Does "Saved by Faith Alone" really make sense

[BCH]

Some non-Catholics believe that faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation. I really cannot see how the Bible even remotely supports such an idea.

Catholics believe that God requires a (response from each man) to the grace He sends. Always and everywhere in the bible God blesses his people and waits for their reaction and cooperation.

Consider the initial gift of faith. God initiates this action but after faith is received, one must respond with 2 works (believe and repent). **Believe **- you must place your faith in Jesus by an act of your will. This is returning back the gift God has given you. If you do not perform this work and you do not place your faith back in God, you cut yourself off from future graces and from salvation. Repent - After the Holy Spirit convicts a believer of his or her sin, the believer must (by an act of their will) repent of their sins. If one refuses to perform this work and repent, one cannot be saved.

In both cases, these acts (believe and repent) are works. They are an action directed by our human will; however, they are works that can only be performed as responses to the grace of the Holy Spirit. Without this grace, these works are not possible. We do not take credit for these works but give all the Glory to God.

In a similar fashion (loving God and our neighbor) is a work that we can only accomplish by the grace of God. Catholics believe that we must respond to and cooperate with God’s grace by performing these good works. Again, we must admit that these good works are beyond our natural limits and give all Glory to God. If one refuses to continue to cooperate with the grace of God, one can lose their salvation.

 

[Reformed]

Some non-Catholics believe that faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation. I really cannot see how the Bible even remotely supports such an idea.

Catholics believe that God requires a (response from each man) to the grace He sends. Always and everywhere in the bible God blesses his people and waits for their reaction and cooperation.

Consider the initial gift of faith. God initiates this action but after faith is received, one must respond with 2 works (believe and repent). **Believe **- you must place your faith in Jesus by an act of your will. This is returning back the gift God has given you. If you do not perform this work and you do not place your faith back in God, you cut yourself off from future graces and from salvation. Repent - After the Holy Spirit convicts a believer of his or her sin, the believer must (by an act of their will) repent of their sins. If one refuses to perform this work and repent, one cannot be saved.

In both cases, these acts (believe and repent) are works. They are an action directed by our human will; however, they are works that can only be performed as responses to the grace of the Holy Spirit. Without this grace, these works are not possible. We do not take credit for these works but give all the Glory to God.

In a similar fashion (loving God and our neighbor) is a work that we can only accomplish by the grace of God. Catholics believe that we must respond to and cooperate with God’s grace by performing these good works. Again, we must admit that these good works are beyond our natural limits and give all Glory to God. If one refuses to continue to cooperate with the grace of God, one can lose their salvation.

Faith alone does not save anyone. I think faith is the instrument or conduit in how we receive the grace of God that was merited for us by Christ alone. Saving grace actually was merited for us by Christ alone. It is by the person and work of Christ alone that we are saved. This inculdes His perfect life and sacrificial subsitutional death on behalf of those who believe in a saving way.

 

[Chancellor]

In English we use “faith” as a noun. I wonder if in the original it might be used as a verb? To me, faith is something we do, or at least something that requires our ongoing active participation. I don’t see or experience faith as something that we can passively possess, as if we could it in a box and pull it out later when we need a ticket into heaven.

 

[Reformed]

In English we use “faith” as a noun. I wonder if in the original it might be used as a verb? To me, faith is something we do, or at least something that requires our ongoing active participation. I don’t see or experience faith as something that we can passively possess, as if we could it in a box and pull it out later when we need a ticket into heaven.

Atheist have faith that there is no God. What is your faith grounded in? Maybe Roman Catholics have faith that what the Roman Catholic Church tells them is true? Why is that different than the LDS Church telling her members what is true? LDS Christians have great faith in the Magestrium located in Salt Lake City.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Some non-Catholics believe that faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation. I really cannot see how the Bible even remotely supports such an idea.

It is more than the words “faith” and “alone” joined together, the phrase “faith alone” carries a definition behind it.
Check out this article on Ephesians 2:8-9:
catholicdefense.googlepages.com/eph2

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Maybe Roman Catholics have faith that what the Roman Catholic Church tells them is true?

Catholics have faith in the Second Person of the Trinity - Jesus Christ - first.

It is not about acceptance of a Church, or a dogma, or a moral teaching in the first instance. It is about Christ first… and then a response.

This is why I do not understand the Sola Fide/OSAS argument, and never have. What if I used the same argument in another context… my marriage (which is an image of the relationship between Christ and His Church).

Under the Sola Fide/OSAS POV, I would only have to tell my wife I love her. If I really meant it at the time, then my relationship was secure from that point forward, right?

If marriage is an image of our relationship with Christ, then each of us has the responsbility of the spouse, to maintain the relationship by performing the obligations that the relationship requires, and which can only be performed within the relationship itself.

It’s not a one-time moment in which we are saved. Salvation is the result of a life in relationship with a loving God. In that sense, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Being “in Christ” does not mean making a one-time profession of faith. Being “in Christ” requires a relationship - and by their very nature, relationships cannot survive absent the conduct of the two relating parties.

Just my two cents.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Reformed]

Catholics have faith in the Second Person of the Trinity - Jesus Christ - first.

It is not about acceptance of a Church, or a dogma, or a moral teaching in the first instance. It is about Christ first… and then a response.

This is why I do not understand the Sola Fide/OSAS argument, and never have. What if I used the same argument in another context… my marriage (which is an image of the relationship between Christ and His Church).

Under the Sola Fide/OSAS POV, I would only have to tell my wife I love her. If I really meant it at the time, then my relationship was secure from that point forward, right?

If marriage is an image of our relationship with Christ, then each of us has the responsbility of the spouse, to maintain the relationship by performing the obligations that the relationship requires, and which can only be performed within the relationship itself.

It’s not a one-time moment in which we are saved. Salvation is the result of a life in relationship with a loving God. In that sense, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Being “in Christ” does not mean making a one-time profession of faith. Being “in Christ” requires a relationship - and by their very nature, relationships cannot survive absent the conduct of the two relating parties.

Just my two cents.

Peace,
-Robert

Let’s follow the marriage analogy. Who gave us our wives and children? Who binds us togehter as one as husband and wife? Who sustains our marriage in the bigger picture? The love of God in Christ Jesus is much greater and more powerful than our ability to apostate. If left to our own will power and strenght, every single Christian would apostate, don’t you agree? A great part of loving God is believing or having faith in what He promises. It is the love of God in Christ Jesus that compells us to do the things that pleases Him. When we drift to idols of this world, we buy the lie that the world will give us greater satisfaction than God Himself. I’m not sure if you understand sola fide, at least the understanding for those who embrace it as bibilical truth. Don’t get confused with OSAS easy believism, altar calls, and sinners prayer brought about through Charles Finney. Actually Charles Finney rejected justification by faith alone.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Finney

 

[BPW75]

Perhaps Paul and James define the word “faith” differently. Could it be that Paul’s definition in the way he uses the word includes action on the part of the person whereas James makes a clear distinction between faith and works? If you look at Romans 4: 1-5 and compare that to James 2: 20-24, you will see that they use the exact same example - Abraham - to make seemingly contradictory points. I believe they are making the very same point, but defining the word “faith” differently.

Rom 4: 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

James 2: 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Some non-Catholics believe that faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation. I really cannot see how the Bible even remotely supports such an idea…

Yes, it does make sense. It can be taken in a sense that is perfectly compatible with Catholic dogma - just as it can be (& usually is) taken in a sense incompatible with CD.​

The disagreement is not about words, but about the meanings they can be used to denote. Even in Catholic theology, “faith” has a variety of meanings.

If faith, which is the beginning of salvation, includes all that follows it, then in a sense it is wholly right to speak of salvation by faith alone: because faith, understood thus, includes everything else in the Christian’s life. Going to Washington alone is the only way to visit what is in Washington alone - going elsewhere will not be any use. A tourist who refused to go to Edinburgh alone to see Edinburgh Castle, but absolutely insisted on going to Glasgow & Stirling to do so, or Moscow or Baghdad, would be acting in very silly way - to find an attraction found only in Edinburgh, one must go to Edinburgh alone - not the one in Alabama either, but the one in Scotland.

To find the good things in Christ, ignoring Him is silly. to find what is in Him & nowhere else (because all things are in Him, so nowhere else exists), we must go by the right way - which is faith. If we do not go to Him, we have only ourselves to blame when we do not receive what He alone can give. If a tourist refuses to go to a place to see what is there and nowhere else, it is no good blaming the map, the tourist board, the weather, or anything else but his own stubbornness & stupidity.

 

[Chancellor]

If faith, which is the beginning of salvation, includes all that follows it, then in a sense it is wholly right to speak of salvation by faith alone

But if grace is the beginning of salvation…

I think you are onto something important here. Sometimes it looks like the one word summations of theology that we use are forced to carry too much weight.

 

[adstrinity]

1 Sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”) : We don’t need Jesus in anyway, The Bible Alone will get us into Heaven.

2 Sola fide (“by faith alone”) : We don’t need the Bible, Our Faith (in nothing else, just our faith…that we’re going to Heaven, I guess) will get us into Heaven.

3 Sola gratia (“by grace alone”) : By the Grace (of God?) we will get into Heaven. Fortunately, we don’t have to read the Bible or Jesus, or Faith, nope, just God’s grace.

4 Solus Christus (“Christ alone”) : By Jesus alone, we will get into Heaven. We don’t need the Bible. Christ alone, all by His lonesome, all by Himself, heck, without even the other Two Persons of the Trinity, just Christ alone, will get us into Heaven. Don’t need the Bible, nor Faith in Jesus, nor the Grace of God. Just Jesus!

5 Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”) : Glory to God alone! … I don’t know who He is because I can’t rely on a Bible or my Faith or His Grace to tell me who He is and now I may have to give glory to the entire Trinity (which is a concept found in the Bible, defined by Tradition, but, it’s extra Soli Deo gloria, so, I wont mention it), which cancels out Christ alone.

 

[Reformed]

1 Sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”) : We don’t need Jesus in anyway, The Bible Alone will get us into Heaven.

2 Sola fide (“by faith alone”) : We don’t need the Bible, Our Faith (in nothing else, just our faith…that we’re going to Heaven, I guess) will get us into Heaven.

3 Sola gratia (“by grace alone”) : By the Grace (of God?) we will get into Heaven. Fortunately, we don’t have to read the Bible or Jesus, or Faith, nope, just God’s grace.

4 Solus Christus (“Christ alone”) : By Jesus alone, we will get into Heaven. We don’t need the Bible. Christ alone, all by His lonesome, all by Himself, heck, without even the other Two Persons of the Trinity, just Christ alone, will get us into Heaven. Don’t need the Bible, nor Faith in Jesus, nor the Grace of God. Just Jesus!

5 Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”) : Glory to God alone! … I don’t know who He is because I can’t rely on a Bible or my Faith or His Grace to tell me who He is and now I may have to give glory to the entire Trinity (which is a concept found in the Bible, defined by Tradition, but, it’s extra Soli Deo gloria, so, I wont mention it), which cancels out Christ alone.

Now that’s a step back from unity (John 17). At least you won’t burn me at the stake for my convictions. When we discuss and debate, by the grace of God we should try to represent the opposing position as accurately as possible. Did Christ die only for Roman Catholic Christians? Or did Christ die for all regenerate Christians?

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1 Peter 3:15

but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

The Light of the Gospel - 2 Cor 4

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Reformed]

If faith, which is the beginning of salvation, includes all that follows it, then in a sense it is wholly right to speak of salvation by faith alone

But if grace is the beginning of salvation…

I think you are onto something important here. Sometimes it looks like the one word summations of theology that we use are forced to carry too much weight.

We are saved by grace alone through the instrument (conduit) of faith alone based on the merit of Christ alone to the glory of God alone. The Bible reveals a perfect alien righteousness that is found outside of our own personal righteousness.

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Let’s follow the marriage analogy. Who gave us our wives and children? Who binds us togehter as one as husband and wife? Who sustains our marriage in the bigger picture? The love of God in Christ Jesus is much greater and more powerful than our ability to apostate.

That’s not sticking to the analogy. That’s attacking the analogy by way of a false conclusion.

reformed:

If left to our own will power and strenght, every single Christian would apostate, don’t you agree?

Yes. I agree. But that’s not the point I was trying to make. I’m not saying we love on our own. I’m saying that our response to the love of our spouse (with our own acts of love) is necessary to maintain a relationship.

reformed:

A great part of loving God is believing or having faith in what He promises. It is the love of God in Christ Jesus that compells us to do the things that pleases Him.

It does not compel us … that implies a loss of free will. Rather, our response to the love of the “bridegroom” is necessitated IF we want to maintain that relationship.

reformed:

When we drift to idols of this world, we buy the lie that the world will give us greater satisfaction than God Himself. I’m not sure if you understand sola fide, at least the understanding for those who embrace it as bibilical truth.

I think that those who ascribe to a notion of sola fide that sees works as necessary, but flowing from salvation, are closer to the truth than those who accept the OSAS notion. But, again, I think both understandings break down when we see Christ’s grace as formed in the context of covenant love (like marriage).

reformed:

Don’t get confused with OSAS easy believism, altar calls, and sinners prayer brought about through Charles Finney. Actually Charles Finney rejected justification by faith alone.

I understand the distinction (at least to some degree) betweeen those who believe OSAS and those who see salvation as something that can be lost. But, again, I think both doctrines suffer from a lack of understanding of the relationship that protestantism so strongly emphasizes. I think that is inconsistent … glaringly so. Perhaps that is why protestant scholars who study covenantal theology are so easily torn away from the doctrine by understanding that there is an exchange of persons that takes place, like in a marriage, and that salvation arising from such a covenant operates relationally rather than by affirmation.

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate better where you are coming from now.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[ralphinal]

In English we use “faith” as a noun. I wonder if in the original it might be used as a verb? To me, faith is something we do, or at least something that requires our ongoing active participation. I don’t see or experience faith as something that we can passively possess, as if we could it in a box and pull it out later when we need a ticket into heaven.

Read all of Hewbrews Chapter 11. Paul agrees.

As much as I am opposed to sola fide, there are lots of things in our faith as Christians that do not make sense. We should not start ruling them out because of it. Now, if you say makes no sense biblically, you got a point.

 

[SIA]

Some non-Catholics believe that faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation. I really cannot see how the Bible even remotely supports such an idea.

Catholics believe that God requires a (response from each man) to the grace He sends. Always and everywhere in the bible God blesses his people and waits for their reaction and cooperation.

Consider the initial gift of faith. God initiates this action but after faith is received, one must respond with 2 works (believe and repent). **Believe **- you must place your faith in Jesus by an act of your will. This is returning back the gift God has given you. If you do not perform this work and you do not place your faith back in God, you cut yourself off from future graces and from salvation. Repent - After the Holy Spirit convicts a believer of his or her sin, the believer must (by an act of their will) repent of their sins. If one refuses to perform this work and repent, one cannot be saved.

In both cases, these acts (believe and repent) are works. They are an action directed by our human will; however, they are works that can only be performed as responses to the grace of the Holy Spirit. Without this grace, these works are not possible. We do not take credit for these works but give all the Glory to God.

In a similar fashion (loving God and our neighbor) is a work that we can only accomplish by the grace of God. Catholics believe that we must respond to and cooperate with God’s grace by performing these good works. Again, we must admit that these good works are beyond our natural limits and give all Glory to God. If one refuses to continue to cooperate with the grace of God, one can lose their salvation.

Grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone. It is everything.

 

[ralphinal]

Grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone. It is everything.

And it is written just like that in the Gospel of?

 

[Reformed]

And it is written just like that in the Gospel of?

The gospel according to Calvin.

 

[ralphinal]

The gospel according to Calvin.

AMEN!!!

Seriously, some Protestants love asking us “where does it say that?”

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Where is that exact phrase, or something close to it. I would LOVE to see it in Jesus’s words.

 

[SIA]

AMEN!!!

Seriously, some Protestants love asking us “where does it say that?”

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Where is that exact phrase, or something close to it. I would LOVE to see it in Jesus’s words.

You jump all over it when a Protestant says something that cannot be telegraphed word for word in the Bible, but when it come to the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption, we are just supposed to take it on faith huh?