Does purgatory really exist?

mmmcounts · Feb 9, 2009

joe370 said:
Two things can be gleaned from these verses:

Forgiveness is one of the keystones to the message of God, and our sure ticket Home, once we pass from this life to the next…

AND

If we don’t forgive our brothers and sisters in Christ --ALL people for that matter, than God will deliver us to the tormentors until ALL what is owed, is paid, that was due unto the King. (JESUS) In other words, a temporary prison. Clearly, this temporary prison is not of this world because Jesus said:

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king…

Am I wrong???

1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.

2: First off, notice that when the two servants received their rewards, they received different amounts. It will be like this at the Judgment Seat of Christ: Everyone being judged there has salvation. (The ones who don’t have salvation have a different judgment). Some people will receive more “talents,” “reward,” or “treasure in heaven” than others, and this will be based on the quality of their works. Details about this are found in 1 Corinthians 3, which parallels what happens with these servants.

Lastly, your comment about a temporary prison with reference to the condemned servant is quite incorrect. Do you fully understand how much that servant owed to the king? His stay in prison is not a temporary one. Given the amount he owed (10,000 talents- a debt of the greatest magnitude, but in US dollars it’s 7 billion 200 million dollars) and the maximum amount that he could pay back through prison labor each year, he is certainly facing more than 100 lifetimes (not years- lifetimes) in prison by the most conservative estimate. He’s never getting out.

My source for the value of a talent is here. biblestudy.org/beginner/bible-weights-and-measures.html

The exact value is quite unimportant- 10,000 talents was simply the greatest number one could put to a really large debt at this place and time in history. The idea here is that this is a debt of the greatest magnitude that can never be paid. So to answer your question, yes you are wrong. The unfaithful servant is never getting out of prison. Even if he’d somehow paid back the equivalent of 1 million dollars every year for the last 2,000 years, he would still be less than halfway to paying it back. The man would still be in prison right now. If we use a more realistic estimate of how much the man could actually pay back per year, his estimated exit from prison would be somewhere well beyond 20,000 years from now. Does this conform to your idea of a temporary prison? I submit that it does not. The unfaithful servant will surely die in prison, and since he knows better than you do what a 10,000 talent debt entails, he knows it going in.

joe370 · Feb 9, 2009

mmmcounts said:
1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.
2: First off, notice that when the two servants received their rewards, they received different amounts. It will be like this at the Judgment Seat of Christ: Everyone being judged there has salvation. (The ones who don’t have salvation have a different judgment). Some people will receive more “talents,” “reward,” or “treasure in heaven” than others, and this will be based on the quality of their works. Details about this are found in 1 Corinthians 3, which parallels what happens with these servants.
Lastly, your comment about a temporary prison with reference to the condemned servant is quite incorrect. Do you fully understand how much that servant owed to the king? His stay in prison is not a temporary one. Given the amount he owed (10,000 talents- a debt of the greatest magnitude, but in US dollars it’s 7 billion 200 million dollars) and the maximum amount that he could pay back through prison labor each year, he is certainly facing more than 100 lifetimes (not years- lifetimes) in prison by the most conservative estimate. He’s never getting out.

My source for the value of a talent is here. biblestudy.org/beginner/bible-weights-and-measures.html

The exact value is quite unimportant- 10,000 talents was simply the greatest number one could put to a really large debt at this place and time in history. The idea here is that this is a debt of the greatest magnitude that can never be paid. So to answer your question, yes you are wrong. The unfaithful servant is never getting out of prison. Even if he’d somehow paid back the equivalent of 1 million dollars every year for the last 2,000 years, he would still be less than halfway to paying it back. The man would still be in prison right now. If we use a more realistic estimate of how much the man could actually pay back per year, his estimated exit from prison would be somewhere well beyond 20,000 years from now. Does this conform to your idea of a temporary prison? I submit that it does not. The unfaithful servant will surely die in prison, and since he knows better than you do what a 10,000 talent debt entails, he knows it going in.

WOW!!! I can’t believe this is your rebuttal.

You took a parable vis-a-vis the Kingdom of Heaven (Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king…) --and injected actual temporal units of measurement to prove that the servant never gets out, even though, the parable clearly says, he will eventually get out, but not until…

*And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, until he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. *

BTW, even a million years is but a blink of the eye --in eternity…

joe370 · Feb 10, 2009

mmmcounts said:
1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.
2: First off, notice that when the two servants received their rewards, they received different amounts. It will be like this at the Judgment Seat of Christ: Everyone being judged there has salvation. (The ones who don’t have salvation have a different judgment). Some people will receive more “talents,” “reward,” or “treasure in heaven” than others, and this will be based on the quality of their works. Details about this are found in 1 Corinthians 3, which parallels what happens with these servants.
Lastly, your comment about a temporary prison with reference to the condemned servant is quite incorrect. Do you fully understand how much that servant owed to the king? His stay in prison is not a temporary one. Given the amount he owed (10,000 talents- a debt of the greatest magnitude, but in US dollars it’s 7 billion 200 million dollars) and the maximum amount that he could pay back through prison labor each year, he is certainly facing more than 100 lifetimes (not years- lifetimes) in prison by the most conservative estimate. He’s never getting out.

My source for the value of a talent is here. biblestudy.org/beginner/bible-weights-and-measures.html

The exact value is quite unimportant- 10,000 talents was simply the greatest number one could put to a really large debt at this place and time in history. The idea here is that this is a debt of the greatest magnitude that can never be paid. So to answer your question, yes you are wrong. The unfaithful servant is never getting out of prison. Even if he’d somehow paid back the equivalent of 1 million dollars every year for the last 2,000 years, he would still be less than halfway to paying it back. The man would still be in prison right now. If we use a more realistic estimate of how much the man could actually pay back per year, his estimated exit from prison would be somewhere well beyond 20,000 years from now. Does this conform to your idea of a temporary prison? I submit that it does not. The unfaithful servant will surely die in prison, and since he knows better than you do what a 10,000 talent debt entails, he knows it going in.

**mmmcounts…

You say that you are right, and I say that I am right, vis-a-vis the parable; obviously we can’t both be right, for there is only one truth vis-a-vis the parable. Who is the rightful arbiter; who can we trust to settle the dispute? Certainly not the bible, for the bible, as you can see, yields two opposing truths --yours and mine. You and I possess NO authority to settle the dispute; we, are merely giving our opinion.

**

paul_c · Feb 10, 2009

mmmcounts:

This is how you reach eternal life, according to the Holy Catholic Church.

Through Baptism, you are given sanctifying grace sufficient enough to be saved. This is through no merit on your own but is the gift provided to us through Jesus’s sacrifice As long as we stay in the state of Grace, we will be saved.
If we fall from the state of Grace by deliberatly going against God’s will for us (that is, to sin), we lose the reward of eternal life.
If we do fall from Grace, we can regain it through God’s inifinited mercy and love, through the sacrament of reconciliation, if we give a sincere contrite confession, repent, and do penance in reparation for our sins.
If we die in the state of Grace, God will reward us with Eternal life. Note, this is a reward, not a wage earned, because man has no claims on God, but God has promised this reward to those who do his will
If we die in the state of Grace, but do not have the required level of holiness, being still stained by sin, we will be purified in Purgatory until we are sufficiently holy to enter heaven.
So to summarize, God calls us to lives of holiness. If we are cleansed through baptism, have faith and do his will, he will reward us with eternal life with him in heaven. If we fail to do this, but instead turn away from him in sin, we will be condemned. If we see our error and confess, repent and do penance, we can return to Grace and again be saved…If we are saved through grace but are not sufficiently holy to enter heaven, we will go through the final purification in Purgatory before joining fully with God.

cazayoux · Feb 17, 2009

rinnie said:
Having someone breaking a window is an accident not a sin. The person did not sin, they had a accident. And they paid for the window. No sin there.

It was just an illustration, maybe it could have been a better one.

Easy enough to consider a situation where someone does sin, and it involves the destruction of property. Forgiving the person is separate from asking them to pay for the damaged property.

michel

rinnie · Feb 17, 2009

cazayoux said:
It was just an illustration, maybe it could have been a better one.

Easy enough to consider a situation where someone does sin, and it involves the destruction of property. Forgiving the person is separate from asking them to pay for the damaged property.

michel

Yes I agree forgiveness is different then asking someone to pay for damage. But the thing is sin is doing something on purpose. Having a accident or doing something wrong is different then doing something wrong on purpose.

We all have sins, and we all have to believe that God will have mercy on us. But very few people die without any sin on them. That is why we ask God for forgiveness and if we need to do penance for this sin have purgatory to do this penance.

Purgatory is the place we do our final payment say for our sins. It is suffering but a different kind of suffering. Because you know God has forgiven you and you will see him soon. Its kinda like overtime you hate to do it, but the rewards are great. That is Purgatory. You know when the suffering is over you get to see God. Now thats what I call a Payday.

mmmcounts · Mar 2, 2009

joe370 said:
You took a parable vis-a-vis the Kingdom of Heaven (Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king…) --and injected actual temporal units of measurement to prove that the servant never gets out

I didn’t inject the units of measurement. They are there in the Bible. It says the debt he owed was 10,000 talents. I don’t think you’re fully grasping what sort of debt this is. The only thing I can compare it to is your debt of sin. It’s something that you are entirely unable to pay on your own, and no effort on your own part can pay it. That’s why you need someone else to pay it for you.

even though, the parable clearly says, he will eventually get out, but not until…

It does not say he will get out. It says he will be handed over to his tormentors until he should pay all of the 10,000 talents. Since he will never pay the 10,000 talents, he will be tortured for the rest of his life. If his hypothetical debt were passed on to his descendants, the debt would at this time be maybe 20-30% paid. I don’t think you’re fully grasping the preposterous size of this debt.

BTW, even a million years is but a blink of the eye --in eternity…

I’d be very curious to see how a dead guy could continue paying this debt. Even if he could, what difference does it make to him?

Does purgatory really exist?

mmmcounts

Guest

1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.

joe370

Guest

1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.

joe370

Guest

1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.

paul_c

Guest

cazayoux

Guest

rinnie

Guest

mmmcounts

Guest

Does purgatory really exist?

mmmcounts

Guest

1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.​

joe370

Guest

1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.​

joe370

Guest

1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.​

paul_c

Guest

cazayoux

Guest

rinnie

Guest

mmmcounts

Guest

1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.

1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.

1: Yes, forgiveness is important. It doesn’t gain you eternal life, though. It may be one of the pieces of evidence that indicates that your faith is not “dead faith,” but it does not cause you to have eternal life.