Does purgatory really exist?

[Mickey]

Uh-huh. So prayers that acknowledge that the dead need prayers for their purification are thus meaningless, because a) they are either in Heaven and thus don’t really need the prayers since, being in Heaven, they ARE pure, or b/ they are in Hell and cannot be helped by the prayers.

Your sarcasm aside—we pray for the dead so that the Lord will have mercy on whom he may. You and I do not know who goes where. It is a great mystery to us.

It is enough to pray for them. We do not need to worry if they might be suffering in some kind of temporary or middle state.

 

[rinnie]

Dear Rinnie,

I don’t understand how you can use the parable of the Rich Man to prove Purgatory. The parable asserts that Abraham told the Rich Man that there was an UNBRIDGEABLE gap between where Abraham was and where the Rich Man was. That doesn’t sound like Purgatory to me.

I would use the parable of the unforgiving servant as proof. In the Coptic Tradition, the parable of the unforgiving servant is often used in catechetical lectures and homilies to indicate that state between death and the final reward where a soul can “pay the last farthing.” Of course, Orientals don’t generally use the Latin word to refer to that state (i.e., “Purgatory”).

Blessings,
Marduk

What my point is There is no way that you could be in hell (eternal separation from God and see the kingdom of heaven) If the Rich man was in hell there is no communication with the righteous. TOTAL SEPARATION. He was in torment, temporary torment. Had to be. Purgatory is for people who have un -repented sins. If you have repented your sins, and had none, why would you have to have the final cleansing? What is being pure and clean. Means you have asked for forgiveness for your sins, repented and are cleansed from them. No need for purgatory then. I agree with the one Post the Blessed Mother is all I can see who was sinless and got the free pass. I am not saying others did not but she is the only one I could say for sure. But my point is there is no way someone in hell could ever see Abraham.

 

[rinnie]

Your sarcasm aside—we pray for the dead so that the Lord will have mercy on whom he may. You and I do not know who goes where. It is a great mystery to us.

It is enough to pray for them. We do not need to worry if they might be suffering in some kind of temporary or middle state.

But mickey you are contradicting yourself. If when we die its heaven or hell why pray for the dead at all. Heaven your in, hell your out that the teaching of Christ. Hell eternal suffering. Eternal forever, and ever and ever and ever. Heaven eternal happiness with God forever and ever and ever. Why pray at all then. It has never been said that someone could be prayed out of eternal suffering, and it has never said that someone can go to heaven and then sin. So again according to your reasoning it does not make sense to pray at all, But love your effort! Just cant understand your reasoning! Do me a favor Mick ask Father?

 

[Mickey]

Purgatory is for people who have un -repented sins. If you have repented your sins, and had none, why would you have to have the final cleansing?

Again, you cannot repent after you die. Repent today!

 

[rinnie]

Again, you cannot repent after you die. Repent today!

Okay nick my good buddy gotta call you on that one. Show me in the bible or in the teachings of the Church it says you cannot repent after death.

 

[ryanoneil]

So you also believe the rich man was in purgatory?

I don’t know for sure.

 

[Mickey]

But mickey you are contradicting yourself.

No I am not. Do you believe that God is restricted by time and space? God can use our prayers however he wishes. I do not need to believe in a purgatorial state to have my prayers applied to my departed loved ones.

Why pray at all then.

I am very saddened that you said this.

It has never been said that someone could be prayed out of eternal suffering

St Isaac the Syrian said it–and I believe a few other saints. (just for the record)

So again according to your reasoning it does not make sense to pray at all

No. It is you who are putting these words into my mouth and it is a shame that you have resorted to this. It would be sad if I were forced to put you on my ignore list.

 

[Mickey]

Okay nick my good buddy gotta call you on that one. Show me in the bible or in the teachings of the Church it says you cannot repent after death.

First I am mick, and now I am nick. What’s up with that? Anyway, I believe it is also a teaching of your Church. Am I right Mardukm?

 

[Mickey]

I don’t know for sure.

Fair enough.

 

[dcdurel]

Again, you cannot repent after you die. Repent today!

What about those who reject the Church Jesus founded, and instead make up their own doctrines?

Are they all going to hell?
Thus, if they are partially ignorant, thus not mortally sinful for rejecting His Church, they must be purified of their sins in purgatory. And since they have not repented and joined His Church, they still have sin on their souls when they die.
Jesus said we must love God with our whole mind, heart and soul. Do you do that perfectly. Do you intend to do that perfectly at all times? Do you get angry at others and not repent? Do you love perfectly and intend always to love perfectly? How can you repent if you don’t intend to love God and neighbor perfectly? Thus, you have to be purified of these sins to enter heaven.

Jesus died to take away eternal punishment. He did not die to take away temporal punishment.
If there was no longer temporal punishment, then no humans would have to die. But we do die because of Adams sin. So even though Jesus died to atone for Adams sin, there is still temporal punishment which all men experience on earth. Thus, even with our mortal sins, which are forgiven, their is temporal punishment due to purify us.

 

[Mickey]

Okay nick my good buddy gotta call you on that one. Show me in the bible or in the teachings of the Church it says you cannot repent after death.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

393
It is the *irrevocable *character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, **just as there is no repentance for men after death.”**272

 

[rinnie]

No I am not. Do you believe that God is restricted by time and space? God can use our prayers however he wishes. I do not need to believe in a purgatorial state to have my prayers applied to my departed loved ones.
I am very saddened that you said this.

St Isaac the Syrian said it–and I believe a few other saints. (just for the record)

No. It is you who are putting these words into my mouth and it is a shame that you have resorted to this. It would be sad if I were forced to put you on my ignore list.

I did not try to offend you or put words into your mouth. This is what I said. When a person dies he either goes to heaven or hell. According to you. because you say there is no Purgatory, What I said is then according to your logic what good would our prayer do then, Because you cannot pray someone out of hell Mick. According to the ccc Gehenna is an unquenchable fire.

To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting Gods merciful love means remaining separated for him for ever by our own choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called HELL. That is the teachings of the church.

Now why would that put me on the ignore list Mick?

 

[Mickey]

What about those who reject the Church Jesus founded, and instead make up their own doctrines?

Are they all going to hell?
Thus, if they are partially ignorant, thus not mortally sinful for rejecting His Church, they must be purified of their sins in purgatory. And since they have not repented and joined His Church, they still have sin on their souls when they die.
Jesus said we must love God with our whole mind, heart and soul. Do you do that perfectly. Do you intend to do that perfectly at all times? Do you get angry at others and not repent? Do you love perfectly and intend always to love perfectly? How can you repent if you don’t intend to love God and neighbor perfectly? Thus, you have to be purified of these sins to enter heaven.

Jesus died to take away eternal punishment. He did not die to take away temporal punishment.
If there was no longer temporal punishment, then no humans would have to die. But we do die because of Adams sin. So even though Jesus died to atone for Adams sin, there is still temporal punishment which all men experience on earth. Thus, even with our mortal sins, which are forgiven, their is temporal punishment due to purify us.

Jesus died for all sins–not just specific sins. We are called to love the Lord and believe in His saving grace. We are called to repent and participate in Christ’s healing sacraments. God is all merciful and His love is beyond comprehension. We are all sinners, but I am not about to start judging and comparing myself to others like the pharisee did to the publican.

You have free will and are permitted to believe in purgatory if you wish.

I do not accept this doctrine. May God have mercy on this wretched sinner.

 

[Mickey]

what good would our prayer do then

I have already ansewred your questions. If you do not accept it–so be it. Furthermore, I have also proved that your catechism says you cannot repent after death.

All prayer is beneficial. God uses it how He wishes.

For you to say that it makes no sense to pray at all (according to my reasoning) is uncharitable and dishonest.

May God forgive you.

 

[rinnie]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

393
It is the *irrevocable *character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, **just as there is no repentance for men after death.”**272

You are talking about mortal sin Mickey. Not venial. these angels turned to the devil. They refused Christ. They are fallen angels who freely refused to serve God and his plan. They refused to accept Christ that is a mortal sin, you cannot die in mortal sin, if you are in mortal sin purgatory is out.

 

[Mickey]

You are talking about mortal sin Mickey. Not venial. these angels turned to the devil. They refused Christ. They are fallen angels who freely refused to serve God and his plan. They refused to accept Christ that is a mortal sin, you cannot die in mortal sin, if you are in mortal sin purgatory is out.

Read it again dear.
"…just as there is no repentance for men after death."

 

[rinnie]

I have already ansewred your questions. If you do not accept it–so be it. Furthermore, I have also proved that your catechism says you cannot repent after death.

All prayer is beneficial. God uses it how He wishes.

For you to say that it makes no sense to pray at all (according to my reasoning) is uncharitable and dishonest.

May God forgive you.

If I said something to offend God I also pray that he will forgive me. Becasue I would never offend God. I never said not to pray at all. you can go back and read what I said Mick. but you insist on putting words in my mouth. I said what you said makes no sense to me. If that is offending God, then show me how. I said and I will repeat one more time is there is no purgatory and its heaven or hell, and if a person rejects God and chooses hell, according to the teachings of the Church, there is no out. You are there and no one can pray you out. And if someone is in heaven they are at home in Christ. cut and dry mick. So to pray for the dead there has to be another place. Purgatory.

 

[Mickey]

I said what you said makes no sense to me. If that is offending God, then show me how.

Did I say you offended God? You offended me and I asked God to forgive you. I will accept that what I say makes no sense to you. That is much better than saying that I believe “it makes no sense to pray at all”. I forgive you and so does God. You have been mistaken on your points regarding Lazarus and the rich man and repentance after death. You have not proved anything to me.

So to pray for the dead there has to be another place. Purgatory

Wrong. But what I say to you makes no sense so I will leave this thread.

Blessings on your journey.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Sir Knight;4630703:

For if we sin willfully after

we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

This refers to apostacy from the truth…not purgatory.

Where does it say that? If says if we SIN!

And “fiery indignation” refers to purgatory. What else could it refer to? It can’t refer to hell because the bible tells us that even the most pious among us sins at least seven times a day. If it referred to hell, then that would mean that no one would go to heaven.

 

[mardukm]

First I am mick, and now I am nick. What’s up with that? Anyway, I believe it is also a teaching of your Church. Am I right Mardukm?

I believe brother Mickey is correct.

Blessings,
Marduk