Does purgatory really exist?

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tiggylou said:
The ‘church’ in 1 Tim 3:15, is talking of the people of God who believe in Jesus. It’s the people that make the church not the institution or 4 walls…and the Lord knows who those people are. To make that fit the RCC excludes those who do not take the authority of the pope - but still take the authority of Jesus…which is the criteron of being the people of God - not believing in the pope.
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That’s not what the bible christians believed as evidenced by the writings still in existence from the first through seventh centuries. These writers learned the Gospel orally (just as Jesus taught it) directly from the Apostles, this is called Apostolic Tradition as opposed to man-made traditions starting from the leader of the protesters, the ex-priest Martin Luther in the 1500’s

The teachings reflected in these writings mention the sacraments of the Catholic Church - the Mass, baptism (as necessary for entrance into the Church), confirmation, also belief in the possibility of losing one’s salvation, the necessity of doing good works (So faith by itself, if it has noworks, is dead. - James 2:17), purgatory - just for a short list.

If one doesn’t believe this all he has to do is research the early Christian writers & the evidence is voluminous.
 
The easiest way to sum up purgatory is we are going to pay for ours sins. Either in this life or the next. If someone has not fully repented he will spend time in purgatory.

I personally feel we are all going to spend time in purgatory. Here is why, Think about it, we meet God he judges us, he lets us know our sins. Lets say we are sorry, okay now here is the kicker, are we really sorry? See you can’t fool God, So if we are truely sorry and havent repented in this world he forgives us our sins, but forgiving does not mean we do not have to repent. Now lets say we do something to offend God and don’t even realize it. Now he calls us on it. We ask him for forgiveness now its up to him to either give it to us or not. If we are really sorry he forgives us but we must still repent. See!
 
FCEGM said:
Purgatory was always universally appreciated by the Church since earliest times, and was part of the Apostolic Deposit of Faith. This is very clear in the writings of the early Church fathers.
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I disagree.
FCEGM said:
So, when it comes to Purgatory, it is very clear that the Church always and universally possessed an organic belief in the doctrine
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I disagree.
 
FCEGM said:
Secondly, the reason that the authors of the New Testament did not bother to explicitly dwell on the mystery known as Purgatory is because neither Jews nor early Christians (most of whom were Jewish) had a problem with the concept that some kind of purification or purgation (that is, a continuation of sanctification) continued for some people after death.
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Why does the Roman Catholic Church sometimes refer to purgatory as punishment?
 
tiggylou said:
The ‘church’ in 1 Tim 3:15, is talking of the people of God who believe in Jesus. It’s the people that make the church not the institution or 4 walls…and the Lord knows who those people are. To make that fit the RCC excludes those who do not take the authority of the pope - but still take the authority of Jesus…which is the criteron of being the people of God - not believing in the pope.
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JWs “take the authority of Jesus” as far as they’re concerned.
 
Think of it this way, remember the rich man, How he wanted to come back and show his brothers. Now he was not in hell, hell is total separation from God. But he was not in heaven either. Now purgatory isn’t exactly a fun place to be either, because if it was, why did he want to warn his brothers. Now don’t confuse purgatory with hell either. If you go to hell, that total separation from God, its over. Purgatory means you still have some repenting to do. Now yes its not fun, but its not hell either. ITs temp. punishment for ours sins. Hell is forever punishment. Its over you are not sorry, you did not accept God, and you made your choice.
 
tiggylou said:
I have not heard of a single person who has claimed this perfection, which the RCC has not declared a heritic. How does one gain this level of perfection required? By becoming a hermit so that all temptations are taken away? But then you do not do the will of God by going out and spreading teh good news. I cannot see how someone in this life can ever reach the perfection that God requires…because if they did…they would have been able to keep the law in the OT and then there would have been no need for Jesus.
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The perfection I’m speaking of is only made possible by the work of Jesus.
 
rinnie said:
Think of it this way, remember the rich man, How he wanted to come back and show his brothers. Now he was not in hell, hell is total separation from God. But he was not in heaven either. Now purgatory isn’t exactly a fun place to be either, because if it was, why did he want to warn his brothers.
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So then Lazarus must have been in purgatory also? Is there a pleasant purgatory and a painful purgatory?
rinnie said:
Purgatory means you still have some repenting to do.
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We repent in this world. It is too late to repent after we die.
 
rinnie said:
Think of it this way, remember the rich man, How he wanted to come back and show his brothers. Now he was not in hell, hell is total separation from God. But he was not in heaven either. Now purgatory isn’t exactly a fun place to be either, because if it was, why did he want to warn his brothers. Now don’t confuse purgatory with hell either. If you go to hell, that total separation from God, its over. Purgatory means you still have some repenting to do. Now yes its not fun, but its not hell either. ITs temp. punishment for ours sins. Hell is forever punishment. Its over you are not sorry, you did not accept God, and you made your choice.
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Now think about it mickey. Go back and read it. Now he was talking to Abraham. We know Abraham was not in hell, Now does that not show you right there, there has to be a in between place. Now in order to go to hell you are not sorry for your sins. Now he was sorry, and had remorse because he had the love to want to warn his brothers. But remember what Abraham said to him. If you go back and read this, it will all make sense.
 
FCEGM said:
Luther was simply wrong - or just ignoring what he knew to be true, and thus lying. You decide.
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This is what I am writing about. My paper is on whether Luther’s claim that he goes back Augustine is true or not. Purgatory is actually just a small part…as a lead up to indulgences. However - in Luther’s 95 theses…he does not disagree with purgatory, penance or indulgences…so in that sense, he cannot be a liar. In fact, he upholds them…he just disagreed with the abuses of them. It was not until later in this theology that he broke from the catholic church.

Your opinion on luther is interesting, and if you know of any books that support your view I would be really interested to know…no websites though…as they don’t hold the same weight as something that has an editor, as any tom, dic and harry can post on the internet.
Thanks
 
Mickey said:
Why does the Roman Catholic Church sometimes refer to purgatory as punishment?
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Because the one in Purgatory is experiencing - for however long or short - the pain of not giving oneself totally to God while on earth. It is a chastisement for the benefit of the soul that it may recognize its need for God more fully than it has heretofore. The soul has gone about its way often heedless of the ramifications to it’s eternal life in such lack of care for its call to intimacy with God in Christ and now is encountering - no longer darkly - the Divine Love that bears no rival.
 
Mickey said:
Why does the Roman Catholic Church sometimes refer to purgatory as punishment?
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That’s a good question. I think only the Council of Lyons way back in 1274 ever used the word “punishment,” and even then it was qualified with the adjective “cleansing.” In effect, it should have put in the Latin Catholic mind the scriptural idea of chastisement already spoken of in the book of Hebrews, instead of the retributive image to which the lay Latin has been accustomed. After Lyons, I do not find any conciliar or magisterial documents from the Latin Church referring to “punishment” per se that could have led to the understanding that many Latins seem to have that the pains due to our sins are the result of God’s retribution, instead of the purifying chastisement spoken of in the book of Hebrews.

The Council of Trent does not even mention “punishment,” and specifically warned against spreading the more controversial aspects of the doctrine of Purgatory. Maybe it was bad catechesis, or the popular and pious lay understanding somehow dominating the actual teaching of the Latin Church? Or maybe it was a popular overreaction to the extremes of Protestantism which denied Purgatory altogether?🤷

I must say that the conciliar documents (as distinct from popular, pious opinion) seem pretty spot on.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
You have to look at luther in different ways. You must remember Luther was a Catholic. He did agree with the teachings of the Church. At first. THen somehow he went nuts. Personally my view on him is simple. He fell from Grace. He was to have said to be tormented by voices. etc. But the bottom line is he turned away from the Church. Now look at it this way if you believe that the Church is Catholic, and the Church is Christ himself. Then who did luther turn away from?
 
Mickey said:
Why does the Roman Catholic Church sometimes refer to purgatory as punishment?
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The concept of punishment has been corrupted by humanity. God’s punishment is only ever trial intended to make us better, it is never just pain inflicted as a result of wrath. So if what it takes to make us perfect involves pain (and we know that this is often the case here on earth, so we should not be surprised if it might also be the case after death), it doesn’t matter if we call it punishment or purification, because it is exactly what we need to finish the job we did not finish here on earth.
 
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