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pedja
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In the same spot of what, not acknowledging that Catholics are Christians?!Sorry, I forgot yes you are. But, unfortunately you are still in the same spot.
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buffalo
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Liberalism is a Sin
…“The theater, literature, public and private morals are all saturated with obscenity and impurity. The result is inevitable; a corrupt generation necessarily begets a revolutionary generation. Liberalism is the program of naturalism. Free-thought begets free morals, or immorality. Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. Whoever thinks what he pleases will do what he pleases. Liberalism in the intellectual order is license in the moral order. Disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice-versa. Thus does Liberalism propagate immorality, and immorality Liberalism.” (Ch. 26).
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…“The theater, literature, public and private morals are all saturated with obscenity and impurity. The result is inevitable; a corrupt generation necessarily begets a revolutionary generation. Liberalism is the program of naturalism. Free-thought begets free morals, or immorality. Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. Whoever thinks what he pleases will do what he pleases. Liberalism in the intellectual order is license in the moral order. Disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice-versa. Thus does Liberalism propagate immorality, and immorality Liberalism.” (Ch. 26).
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Steadfast
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Are we now expanding the discussion to inculpate Protestantism for this too?
Why not just blame them for Original Sin and be done with it?
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Chancellare
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Are you changing subject of the thread to 'liberty"?
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Steadfast
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Why are you insisting that I prove “relativism” when it has never been my contention that “relativism” is within the specific purview of any ecclesial entity?
Ref.: your post #54, above.
The point is that the Reformers weren’t any more “relativistic” than the CC if we’re going to define that in terms of the fact that they bring differing biblical interpretations to the table.
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Chancellare
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CC teachings do not use differing biblical interpretations. Read CCC. You did not prove your point.
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Steadfast
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Are you contending that the Church has pronounced definitely and dogmatically on the issues I mentioned in post #51?
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Contarini
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That is not a refutation of what he said. Bear in mind that this is response to the claim that Protestants are relativists because we think that there are some matters on which theological agreement is not essential to unity. Steadfast has adequately made the point that this is true in Catholicism as well. It shouldn’t have needed to be made. Any Catholic who thinks for two seconds should see this as obvious.
The point is not that Catholicism is relativist, but that a distinction between points on which we can differ and points on which we can’t is not synonymous with relativism.
Edwin
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Contarini
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Yes, he did. He provided evidence which you have dismissed without even trying to refute it. Whom do you think you are fooling?
Edwin
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Chancellare
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To both of you and your ilk, yes but not me. I said read CCC.
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Contarini
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Are you claiming that the CCC gives an authoritative answer to the questions Steadfast raised? Please cite the precise paragraphs in the CCC that do this.
Edwin
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Chancellare
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For those who don’t know how CC doctrine attains unity, the CCC is the single biggest deposit of teachings for the Catholic faithfuls. The ‘liberty’ or relativistic interpretations that this thread is trying to tackle pales in comparison with the unity of doctrinal teachings of the deposit of faith in the CC. That’s whrere I’m coming from.
That’s the reason I said Steadfast did not connect with what CC is teaching. I’m just working mobile right now, I will post the appropriate CCC referece once I get home.
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Contarini
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But that is irrelevant. No one has said that Catholics can disagree on more things than they agree on (whatever that might mean). You’re repeatedly refusing to engage the argument.
The plain fact is that Catholics are allowed to disagree with each other on a number of important theological topics. They may not be important to you, but that’s begging the question. You assume that because the Church hasn’t settled them then they can’t be important, but Protestants would of course differ. They could just as well accuse you of relativism as you could accuse them (I’m talking about conservative Protestants, of course).
You cannot refute this, so you keep trying to change the subject.
Edwin
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Chancellare
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I was the one who detected your ilk’s attempt to to shift to ‘liberty’ as opposed to relativism, which was the original subject title of this thread. Now you claim certain theological disagreements are more important. It is you and your ilk who are changing the subject.
Thieves tend to assume people running after them are also thieves.
Some
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Contarini
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I have an ilk? Cool!
You are not following the argument very well. The OP claimed
Steadfast pointed out that this is not relativism, it’s liberty, and that the Catholic Church also allows for liberty on a number of points.
No changing of the subject here. We are responding to the OP’s argument on the terms originally stated. You keep bringing in this irrelevant point about the CCC providing unity. No one is denying this.
Edwin
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Hellisreal
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These threads end up going no where it seems. I get disheartened seeing how there seems to be a very stubborn streak in some people that when its all said and done, basically have issues with authority.
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GregoryPalamas
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GregoryPalamas
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It doesn’t matter what some Catholic here or another there says about the absolutes of the faith. Jacqu said it right when he pointed to the CCC. That is our yardstick as gleaned from the Traditions…all of them…of the Church.But Jaque,
Protestants don’t actually claim that.
What they claim is that what matters most is whether you believe Christ has died for your sins, not what the sign says outside the building you worship in.
In a lot of cases some identification with the creeds is expected as well.
Everything else identifies your tradition and most Protestants firmly believe that their tradition is at least closest to perfect and in many cases will tell you with a straight face that in heaven, everyone will be Lutheran (or Presbyterian, or Baptist, or what have you).
But I don’t think this is relativism the way you are using the term, though it may be to some degree since the very word “relativism” admits of relative degree.
Anyhow, I see no difference between this and Catholics who for the sake of charity would boil down what is necessary to be saved to Trinitarian baptism, faith and a firm intention to be holy.
CDL
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GregoryPalamas
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Don’t dispair. Historically speaking there is no doubt that the religion recreates itself every few minutes is the religion of relativism. That’s the bottom line. When one finds Protestants who are sick enough of that to convert to the Church Jesus established we rejoice. The search for the lost sheep continues because the Shepherd of all shepherds continues to search for those lost sheep.These threads end up going no where it seems. I get disheartened seeing how there seems to be a very stubborn streak in some people that when its all said and done, basically have issues with authority.
The Church as a sheepfold (John 10) is a powerful image. Let us cling to it.
CDL
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Hellisreal
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Thanks for the “good news”
that I pray for every day to be reality!
By the way, I just posted on the favorite images of Mary thread (something like that) and I wondered if you could take a peek and tell me if I am right about my comments there.
I like your posts.
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