Does quantum mechanics make God's existence more or less likely?

  • Thread starter Thread starter snarflemike
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As I re-read your original post, I think the example you give of not knowing when a particular atom will undergo radioactive decay, is a different thing from the “uncertainy principle” of quantum mechanics. A lot of things appear to us to be “stochastic”, meaning individually random but leading to predictable behavior at the population or ensemble level.
But QM says that we can never know, even in principle, when an atom will decay. No matter how much information we have about that atom, we can never know. Of course there are many other examples of QM “unknowableness”, such as, if we fire a single particle at a double slit, exactly where it will impact a detector behind the double slit.
I’m not sure what this has to do with the existence of God. Either God exists or doesn’t exist. Probabilities and likelihoods describe ensemble phenomena. Not that existence of God is like a coin flip. But if you flip a coin, it is either heads or tails. If you flip it many times, you get 50% heads, 50% tails, but each individual flip is one or the other. Even though you can’t predict in advance what the result will be, you know it will be one or the other. Quantum mechanics and uncertainy principle has nothing to do with that.
The classical position would be that we could know with absolute certainty the result of every coin flip if we had enough information about the coin, the exact force vector of the flipping impulse, ect.
 
What prompted my question was thinking about the “God of the Gaps” argument. QM says there are “gaps” that can never be filled, can never by spanned. What are the theological implications, if any, of such a fact?
 
What prompted my question was thinking about the “God of the Gaps” argument. QM says there are “gaps” that can never be filled, can never by spanned. What are the theological implications, if any, of such a fact?
In addition, QM postulates the universe to be porous, a place where God operates and sustains the universe.
 
Scientists who try to disprove God via quantum mechanics are simply overstepping their boundaries. Philosophers of science have repeatedly pointed out fundamental fallacies and flaws with arguments from quantum mechanics.

There is an excellent Christian debater who has doctorate in philosophy who has built his life’s work around answering these questions. Here are some resources:

reasonablefaith.org/media/origins-of-the-universe-has-stephen-hawking-eliminated-god

Father Robert Barron has also dealt with this question:

youtube.com/watch?v=S-yx5WN4efo

There is absolutely no reason to be concerned with arguments with quantum mechanics. They commonly formulated by scientists with no background in philosophy.
 
This is using a physical theory to describe something metaphysical. It can be helpful as an analogy, like thinking of a dance or a shamrock to help understand the trinity, but beware of reading too much into the analogy, which will break down at some point.
You really don’t understand this at all, Bobby Jim. You have the boot on the wrong foot. To us, the metaphysical position was never in doubt. What quantum physics does is corroborate it empirically and mathematically. The world is anything but clockwork and routinely measurable; it is utterly dynamic and fretted through with ever more numerous mysteries, unfathomable in very principle.

Moreover, quantum physics is more than a theory. It has proved to be the most successful paradigm ever, and continues to be vindicated experimentally, all the time. Indeed, it has reached the very bounds of physics at the subatomic level. It will not, unlike earlier paradigms, which were superseded in terms of profundity - although not rendered irrelevant at the mundane, human level - be superseded by a new physical paradigm, since we are at the interface between matter and Spirit.

“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
  • Max Planck, father of quantum physics.
uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-quantum-enigma-of-consciousness-and-the-identity-of-the-designer/
 
The proof of theism is actually quite plain to see. Light always hits the observer at its absolute speed, irrespective of the (constant) speed, at which he might be travelling in the same direction, or if he is just stationary.

What agency could ensure this action on the part of light, other than an omniscient, omnipotent, PERSONAL God.
 
You really don’t understand this at all, Bobby Jim. You have the boot on the wrong foot. To us, the metaphysical position was never in doubt. What quantum physics does is corroborate it empirically and mathematically. The world is anything but clockwork and routinely measurable; it is utterly dynamic and fretted through with ever more numerous mysteries, unfathomable in very principle.

Moreover, quantum physics is more than a theory. It has proved to be the most successful paradigm ever, and continues to be vindicated experimentally, all the time. Indeed, it has reached the very bounds of physics at the subatomic level. It will not, unlike earlier paradigms, which were superseded in terms of profundity - although not rendered irrelevant at the mundane, human level - be superseded by a new physical paradigm, since we are at the interface between matter and Spirit.

“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
  • Max Planck, father of quantum physics.
uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-quantum-enigma-of-consciousness-and-the-identity-of-the-designer/
Perhaps you mistake me for someone else? I’m Catholic; I believe in God, and I believe that we can know something about God through reason, but that fundamentally God has revealed Himself to us, as taught by the Catholic Church.

I just don’t know why we have to adopt the language of quantum mechanics to bolster our belief in God. It seems cheap and tawdry, and likely to lead to errors in understanding both God and quantum mechanics.

Back to the OP’s question - long ago, I read a book called “Irrational Man” by someone or other Barrett, about the development of existentialism, and how that affected art of the Modern period (early 20th century). Two of the critical turning points (or so the author proposed) were the uncertainty principle of quantum mechanics, along with Goedel’s Incompleteness theorem. At least in the popular imagination, these undermined a lot of the certainty people felt about the universe (of all things, even mathematics itself was now in question - this would be one popular spin of the time on Goedel’s theorem), leading to feelings of despair, isolation, and so forth underlying Modernism (and hence Modern art). So on that grounds as well I now find it curious that quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle are now being turned around in the popular imagination into things that support our belief in God. I think the point it makes is that it can make any point you want, and is thus not helpful to belief (or unbelief).
 
Moreover, quantum physics is more than a theory.
Lets see here…

There are hypothesis, and then are scientific theories like the theory of evolution. Are you suggesting that there is somethig higher than a scientific theory in science?🤷
 
The proof of theism is actually quite plain to see. Light always hits the observer at its absolute speed, irrespective of the (constant) speed, at which he might be travelling in the same direction, or if he is just stationary.

What agency could ensure this action on the part of light, other than an omniscient, omnipotent, PERSONAL God.
That sounds like a God of the gaps arguement.
 
There will always be at least one gap, unless you are God.
God of the gaps, is when you use the idea of God to explain a phenomenon that can in principle be explained by a physical cause but lacks empirical evidence.That’s different from arguing for example that a non-physical being created the principle laws of physical behaviour, since physical objects are a product of their behaviour in terms of what they do potentially and therefore cannot be the cause of their own principle contingent behaviour.

If you don’t know for a fact that a physical explanation is ontologically impossible, then you are doing a disservice to religious philosophy and science by arguing that God did it.
 
God of the gaps, is when you use the idea of God to explain a phenomenon that can in principle be explained by a physical cause but lacks empirical evidence.That’s different from arguing for example that a non-physical being created the principle laws of physical behaviour, since physical objects are a product of their behaviour in terms of what they do potentially and therefore cannot be the cause of their own principle contingent behaviour.

If you don’t know for a fact that a physical explanation is ontologically impossible, then you are doing a disservice to religious philosophy and science by arguing that God did it.
Doesn’t QM claim exactly that there can be no physical explanation for certain physical events? And yet the events do happen. One atom disintegrates after 2 minutes, another completely identical atom after 20 minutes. No physical difference between them can be detected, even in principle. What can we reasonably conclude from that, if anything?
 
God of the gaps, is when you use the idea of God to explain a phenomenon that can in principle be explained by a physical cause but lacks empirical evidence.That’s different from arguing for example that a non-physical being created the principle laws of physical behaviour, since physical objects are a product of their behaviour in terms of what they do potentially and therefore cannot be the cause of their own principle contingent behaviour.

If you don’t know for a fact that a physical explanation is ontologically impossible, then you are doing a disservice to religious philosophy and science by arguing that God did it.
Duh. 🙂

And a materialist will conclude that there is absolutely nothing that science cannot explain. The story telling is quite good actually. Without any empirical evidence. More than a few have been bamboozled.
 
Duh. 🙂

And a materialist will conclude that there is absolutely nothing that science cannot explain. The story telling is quite good actually. Without any empirical evidence. More than a few have been bamboozled.
There is a difference between Materialism and Science. But not many people understand this.

One is a philosophy, and the other is an investigative methodology.

Of course a materialist will say that science will explain everything; but that is not a conclusion of science, but rather it is a delusional wide spread belief held by people that really don’t understand the underlying epistemological principles of the scientific method; neither do most of them even realise that there is such a thing as meta-science.

The result is called “scientism”; a modern day fairytale for atheists that want be free from the accusing finger of religion. The sad thing is that it is also Christians that fuel this delusion by attempting to make God an object of scientific investigation, looking for gaps that god can fill. The result is the effective illusion that God is losing all explanatory power regarding the universe each time a scientist discovers a new physical explanation for an event once thought to be unsolvable.

The puppeteer artisan version of God is certainly dead; long live the God of Aquinas and Aristotle - the God of the philosophers.
 
There is a difference between Materialism and Science. But not many people understand this.

One is a philosophy, and the other is an investigative methodology.

Of course a materialist will say that science will explain everything; but that is not a conclusion of science, but rather it is a delusional wide spread belief held by people that really don’t understand the underlying epistemological principles of the scientific method; neither do most of them even realise that there is such a thing as meta-science.

The result is called “scientism”; a modern day fairytale for atheists that want be free from the accusing finger of religion. The sad thing is that it is also Christians that fuel this delusion by attempting to make God an object of scientific investigation, looking for gaps that god can fill. The result is the effective illusion that God is losing all explanatory power regarding the universe each time a scientist discovers a new physical explanation for an event once thought to be unsolvable.

The puppeteer artisan version of God is certainly dead; long live the God of Aquinas and Aristotle - the God of the philosophers.
Amen to that. While we can certainly believe that God can intervene in his creation should he desire to do so, there’s no reason for Christians to think God could not have created a universe that unfolds according to the laws that were in place from its very beginning, which is exactly what we see through the lens of the Big Bang model. Quantum physics seems to be uncovering the ingenious subtext of reality that might permit free will in such a superficially deterministic world. 👍
 
Doesn’t QM claim exactly that there can be no physical explanation for certain physical events?
Not that I’m aware of. Where are you getting this idea that QM claims such a thing?
And yet the events do happen.
Even if there was no explanation for an event that doesn’t mean the event can’t happen. So…of -course- the events do happen.
One atom disintegrates after 2 minutes, another completely identical atom after 20 minutes. No physical difference between them can be detected, even in principle. What can we reasonably conclude from that, if anything?
We can reasonably conclude that some atoms are unstable and it’s currently impossible to predict their exact moment of decay. However we can predict their % chance of decay to a high degree of accuracy.
 
God is a higher field of consciousness in the cosmos. God is the enlightenment energy. God is love, peace, happiness and a higher truth. Man need a cosmic consciousness. Man has to think nondualistic. Man has to feel himself one with all. Physics can help to understand God. One can realize a life in God only through the enlightenment. The path to enlightenment goes via the spiritual exercises.

Physics refers to the existence of a higher cosmic information field (Amit Goswami, God as higher consciousness). The string theory supports this point of view. According to some quantum physicists (Hans-Peter Dürr, Amit Goswami, Michael König), there is behind the material world a hyperspace that can be regarded as an afterlife or a heaven. Basis of this assumption is the proved (verified) phenomenon of quantum entanglement. If two entangled (by contact “mentally” connected) photons (light particles) can communicate over a large spatial distance much faster than light (immediately), there must be a higher dimension (a hyper-space) through which this is possible. Because the special theory of relativity from Einstein shows that signals spread out in the traditional dimensions of space can do this not faster than light speed. Professor Dürr: “Basically, there is no such thing as material. Primarily, there exists only connections to material foundation. We could therefore call it consciousness material. Energy appears only as coagulated secondarily, solidified spirit. (… ) Many discoveries of quantum physics are not only immaterial, but that is a work in completely different ways that have nothing to do with the standard three-dimensional spatial sense we have. It is a pure information field, a sort of quantum code. It has nothing to do with mass and energy. This information field spans the entire universe. The cosmos is whole information because this field has no limit. There is only one, but this one united entity is differentiated.”(P.M. Magazin 05/2007)

The German quantum physicist and mystic, Michael König (b. 1957) published in 2010 the book, “Das Urwort (The physics of God).” In it he made the Firstword-theory. Our universe is an idea of God. All begann with the wish of God that a cosmos with thinking beings should be there. He spoke a mantra (ELI) and the multiverse was started. Consciousness is the center of the universe from which everything is developing. Michael König has worked up the theories of Charon and Heim and extended. This enabled him to confirm through quantum physics, what was found by the enlightened ones and mystics of all time by the inner exploration of their consciousness. With his Urword-theory he connects the traditional knowledge of the mystical philosophy with quantum physics. God is a higher dimension of consciousness consisting of energy, love and information (ELI) in the center of our multiverse. From this center, the Eta-particle (basic light-quantum) flow and form the heaven, the afterworld and the material universe. Love is the essence of the universe. 👍

Amit Goswami:* I was fortunate enough to recognize, via quantum physics, that all the paradoxes of this field could be solved once we take into account consciousness as the basis for all existence. I recognized that consciousness is the primary form of reality. A higher reality exists over our material cosmos which consists of consciousness energy.
The universe is a conscious universe which is generated via consciousness. Consciousness is the only reality that exisists outside of the physical space and time. Consciousness isn’t an ephiphany of material, rather a result of the brain. Consciousness doesn’t come from material, rather, it can influence material in and of itself. The world of manifestation comes from a transcendent world of ideas.* 👍
 
The above is not related to Quantum Mechanics in any meaningful sense.
 
QM tells us that there are things that we cannot, even in principle, know. An example would be when a particular atom will undergo radioactive decay. And yet atoms do decay. So reality behaves in ways that we cannot even in principle explain or predict scientifically (other than in probabilistic terms). Does this situation affect the likelihood of God’s existence, in your view?

To phrase the question another way, would God’s existence be more or less likely if there were no such impossible to know, even in principle, events or behaviors?
Mike:

I think quantum physics makes the “how” of God’s existence (potentially) more available to us. Not alone, but in combination with other thought, such as the thought of Fr. de Chardin, David Bohm, and Scripture. Within the threads of these fora exist theories such as Yppop’s and Greylorn’s, that are attempts to explain how the physical and spiritual co-exist.

It’s funny, in a respectful way, that I am reading more about the “God of the gaps,” in these threads. If Yppop is correct - and thus far I like his theory best - God operates, i.e., creates, causes, sustains, etc. - at the implicate level, while we see and science operates at the explicate level. His theory is that “space” is essentially all there is. There are two sorts of “space” corresponding to the levels which we are able to view or not.

At the Big Bang, a huge, but finite, number of particles was stacked. In so doing, point particles would not extend into any sort of dimensionality. Whether there is one, or are many, when stacked, they produce no dimension (so, no displacement of God). At God’s Command, these stacked point particles started to move away from the main stack and each other. As they did, because of their charges, they formed what appears to be a lattice, with each point particle being equidistant from all of its neighbors. In between this (3-D) lattice of particles is Space - but a Space very different from a “soup” or a “foam.”

Today’s Physics defines “space” as merely “extension.” Yesterday’s physics defined “space” as the “internal extension of a body.” - (Com. on the Phys., Bk. IV, les. 7, n. 909; les. 10, nn. 970-971) and Newton seems to have defined the space of the world as “the sum of the extensions of all bodies in the world.” - (The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, transl. A. Motte, rev. F. Cajori (Berkeley, 1947), p. 6). Whatever, it seems that we have a contradiction. Not between the two definitions, but between how “space” was defined then, and how it is currently thought of.

Currently, “space” seems to be thought of as that extension that exists between two (or more) bodies - or even no secondary body at all… Very interesting. In other words, that "extension that exists between two or more bodies is sort of what? Air? Well, it can’t be “air!” Air is its own bodies. And, they are also separated. Also, as molecules, they are much larger than quantum particles. So, we’ll postulate a “soup” of quantum particles. And that’s fine. But, it does not explain what is in between the ingredients of the soup, so to speak. It’s not more, yet smaller particles. Bosons and fermions (quarks) are already considered to be the smallest particles. Right? (Please correct me if I’m wrong. I don’t keep up with this stuff moment by moment. :eek: )

So, what we have here is “gaps” - actually, an infinity of “gaps.” (And, we haven’t even left our Universe yet.) The closest I have been able to conceive of these “gap areas,” formed by the expansion of primordial particles, is that they consist of “nothingness.” “Infinite Nothingness.” Now, we know that “spiritual” is distinct from “physical.” We know that God is infinite and, as such, cannot be displaced by anything. So, the physical cannot displace the spiritual. But, do they co-exist side-by-side? Or, is the “Stuff of the Gaps” God? (BTW, we are not entertaining Pantheism or Panentheism.)

Enough, for now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top