Does purgatory really exist?

[VociMike]

No, people are not able to sin nor are inclined to sin in heaven

Then what changes? One minute you’re on earth, inclined to sin, and the next minute you’re in heaven with no inclination to sin. That’s a big change. How did it happen?

 

[MariaG]

If you take away purgatory, then the whole “faith” falls apart; therefore it must exist. I believe it ties in with indulgences, but I’m not completely sure about that.

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. "

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

There is no definition of “time” in the teaching of purgatory. It is commonly thought of as spending “time” in purgatory. However, it could also instantaneous cleansing as the scripture above suggests.

 

[tiggylou]

Please understand I mean no offence with my stance against purgatory. Although I understand that protecting what you believe is a personal thing for anyone. I firmly believe that we serve one Lord Jesus Christ, whether Catholic or Protestant, and may he be the judge, not man.

However, I do not wish to continue a debate that is not answering my original query. I know that RC believe in purgatory, and I know protestants don’t. But I am trying to understand why the blood of Christ has no affect in purgatory.

As far as I gather so far, RC’s distinguish between the guilt and punishment of sin. Therefore, so I can be clear, where does the atonement of Christ fit into these two? Does he die for the guilt, or the punishment? Because if he dies for just the guilt, then why would we still be punished for something when we are not guilty of it. But if he dies for the punishment, then why do we still have to be punished in purgatory’s fire? If he dies for both, then what reside is left over that he left unsatisfied to God’s wrath? And if God’s wrath is satisfied, then the wager for sin is satisfied.

 

[tiggylou]

Then what changes? One minute you’re on earth, inclined to sin, and the next minute you’re in heaven with no inclination to sin. That’s a big change. How did it happen?

you died.

 

[VociMike]

you died.

No, death alone does not remove the inclination to sin. Death simply removes the soul from the body.

If death alone removed the inclination to sin, then are those in hell as pure and holy as those in heaven?

 

[tiggylou]

No, death alone does not remove the inclination to sin. Death simply removes the soul from the body.

If death alone removed the inclination to sin, then are those in hell as pure and holy as those in heaven?

If the soul is removed from the body - how is purification in purgatory done?

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, he had provided purification for sins,
But those in hell are not purified because they rejected Christ.

 

[guanophore]

I see you quoted from 1 Corinthians 3:14-15. It has nothing to do with Purgatory and everything to do with REWARDS in Heaven and building our temple. When taken in context, it is clear that Paul was referring to how we “build” our Christian Faith. He warns that we must build it on the foundation that he (Paul) has laid. Each individual Christian is responsible for building his/her faith based on the Word of God. In 1 Corinthians ch 3, Paul said he fed them the “milk”. That is referring to the milk of the Word of God (1 Peter 2:2). In other words, the basic fundamentals of the Word. As Christians, we are to feed upon the Word of God (the real Body of Christ) and grow into spiritual maturity and not remain as babies. However, as we build we are warned to feed ourselves (“build our temple”) with things like gold, silver, and precious stones which will stand the “test of fire”. If we build with such things as wood, hay, and stubble, they will burn up. This is to make manifest our work on earth by which we are rewarded in Heaven.

1Cr 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.

1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1Cr 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

1Cr 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Cr 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Look what God does if we defile the temple

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Nothing you have written here is at all incompatible with purgatory. What type of “works” do you think are going to get burned up, and the person be saved? Protestants believe in purgatory too, they just believe it happens “in the twinkling of an eye”.

 

[gtaliente]

Tiggylou,

I believe that you are honestly trying to understand why Catholics say that Christ’s blood was not enough. While I am by no means as learned as some others that post here, I believe that the easiest explanation is that Christ’s death on the cross and subsequent ascension into heaven opened up that gates of heaven that were previously closed to us. There is still work to be done on our part in order to get there. Some of that work can be completed in this lifetime (following our Lord’s teachings, penance for our sins, etc) and some, for some of us, can not (ie: purification). It seems to me that you are looking for somewhere in the Bible that specifically states “There is a place called Purgatory…” and short of that nothing will suffice to convince you of its necessity. You say you have read many of the Church Fathers’ writings and find them incompatible with current Church teachings. I believe that is your interpretation of what the Fathers’ taught.

 

[believers]

Nothing you have written here is at all incompatible with purgatory. What type of “works” do you think are going to get burned up, and the person be saved? Protestants believe in purgatory too, they just believe it happens “in the twinkling of an eye”.

Then you’re missing the point. It says “if any man’s work” be burned. You see, Christians, are required to be laborers for Christ while we are on earth. We actually do work… not for our salvation but because we are Christ’s servants. Therefore we do the work of a servant while building our Faith on the Word of God. We are servants and He is our Master. He gave us authority to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Word of God MUST abide in us as we do the work of our faith in love.

When we die in Christ, we go to be with the Lord. As it is written, in 2Cr 5:8 We are confident, *, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Our work is then judged and we are rewarded based on our work on earth.

There is no purgatory.*

 

[VociMike]

If the soul is removed from the body - how is purification in purgatory done?

How does the one relate to the other?

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, he had provided purification for sins,
But those in hell are not purified because they rejected Christ.

Ah, so it is not simply death that purifies. God is also involved.

You have just described purgatory.

 

[fhansen]

Please tell me which sin can be purged in purgatory?

This place in Revelation 21:8 is called hell.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

believers, could you clear something up for me? According to your theology, is a believer free of sin before admission into heaven because those sins are simply non-imputed to him or do you believe that one must be truly, ontologically changed and free of sin because we have individually renounced and triumphed over sin by the grace of God and thereby become “perfect as He is perfect” as a requirement for admission?

 

[guanophore]

I believe that you are honestly trying to understand why Catholics say that Christ’s blood was not enough.

Where is there a Catholic who says Christ’s blood “was not enough”? Show me, and I will show you an improperly catechized Catholic. This is not what the Church teaches.

 While I am by no means as learned as some others that post here, I believe that the easiest explanation is that Christ's death on the cross and subsequent ascension into heaven opened up that gates of heaven that were previously closed to us.  There is still work to be done on our part in order to get there.

I agree with this - His death is sufficient, but our work is not done.

  Some of that work can be completed in this lifetime (following our Lord's teachings, penance for our sins, etc) and some, for some of us,  can not (ie: purification).  It seems to me that you are looking for somewhere in the Bible that specifically states "There is a place called Purgatory..." and short of that nothing will suffice to convince you of its necessity.  You say you have read many of the Church Fathers' writings and find them incompatible with current Church teachings.  I believe that is your interpretation of what the Fathers' taught.

Purgatory is also a doctrine that has developed in the West, and is not found in this form in the Eastern Rites.

 

[guanophore]

Then you’re missing the point. It says “if any man’s work” be burned.

You are right. What “work” is it that might be burned?

You see, Christians, are required to be laborers for Christ while we are on earth. We actually do work… not for our salvation but because we are Christ’s servants. Therefore we do the work of a servant while building our Faith on the Word of God. We are servants and He is our Master. He gave us authority to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Word of God MUST abide in us as we do the work of our faith in love.

When we die in Christ, we go to be with the Lord. As it is written, in 2Cr 5:8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Our work is then judged and we are rewarded based on our work on earth.

There is no purgatory.

So, if all this work is done in faith, why would any of it need to be burned?

 

[guanophore]

I agree that I would not be able to if it were not for the blood of Christ. But because I accept as a free gift, which is not justified by works, that he died because of my sins, then I believe in the authority of Scripture that my sins are forgiven. I don’t believe in purgatory because I believe in Christ.

It is only because of Christ and His cleansing blood that we have the blessing of being purged and prepared for His Holy presence.

I will ask you the same question I asked believers. What “works” do you think will get burned?

And in teaching the faith…they could not have been more clear on doctrines that impact the RC sacraments?

I am sure it never occurred to them that the Holy Writings would be separated from the Sacred Traditions which produced them.

The Apostles passed on the faith, and it was received. They would never accept someone who tried to acquire it on their own, separated from the authority appointed by Christ.

Yes…I agree that RC teaching is on Christ…but from my experience of RC sermons, there has been an underlining assumption that purgatory exists.

I don’t doubt that.

As for where I get my information – largely from the readings of Tertullian, Cyrpian, Origen, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and others up until the Reformation period, among those who are writing about such prominent church figures.

Wow. How did you come out with such a twisted notion of what the Church believes and teaches?

As for my dissertation, I don’t think you are in a position to pass judgement on what I should or should not be writing.  And the criticism, out of love I hope, is partly why i started the post.

You are right. Just making a suggestion.

 

[guanophore]

I know the passages that the RC state as referring to purgatory, and doctrine around it.  I started the post because I simply wanted a reasonable answer as to why the blood of Jesus does not span to that of this third place.

I don’t think you will find one, because all the Catholics here who understand the Teaching on purgatory will tell you that it exists because of the blood of Jesus.

The ‘theif’ on the cross was not saved from his suffering, because there are consequences to your actions on earth, but this does not mean he suffered in purgatory.

No, and I did not mean to imply that he did, though he may have. My point is that he was saved, and promised paradise, but still had some suffering to do. He was suffering because it was the just reward for his crimes.

Besides this is not a debate about theodicy.

I did not intend for this to end in an arguement…I am sincerely asking why Jesus’ blood doesn;t have an affect in a third place.

Purgatory is not really a “place” as it exists outside of the space time continuum. It is more like a state, in which a person is purified and made fit to enter heaven.

No, people are not able to sin nor are inclined to sin in heaven

I am glad that we agree on this point. Do we also agree that some people die before they are completely made into the image of Christ?

Please understand I mean no offence with my stance against purgatory. Although I understand that protecting what you believe is a personal thing for anyone. I firmly believe that we serve one Lord Jesus Christ, whether Catholic or Protestant, and may he be the judge, not man.

I hope that you will be able to approach the subject without preconceived notions. It seems like you already have your mind made up on the matter, and are looking for an answer that does not exist (except in your own mind).

However, I do not wish to continue a debate that is not answering my original query. I know that RC believe in purgatory, and I know protestants don’t. But I am trying to understand why the blood of Christ has no affect in purgatory.

Ok. Perhaps you will find your answer not in what the Church teaches, or what Catholics believe, but where you have formed your question, which is in your own mind. Will you write your dissertation to answer this question/hypothesis you have formed? It might be best not to try to explore the facts at all. You are starting from a premise that cannot be addressed by facts, but only a fanciful opinion that comes from opposition to Catholicism.

As far as I gather so far, RC’s distinguish between the guilt and punishment of sin. Therefore, so I can be clear, where does the atonement of Christ fit into these two? Does he die for the guilt, or the punishment?

Jesus can take away both, but sometimes, He chooses to allow us to experience the consequences of our choices because it is in our best interest to do so.

Because if he dies for just the guilt, then why would we still be punished for something when we are not guilty of it.

It is hard for me to think about Purgatory as punishment, so I am not the best person to answer that. Purification and transformation are gifts that emanate out of the grace and mercy of God.

 But if he dies for the punishment, then why do we still have to be punished in purgatory's fire?

We need to be purified, because nothing unclean can enter heaven.

If he dies for both, then what reside is left over that he left unsatisfied to God’s wrath?

Purgatory is not about satisfying God’s wrath, but the perfection of the saints. Jesus paid the judgment at the cross.

And if God's wrath is satisfied, then the wager for sin is satisfied.

Yes.

you died.

ARe you one of those that believes that the tendency to sin is only in the body, and not the soul?

If the soul is removed from the body - how is purification in purgatory done?

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, he had provided purification for sins,
But those in hell are not purified because they rejected Christ.

This is actually a very good description of purgatory.

Do you believe that the soul cannot change if it is separated from the body?

 

[believers]

You are right. What “work” is it that might be burned?

So, if all this work is done in faith, why would any of it need to be burned?

Our works will be judged as to whether or not it is worthy of reward. We must always do our work as servants of Jesus Christ motivated by love and not selfish ambition or glory of men and praise from other people. We do all things as unto the Lord.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

 

[NonCatholic]

Our works will be judged as to whether or not it is worthy of reward. We must always do our work as servants of Jesus Christ motivated by love and not selfish ambition or glory of men and praise from other people. We do all things as unto the Lord.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

“Every man’s work shall be made manifest, for the day shall declare it because it shall be revealed by fire. And the fire shall test every man’s work of what sort it is.”

There’s coming a day when everybody’s work is going to be tested. It’s just like we’re all going to take our buildings up to heaven and God’s going to light them and see what’s left; wood, hay, stubble, whish, burns. Granite, marble and gold and silver do not burn. They’re not consumed. Every man’s work is going to be tested. Why? So God can determine what’s left and on what’s left, He’s going to do what? Punish you? No? Reward you, no punishment.

 

[believers]

“Every man’s work shall be made manifest, for the day shall declare it because it shall be revealed by fire. And the fire shall test every man’s work of what sort it is.”

There’s coming a day when everybody’s work is going to be tested. It’s just like we’re all going to take our buildings up to heaven and God’s going to light them and see what’s left; wood, hay, stubble, whish, burns. Granite, marble and gold and silver do not burn. They’re not consumed. Every man’s work is going to be tested. Why? So God can determine what’s left and on what’s left, He’s going to do what? Punish you? No? Reward you, no punishment.

Wood, hay, and stumble will burn. Gold, silver, and precious stones will not. Our work on earth will be made manifest and rewarded accordingly. There’s no punishment here… only rewards.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

 

[tiggylou]

Ah, so it is not simply death that purifies. God is also involved.

You have just described purgatory.

It is Christ’s death that purifies…not ours. There is nothing that we can do that will make us right in the eyes of God…because otherwise it is earning our salvation, and we are not saved by works.
And just because the bible says purification, does not mean that equals a third place. It is Jesus’ blood that purifies.

 

[tiggylou]

It is only because of Christ and His cleansing blood that we have the blessing of being purged and prepared for His Holy presence.

is Christ’s blood is cleansing then, which would make you clean, then why do you also need to be purged? I do not understand the distinction that you are drawing between two forms of ‘cleansings’. Why would someone need to be cleansed twice…was the first cleansing not good enough?

I am yet to come across a protestant who believes in purgatory. I do not doubt that some would believe in it…hedge there bets, buy an indulgence, but it is not doctrine that is taught on…certainly not at bible colleges in England anway.