Does purgatory really exist?

[steve_b]

Well, you’re about to learn something else. In the source you gave me, it talked about the Old Testament and said it was written in Hebrew. This is only true if you exclude the apocryphal books, because 6 of the 7 were written in Greek and the other was written in Latin. **Jews did not ever call them sacred scriptures. **

Depends on which Jews you’re talking about

The OT

• was translated into Greek because the Jews were not speaking hebrew in the diaspora. There were more Jews in the diaspora than there were in Palastine.
• Greek was the language of the NT. Therefore, all the quotes from the OT in the NT, came from the Septuagint which is the Greek translation.

m:

They existed, but they were not included as the Word of God. So now you know what makes those 7 books different from the Septuagint.

The Jews that selected the OT sans the 7 books were called blind guides, hypocrits, whitewashed tombs by Jesus. These are the guys YOU followed in selecting your scripture. The Church Jesus started selected the Septuagint.
m:

The true Old Testament books were translated from Hebrew to Greek, while the apocryphal books were originally written in Greek (except the one that was in Latin), they had never been included as true Scripture before, and they were added in when they shouldn’t have been. So now that you know this, you can never again say the apocryphal books are just the same as all the other ones, and

As I said before, you really don’t know where you got the bible. The Church decides, NOT the pharisees and scribes of the 1st century.

Jesus is the reason for the OT. HE is the word of God they were proclaiming. HE is the one they looked forward to. And the Jews you follow missed the entire program when He came among them. They missed Him completely!!! The Jews I follow, Jesus and His apostles and ALL the ones who followed and were ordained by THEM, selected the Septuagint.
m:

You can also never again say silly things like “You Protestants just ripped those books out because you didn’t like them.” You’ve failed miserably in your task of finding out what makes the 7 apocryphal books different from the true OT, and **you’ve shown yourself to be ignorant of the reasons for excluding them. Now you know the facts, **and your best bet is to deal with them instead of just continuing to ignore them.

How does it feel to be following the pahrisees and scribes of the 1st century that killed Jesus? The ones who Jesus called blind guides, hypocrits and whitewashed tombs, serpents, brood of vipers, who won’t escape the sentence of hell? Jesus said to these fools (His term not mine) , behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous )Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. They appear.clean on the outside but they are full of dead mens bones on the inside. You my friend are the ignorant one. These are the ones YOU follow. They don’t accept THOSE 7 books. This is your Protestant heritage. Now YOU know the facts.

Now let’s get back to the topic of the thread…Purgatory

 

[mmmcounts]

1. Once-saved-always-saved is a blatant falsehood, and 2) We will be called to account until the last penny is paid.

Comments?

1. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

• Jesus

 

[paul_c]

Well, you’re about to learn something else. In the source you gave me, it talked about the Old Testament and said it was written in Hebrew. This is only true if you exclude the apocryphal books, because 6 of the 7 were written in Greek and the other was written in Latin. Jews did not ever call them sacred scriptures. Do you understand that? Ever. They existed, but they were not included as the Word of God. So now you know what makes those 7 books different from the Septuagint. The true Old Testament books were translated from Hebrew to Greek, while the apocryphal books were originally written in Greek (except the one that was in Latin), they had never been included as true Scripture before, and they were added in when they shouldn’t have been. So now that you know this, you can never again say the apocryphal books are just the same as all the other ones, and

You can also never again say silly things like “You Protestants just ripped those books out because you didn’t like them.” You’ve failed miserably in your task of finding out what makes the 7 apocryphal books different from the true OT, and you’ve shown yourself to be ignorant of the reasons for excluding them. Now you know the facts, and your best bet is to deal with them instead of just continuing to ignore them.

Please, MMMcount, do some basic research before making incriminating statements about matters of faith. It will make you far more credible.Your statement that the 7 deuterocanonical books were written originally in Greek or latin is disputed in Wikipedia:

Several appear to have been written originally in Hebrew, but the original text has long been lost. Archaeological finds in the last century, however, have provided a text of almost two-thirds of the book of Sirach, and fragments of other books have been found as well. The Septuagint was widely accepted and used by Greek-speaking Jews in the first century, even in the region of Roman Judea, and therefore naturally became the text most widely used by early Christians, who were predominantly Greek speaking

You can check it out yourself: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical.

Please note that the 7 Deuterocanonical books were included in the Canon from the first councils that defined the scriptural content. The canon of Scripture, Old and New Testament, was finally settled at the Council of Rome in 382, under the authority of Pope Damasus I. It was soon reaffirmed on numerous occasions. The same canon was affirmed at the Council of Hippo in 393 and at the Council of Carthage in 397. In 405 Pope Innocent I reaffirmed the canon in a letter to Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse. Another council at Carthage, this one in the year 419, reaffirmed the canon of its predecessors and asked Pope Boniface to “confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.” All of these canons were identical to the modern Catholic Bible, and all of them included the deuterocanonicals. cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm
Oh, and by the way, the Ethiopian Jews still use the Septuagint including the Deuterocanonical books. It as only the Palestinian Jews that dicarded the Deuterocanonical books (for largely the same reason that the Protestants did, they support Catholic theology.

The deuterocanonical books are also quoted extensively in the rest of the New testament:scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

So in fact, the Protestants did tear out sections of the Bible that had been there since the Bible was first compiled and it is you that is ignorant of the reasons to exlude them. Next time, support your statements with references. It will at least force you to do the due diligence in support of what you say… If you still disagree, show your supporting data.

 

[mmmcounts]

This is a nice little two-for-one passage. On the one hand, the Lord tells us that 1) Once-saved-always-saved is a blatant falsehood, and 2) We will be called to account until the last penny is paid.

Comments?

Ok, I ran out of time to complete my reply before. Here’s the first part.

1. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

• Jesus

1. We will be called to account, and every penny will be paid? Well, there will be a judgment where we will be called to account for our actions in life and judged based on that at the Judgment Seat of Christ. That’s not where salvation is decided, though. You only get to participate in this judgment if your name’s found in the Book of Life. If it’s not, you go to the Great White Throne Judgment. Anyway, we will be judged for our actions in life, but it won’t have anything to do with deciding our salvation. Salvation is a prerequisite for this particular judgment. Furthermore, if you seriously plan on paying for your own sins, I’d like to know how. What can wash away your sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus, my friend. It is a reliable statement that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. So whose blood will be paying for your sins while you’re in your imaginary purgatory place? Will you be bringing some animals with you to sacrifice? Will you ask Jesus to shed His blood for you again while you’re there? It doesn’t make sense. Your blood is no good. You can’t pay for your own sins.

 

[rinnie]

Ok, I ran out of time to complete my reply before. Here’s the first part.

1. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

• Jesus

1. We will be called to account, and every penny will be paid? Well, there will be a judgment where we will be called to account for our actions in life and judged based on that at the Judgment Seat of Christ. That’s not where salvation is decided, though. You only get to participate in this judgment if your name’s found in the Book of Life. If it’s not, you go to the Great White Throne Judgment. Anyway, we will be judged for our actions in life, but it won’t have anything to do with deciding our salvation. Salvation is a prerequisite for this particular judgment. Furthermore, if you seriously plan on paying for your own sins, I’d like to know how. What can wash away your sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus, my friend. It is a reliable statement that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. So whose blood will be paying for your sins while you’re in your imaginary purgatory place? Will you be bringing some animals with you to sacrifice? Will you ask Jesus to shed His blood for you again while you’re there? It doesn’t make sense. Your blood is no good. You can’t pay for your own sins.

It is by the blood of Christ that our sins have been forgiven. Purgatory is because of the Blood of Christ no instead of it. By the great sacrifice of Christ we have the benefit of purgatory.

It is because he has judged us one of his, and are not made quite perfect yet that we have purgatory. But we still have to be made perfect by like Christ to enter heaven. Nothing unclean shall enter heaven, yes by Christ mercy he forgave us and paid for our sin. Now we must be made clean and have the sins washed away for good that is Purgatory. That is our final step to eternal happiness.

If we were not judged one of Christ’s we would not get the benefit of purgatory. We would be one of the devil and would go right to him. If we go to hell we were never one of Gods and don’'t ever want to be. End of story!

 

[paul_c]

Ok, I ran out of time to complete my reply before. Here’s the first part.

1. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

• Jesus

You are fogetting the question of when he gives us eternal life, aren’t you? Is it at the time you are “born again” or is it at the time or your death? See the problem with the whole born again concept as understood by most Protestants, is that people who are born again can and still commit sin. Protestants in general, think that this is inconsequential, since they have already been saved as you suggest with your quote. The problem is, this asks God to declare as righteous, people who are unrepentent sinners. This is neither the truth nor just and is not in keeping with those qualities of God. Catholics see regeneration differently. We are regenerated during baptism, where the effecgts of original sin are washed away and we recieve sufficient grace from God to be saved. However, we recognize that this grace can be lost through our own sinful choices and actions. Forturnately, God is loving and merciful and allows us to regain those graces through confessions, repentence and atonement during the sacrament of reconciliation. if we haven’t sufficiently atoned for our sins during life, we complete the purification process in Purgatory

1. We will be called to account, and every penny will be paid? Well, there will be a judgment where we will be called to account for our actions in life and judged based on that at the Judgment Seat of Christ. That’s not where salvation is decided, though. You only get to participate in this judgment if your name’s found in the Book of Life. If it’s not, you go to the Great White Throne Judgment. Anyway, we will be judged for our actions in life, but it won’t have anything to do with deciding our salvation. Salvation is a prerequisite for this particular judgment.

What exactly is the judgment for, if nothing is being decided? Remember matthew 25-1-46, where Jesus, from his throne,separates the goats from the sheep according to their works, granting eternal life to sheep that loved their neighbors and send the goats, who failed to love to eternal damnation?

Furthermore, if you seriously plan on paying for your own sins, I’d like to know how. What can wash away your sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus, my friend. It is a reliable statement that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. So whose blood will be paying for your sins while you’re in your imaginary purgatory place? Will you be bringing some animals with you to sacrifice? Will you ask Jesus to shed His blood for you again while you’re there? It doesn’t make sense. Your blood is no good. You can’t pay for your own sins.

Jesus sacrificed himself to reconcile us to the Father, making salvation possible by compensating for original sin. His is the blood offering required. We are responsible for our own personal sins. These must be atoned for in the way that God prescribes. On earth, the Catholic priests tell us what we need to atone, speaking for Jesus who gave the right to forgive sins to St. Peter, who passed it on to the Catholic clergy. When we die, assuming we are not banished to Hell, our remaining purification will be defined as part of the final judgment. We will be happy to do it because we know that is what is required to make us acceptable to God and those that are saved will want it no other way…

 

[JAGCath28]

1. We will be called to account, and every penny will be paid? Well, there will be a judgment where we will be called to account for our actions in life and judged based on that at the Judgment Seat of Christ. That’s not where salvation is decided, though. You only get to participate in this judgment if your name’s found in the Book of Life. If it’s not, you go to the Great White Throne Judgment. Anyway, we will be judged for our actions in life, but it won’t have anything to do with deciding our salvation. Salvation is a prerequisite for this particular judgment. Furthermore, if you seriously plan on paying for your own sins, I’d like to know how. What can wash away your sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus, my friend. It is a reliable statement that without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. So whose blood will be paying for your sins while you’re in your imaginary purgatory place? Will you be bringing some animals with you to sacrifice? Will you ask Jesus to shed His blood for you again while you’re there? It doesn’t make sense. Your blood is no good. You can’t pay for your own sins.

You just said that everyone will be judged to account for our actions in this life. What do you believe happens at this judgment? What’s the point in accounting for your actions throughout life if you are going straight to Heaven (Especially, since all of our sins have been forgiven)? Why not just show up at the Gates, see that our name is on the list and go right in?

I’m not trying to convince you that a purgatory process exists because I understand that based on your responses you are not open to the idea. I think though (and I try to do this myself) that if before you disagree or agree with something, you (not specifically you but anyone) needs to make sure that they’ve researched the topic. This was the original poster’s intent…to understand why we believe in purgatory.

I think it is the word “purgatory” that gets the non-Catholics (I used to be one) so upset. Mostly because, I don’t believe they fully understand what the Catholic church actually teaches about “purgatory.” The Catholic Church (according to the Catechism sections 1030-1032) teaches that all of us Christians who have been saved through the blood of Jesus Christ will undergo a purification after death prior to Heaven. It makes no mention of time, place, etc. Whose to say that this “judgment” that you refer to isn’t purgatory? We believe it is a cleansing fire based on many scriptural references (and many others) already shown. But this may not be a literal cleansing fire. Unfortunately (or fortunately…however you want to look at it), none of us on this thread have experienced physical death and gone into the next realm so we can’t say for certain.

No one has said that you are paying for your sins by going through purgatory, and the Catholic Church does not say that this is the purpose of purgatory. It is merely purifying your soul for Heaven. Almost like decontamination from the filth of earth…if that is a good analogy. Again, I want to re-iterate that purgatory is not a place but a process. (So the imaginary comment was a little rude) uch: It could be an instant process, we don’t know. To try to speculate is kind of silly. We should be taking what we know based on scripture and yes, tradition…and using these examples to help us to live a Christ-like life.

God Bless!

Jessica

 

[rinnie]

You just said that everyone will be judged to account for our actions in this life. What do you believe happens at this judgment? What’s the point in accounting for your actions throughout life if you are going straight to Heaven (Especially, since all of our sins have been forgiven)? Why not just show up at the Gates, see that our name is on the list and go right in?

I’m not trying to convince you that a purgatory process exists because I understand that based on your responses you are not open to the idea. I think though (and I try to do this myself) that if before you disagree or agree with something, you (not specifically you but anyone) needs to make sure that they’ve researched the topic. This was the original poster’s intent…to understand why we believe in purgatory.

I think it is the word “purgatory” that gets the non-Catholics (I used to be one) so upset. Mostly because, I don’t believe they fully understand what the Catholic church actually teaches about “purgatory.” The Catholic Church (according to the Catechism sections 1030-1032) teaches that all of us Christians who have been saved through the blood of Jesus Christ will undergo a purification after death prior to Heaven. It makes no mention of time, place, etc. Whose to say that this “judgment” that you refer to isn’t purgatory? We believe it is a cleansing fire based on many scriptural references (and many others) already shown. But this may not be a literal cleansing fire. Unfortunately (or fortunately…however you want to look at it), none of us on this thread have experienced physical death and gone into the next realm so we can’t say for certain.

No one has said that you are paying for your sins by going through purgatory, and the Catholic Church does not say that this is the purpose of purgatory. It is merely purifying your soul for Heaven. Almost like decontamination from the filth of earth…if that is a good analogy. Again, I want to re-iterate that purgatory is not a place but a process. (So the imaginary comment was a little rude) uch: It could be an instant process, we don’t know. To try to speculate is kind of silly. We should be taking what we know based on scripture and yes, tradition…and using these examples to help us to live a Christ-like life.

God Bless!

Jessica

You have a very good post here. But I do have one question, what would really be the difference of saying purgatory is paying for you sins, or being cleaned of your sins. I mean all in all would it not be the same thing. I mean if you had sins to be cleaned from you still had to go through that process. Could that process not be looked at paying for them. And it could be an instant process for some for others a long one. That we do know. Because that is why we always pray for all souls in purgatory. Which if you are in purgatory would that not be some kind of penance. Because if you had no sins to be cleansed of, you would not be there. Correct?

 

[JAGCath28]

Thanks rinnie.

In answer to your question, I don’t know.

Here’s what the catechism says exactly:

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

I think we would be arguing semantics here. Based on how I interpret the above, it is a cleansing process and mentions nothing about paying for sins. This is where it gets fuzzy for me (being a new Catholic) because I’ve been taught my whole life that Christ’s death on the cross was to “pay” for my (our) sins. His sacrifice was the last sacrifice that would be needed to atone (in other words take place of the animal sacrifices that had been done up until that point). I’m not sure that I believe that after death we are “paying” for sins, but since we aren’t perfect even the most pious of us, at death we still have the stain of sin so we have to be cleansed (or transformed somehow) in order to enter Heaven. Whether we are paying for the sins we didn’t confess prior to death or all sins or any sins for that matter! , I can’t answer that question because I don’t know. I think that as long as we are living our life as best we can to walk with Christ based on how we are taught to through scripture and Christian tradition, then we will find out one day what truly awaits for us after our physical death.

On a side note regarding purgatory, I think Francis (or FCEGM) gives a very detailed and solid explaination on the origin and documentation on why the Catholic Church believes in purgatory beginning on page 6 of this discussion.

 

[JAGCath28]

And it could be an instant process for some for others a long one. That we do know.Because that is why we always pray for all souls in purgatory.

I don’t think any of us could assume to know the complete will of God as far as who goes to Heaven or who goes to Hell. I think that is why we pray for the souls of the dead. Even though, once they have left this world, the decision has been made as to where they are spending eternity, I think that we can’t help but want to see all of those we love (even the “bad” ones) so we pray that God will show mercy on them just like I’m sure that we hope our loved ones will do for us when we leave.

Which if you are in purgatory would that not be some kind of penance. Because if you had no sins to be cleansed of, you would not be there. Correct?

I’m of the belief that even if you “think” you confessed every sin that you’ve ever committed, you probably missed at least one. To err is human after all. So, I don’t think there is any way for any of us to be completely pure when we leave this earthly world. Some of us will definitely be more pure than others, but that is up to God to decide not us.

 

[cazayoux]

You have a very good post here. But I do have one question, what would really be the difference of saying purgatory is paying for you sins, or being cleaned of your sins. I mean all in all would it not be the same thing. I mean if you had sins to be cleaned from you still had to go through that process. Could that process not be looked at paying for them. And it could be an instant process for some for others a long one. That we do know. Because that is why we always pray for all souls in purgatory. Which if you are in purgatory would that not be some kind of penance. Because if you had no sins to be cleansed of, you would not be there. Correct?

I don’t see they are the same.
If a kid playing ball in the front of my house breaks my window, I’ll forgive him. no grudge at all. I still expect him to pay for the window.

michel

 

[steve_b]

This is what I am writing about. My paper is on whether Luther’s claim that he goes back Augustine is true or not. Purgatory is actually just a small part…as a lead up to indulgences. However - in Luther’s 95 theses…he does not disagree with purgatory, penance or indulgences…so in that sense, he cannot be a liar. In fact, he upholds them…he just disagreed with the abuses of them. It was not until later in this theology that he broke from the catholic church.

Your opinion on luther is interesting, and if you know of any books that support your view I would be really interested to know**…no websites though…as they don’t hold the same weight as something that has an editor, as any tom, dic and harry can post on the internet.**
Thanks

Here’s Luther’s writings, letters, sermons etc. As I understand, many of which translated originally by Concordia college, (a Lutheran institution).
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-luther.html

For example, Luther admitted adding “sola” to his bible translation. BTW, there were already many translations of the bible in German before Luther did his. But to read Luther you’d think he was the only one on the planet who could speak or translate in German. iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-translate.txt

Maybe some of this material will help you in writing your paper

 

[cazayoux]

There is responsibility, but it does not include the impossible and illogical burden of earning our salvation through good works.

but Catholics do not believe we are ‘earning our salvation through good works’

It’s good to do good works and true faith is always accompanied by good works, but these works do not earn salvation.

always? don’t think so.
what does the bible say about one that has faith, but no works?
does the bible say that one does have faith at all?
no … it says that faith is dead.
BIG difference.

It is by grace you have been saved through faith, not of yourselves, it is a gift. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Amen !!

michel

 

[rinnie]

I don’t think any of us could assume to know the complete will of God as far as who goes to Heaven or who goes to Hell. I think that is why we pray for the souls of the dead. Even though, once they have left this world, the decision has been made as to where they are spending eternity, I think that we can’t help but want to see all of those we love (even the “bad” ones) so we pray that God will show mercy on them just like I’m sure that we hope our loved ones will do for us when we leave.

I’m of the belief that even if you “think” you confessed every sin that you’ve ever committed, you probably missed at least one. To err is human after all. So, I don’t think there is any way for any of us to be completely pure when we leave this earthly world. Some of us will definitely be more pure than others, but that is up to God to decide not us.

I agree with you:thumbsup:

 

[rinnie]

I don’t see they are the same.
If a kid playing ball in the front of my house breaks my window, I’ll forgive him. no grudge at all. I still expect him to pay for the window.

michel

Having someone breaking a window is an accident not a sin. The person did not sin, they had a accident. And they paid for the window. No sin there.

 

[rinnie]

Jag the easiest way for me to explain it is this. Yes Jesus died for our sins, and it is because of that, we can be forgiven. BUt even if we are forgiven we must do penance for that sin. See what I mean? Purgatory is that final cleansing kinda like the final penance to completely wash away the sin we were forgiven for.

Now If Jesus did not believe us and did not think we were sorry, well thats another thing. Thats Mortal sin. When you refuse to accept your sin, and want no part of Jesus. Then no purgatory. Its Hell. Remember Jesus knows our heart. No fooling him. If he shows us where we were wrong, we were wrong. See what I mean. Jesus is never wrong. And we say yes Lord forgive me. then he will send us to the place to get our final cleansing. It is not a fun place to be, I do not believe. but just knowing where it leads makes it all okay.

Hope that helps.

 

[sodak]

2 Timothy 3:16.

This might be fun.
biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1343.htm

You still haven’t answered the first question. On what authority? You can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible is inspired. Otherwise, I could say that this post is inspired, then whenever challenged, refer back to the post - it says so!

 

[mmmcounts]

It is by the blood of Christ that our sins have been forgiven. Purgatory is because of the Blood of Christ no instead of it. By the great sacrifice of Christ we have the benefit of purgatory.

That doesn’t sound like something Jesus would say. Jesus might instead say something like this: 24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself." John 5.

Jesus says he who believes has crossed over from death to life. He doesn’t speak of the good works that proceed from faith in Him (as they must), but I guess that’s something He chose to speak of at another time. From what He says right there, though, I feel safe in saying this: I have believed. I have crossed over from death to life. It’s not saying I WILL cross over from death to life, provided that I do certain things and pay some sort of price in purgatory (even if the price is only in terms of opportunity cost…that is, missing out on heaven for some unknown period of time). It says the person who believes in His word and the one who sent him HAS crossed over from death to life. Now I don’t understand Catholic doctrine perfectly, but it seems like it says something different. At times, it even seems like I’m not even allowed to say “I am saved at this time and I know it.” Which is not too different from saying “I have believed, I have eternal life, I will not be condemned, and I have crossed over from death to life.” Oh, trust me, I will be faithful in doing those good works prepared in advance by God (Eph. 2:10). These are important, and those with true faith do bear fruit. But I can still claim the promises of Jesus concerning salvation. I mean, it’s a promise from Jesus. It’s a keeper. And you can be certain that it’s true.

It is because he has judged us one of his, and are not made quite perfect yet that we have purgatory. But we still have to be made perfect by like Christ to enter heaven. Nothing unclean shall enter heaven, yes by Christ mercy he forgave us and paid for our sin. Now we must be made clean and have the sins washed away for good that is Purgatory. That is our final step to eternal happiness.

Hebrews 10 is a healthy read. Tell me what you think of this passage. Bit of a summary: The first part talks about sacrifices of the old days and how they couldn’t take away sins (verse 4). Then it talks about Jesus being the perfect sacrifice. Here’s a few more details.

10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Ok, maybe this by itself isn’t enough to convince you. But wait, there’s more!)

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (A bit redundant, but ok. Wait for it…)
12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

By one sacrifice he has made perfect (the present perfect tense, not the future- it’s not something Jesus Will Do, but what He Has Done)…can we just look at that one more time? By one sacrifice he has MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who ARE BEING MADE HOLY. I am someone who is being made holy, aka sanctified. However, as such, I am identified as someone who Jesus has made perfect forever. This is one of those things that make you go Hmmmm…I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. There’s nothing I can do to make myself perfect. That’s exactly why I need Jesus. And what exactly does Jesus promise to do? He says if I believe, I have (present tense) eternal life, and I will not (future guarantee) be condemned. I have (already? seriously?) passed from death into life. Also, by His one sacrifice, He has made me perfect forever. It’s not my perfection, it’s His. And considering who it’s coming from- God in the flesh- of course this perfection is perfect, and of course forever really is forever. I am being made holy, and Jesus “has made perfect forever”…me, and anyone else like me. The Bible contains some very nice promises, doesn’t it?

If we were not judged one of Christ’s we would not get the benefit of purgatory. We would be one of the devil and would go right to him. If we go to hell we were never one of Gods and don’'t ever want to be.

I agree with that, except instead of purgatory I would replace it with the things Jesus promised to those who believe in him. Eternal life, not being judged, crossing over from death to life (which is really more of a right here right now kind of thing)…oh, and being made perfect forever. That too. Again, Hebrews 10. Good promises are found there.

 

[paul_c]

mmmcounts:

You are getting only half the truth. True, as you state from Hebrews 10, you can not be saved by works alone. Faith must preceed works. But it is also true that you can not be saved by Faith alone. James is very succinct in 2:24.

Faith without works is dead.

When Jesus talks to non-beleivers, like in John 5/6, he always emphasised Faith, because they need that before anything else. But when he talks to believers, his emphasis shifts to works, because works are required to demonstrate Faith. Three examples from Matthew.

7:21-23:Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. **Depart from me, you evildoers.’ **

19: 16-21: Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?" He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, Go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me

."

25: 31-46 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, **‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ ** Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Note, in all three of these scriptural passages from Matthew, believers (in all cases, they called him Lord or Teacher) are told they must do works (works of mercy, the will of the father, the commandments) to get to heaven. They are not even reminded that they need to have Faith, because they already had it. And in the cases where they failed to demonstrate their faith through works, they were condemned. So clearly, Faith alone was insufficient. They needed to do works, just as St. James pointed out.

The danger of personal interpretation, is you can think you have it right, but in fact, you might only get half the picture. Yes, you need to have faith and that is fully documented in scripture. But you ALSO need to demonstrate that faith with works, or it is dead.

And this last fact leads into the second fact, that you can never be guaranteed of salvation until you die, because until that point, you must demonstrate your faith through works. As we have seen from the above Gospel passages, if you don’t do good works (let alone do evil) you will be condemned, regardless of your faith. Because afterall, if you are not doing Good works, your faith is dead.

Futher, beyond doing good works, you must be cleansed of your sin and die in Grace. if this sanctification is not completed in life, God offers Purgatory as the final purification to make us worthy of heaven. If we truly love God, we want to be made clean in this way in order to be truly worthy…

 

[joe370]

Jesus said:

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Matthew 18

Two things can be gleaned from these verses:

1. Forgiveness is one of the keystones to the message of God, and our sure ticket Home, once we pass from this life to the next…

AND

1. If we don’t forgive our brothers and sisters in Christ --ALL people for that matter, than God will deliver us to the tormentors until ALL what is owed, is paid, that was due unto the King. (JESUS) In other words, a temporary prison. Clearly, this temporary prison is not of this world because Jesus said:

**Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king… **

Am I wrong???