?

(in any replies please state bible references and any other references, as they would be helpful, as this is what I am writing my dissertation on.)

Why would a Protestant choose to write on this topic? I suggest you start with the library here, then the Catechism.

I still find nothing to explain why the atonement of Christ is insufficient purgatory.

That is most likely because the Catholic Church does not believe or teach this. You have been misinformed about what Catholics believe. You are looking for something that does not exist.

“Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.”

I copied the above from one of the websites, I agree that it is through repentance that you recieve grace. But no-one is ever worthy of heaven, thus the point of Christ dying.

The Apostles taught that nothing unclean can enter heaven, therefore, we must be cleansed by Christ so that we are worthy.
Most protestants call this sanctification.

 Plus, as the Old Testament clearly illustrates by way of sacrifice that it is through blood that one is cleansed.  Therefore....why is the blood of Christ not good enough, and a further means of purification/punishment is needed,

The Blood of Christ is sufficient. It is applied to us in many forms, one of them by burning away anything that is not of Him.

I am sorry to be perdantic…but I am writing this for my dissertation, and I have spoken to catholic priests in person and none have given me an authoritive reason why the blood of christ doesn;t cover all sins. Because if he covers all sins…it is sin that makes someone guilty…

I hope you never find a priest that will purport such lies! Yes, Jesus’ blood covers our sins. The holy souls in purgatory are there because He has forgiven them of their sins.

So a difference between imparted and imputed righteousness?

Probably.

And if the grace was not finished in this life, but that was a ‘third place’ as Martin Luther refers to it,

Grace not finished? I think it is we, rather, who are unfinished.

 

[guanophore]

then why is it not talked of explicitely in the Bible?

You are proceeding from an erroneous assumption that everything necessary about our faith should be found explicitly in the Bible. Catholics see it there because the passages were written by those who taught the faith.

Because a large amount of RC teaching is on the premise of the existence of purgatory, such as penance and indulgences.

This is just a pile of pungent organic matter, tiggylou. Catholic teaching is based on Christ, not on purgatory, penance, and indulgences, which are actually peripheral doctrines. Where did you get so much misinformation about Catholicism?

Plus, purgatory was only made doctrine at the council of Trent in the 16th century, and the doctrine that it became did not resemble what the early church fathers refered to as a state of purification.

This is a baseless assertion, sorry. I don’t think you made it up yourself, though.

Infact, from my reading, the doctrine of purgatory was established from the Indo-European tradition of divine fire from Greece and Rome, and also from the egyptian concept of fire and ice as forms of punishment in hell.
It seems to me that he concept is read into the bible in passages, which could be interpreted differently.

Well, keep reading. You may find a book that tells the truth!

Have you considered doing your dissertation on something that you know a little bit more about? In order to be successful writing a dissertation, one must become an expert in one’s topic. It seems that most of what you “know” about Catholicism is falsehoods.

Does Jesus not say in Matthew 5:21-26, that even if you say ‘you fool’ or words to that affect…or if you are angry with him then you will still be judged and are in danger of hell. Therefore…Jesus does not make the distinction between this venial and mortal sin that the RC church does.

Jesus is describing the attitude of a man’s heart lacking love. The Catholic church does, in fact, teach that we must love our neighbor to be saved. Besides, you can still get to hell on a heap of venial sins. Starting with verbal abuse, it will not be long berfore the unrepentant lapses into worse sins.

I hold my hand high and admit that I am not without sin…
…but I give praise, thanks and glory that there is forgiveness for any sin commited when repenance is given. This is the grace of God. Why would a merciful God, after giving me grace want to continue to punish/purifiy me…when he reconciled humanity through Christ on the cross?

Because He loves you, and he disciplines every son whom he receives. Look at the thief on the cross! Why did Jesus not save him from his suffering? He could have taken His soul when He left. No, he left the thief there to suffer, even having his legs broken. These were the consequences of his sin. God forgives our sins, but sometimes, He knows it is best for us to pay the consequences so we can grow.

 

[VociMike]

Paul was a murderer and he repented.

Quite true. So, what sins can a saved person commit after having been saved, and still be saved?

 

[rinnie]

Quite true. So, what sins can a saved person commit after having been saved, and still be saved?

None! You must confess every sin and repent. You cannot enter heaven if you are in a state of sin!

 

[believers]

Purgatory comes form the Latin “purgere” to purge, as by fire. It is purification. It is removing the consequences of sins that have already been forgiven.

1 Cor 3:14-15
14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

I see you quoted from 1 Corinthians 3:14-15. It has nothing to do with Purgatory and everything to do with REWARDS in Heaven and building our temple. When taken in context, it is clear that Paul was referring to how we “build” our Christian Faith. He warns that we must build it on the foundation that he (Paul) has laid. Each individual Christian is responsible for building his/her faith based on the Word of God. In 1 Corinthians ch 3, Paul said he fed them the “milk”. That is referring to the milk of the Word of God (1 Peter 2:2). In other words, the basic fundamentals of the Word. As Christians, we are to feed upon the Word of God (the real Body of Christ) and grow into spiritual maturity and not remain as babies. However, as we build we are warned to feed ourselves (“build our temple”) with things like gold, silver, and precious stones which will stand the “test of fire”. If we build with such things as wood, hay, and stubble, they will burn up. This is to make manifest our work on earth by which we are rewarded in Heaven.

1Cr 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.

1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1Cr 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

1Cr 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Cr 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Look what God does if we defile the temple

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

 

[tiggylou]

Then do you agree that you could not enter heaven in your present state? That you would need to have every trace of sinfulness removed before you could enter heaven? Or can sinful people enter heaven?

I agree that I would not be able to if it were not for the blood of Christ. But because I accept as a free gift, which is not justified by works, that he died because of my sins, then I believe in the authority of Scripture that my sins are forgiven. I don’t believe in purgatory because I believe in Christ.

 

[VociMike]

I agree that I would not be able to if it were not for the blood of Christ. But because I accept as a free gift, which is not justified by works, that he died because of my sins, then I believe in the authority of Scripture that my sins are forgiven. I don’t believe in purgatory because I believe in Christ.

So people in heaven still sin and incline to sin? Are you sure about that?

 

[tiggylou]

You are proceeding from an erroneous assumption that everything necessary about our faith should be found explicitly in the Bible. Catholics see it there because the passages were written by those who taught the faith.

This is just a pile of pungent organic matter, tiggylou. Catholic teaching is based on Christ, not on purgatory, penance, and indulgences, which are actually peripheral doctrines. Where did you get so much misinformation about Catholicism?

This is a baseless assertion, sorry. I don’t think you made it up yourself, though.

Well, keep reading. You may find a book that tells the truth!

Have you considered doing your dissertation on something that you know a little bit more about? In order to be successful writing a dissertation, one must become an expert in one’s topic. It seems that most of what you “know” about Catholicism is falsehoods.

Jesus is describing the attitude of a man’s heart lacking love. The Catholic church does, in fact, teach that we must love our neighbor to be saved. Besides, you can still get to hell on a heap of venial sins. Starting with verbal abuse, it will not be long berfore the unrepentant lapses into worse sins.

Because He loves you, and he disciplines every son whom he receives. Look at the thief on the cross! Why did Jesus not save him from his suffering? He could have taken His soul when He left. No, he left the thief there to suffer, even having his legs broken. These were the consequences of his sin. God forgives our sins, but sometimes, He knows it is best for us to pay the consequences so we can grow.

And in teaching the faith…they could not have been more clear on doctrines that impact the RC sacraments?
Yes…I agree that RC teaching is on Christ…but from my experience of RC sermons, there has been an underlining assumption that purgatory exists.
As for where I get my information – largely from the readings of Tertullian, Cyrpian, Origen, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and others up until the Reformation period, among those who are writing about such prominent church figures.
As for my dissertation, I don’t think you are in a position to pass judgement on what I should or should not be writing. And the criticism, out of love I hope, is partly why i started the post. I know the passages that the RC state as referring to purgatory, and doctrine around it. I started the post because I simply wanted a reasonable answer as to why the blood of Jesus does not span to that of this third place.
The ‘theif’ on the cross was not saved from his suffering, because there are consequences to your actions on earth, but this does not mean he suffered in purgatory. Besides this is not a debate about theodicy.

I did not intend for this to end in an arguement…I am sincerely asking why Jesus’ blood doesn;t have an affect in a third place.

 

[tiggylou]

So people in heaven still sin and incline to sin? Are you sure about that?

No, people are not able to sin nor are inclined to sin in heaven