Does scripture actually teach transubstantiation?

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James, your quote from Augustine:
And when an expression of this sort occurs where it is customary to find it, there is no trouble in understanding it; when it occurs, however, where it is not customary, it costs labor to understand it, from some more, from some less, just as men have got more or less from God of the gifts of intellect, or as they have access to more or fewer external helps.
is a reminder that what we are doing here on this thread is an intrinsically difficult thing. We are making distinctions between the literal and spiritual (which latter is further divided into the allegorical, the moral, and the anagogical) senses of scripture.

So: Holy Spirit, please give us wisdom and insight.

Meanwhile, as a reminder to all of us on the thread, we take note of the Forum rule that we are not to presume omniscience as to the motivations of fellow posters. So: Holy Spirit, please give us your love for each other.
 
I’ve no philosophy background but am I understanding the discussion properly that someone is trying to prove transubstantiation using Plato methods of argument? I understand the Logos as Christians understood it and the Dimurge that Plato (two different things) suggested but have no idea what you’re talking about with regards to the Sign.
Sambo, we are discussing whether and how scripture tells us that transubstantiation is real. So we are using scripture to “unpack” the Catholic understanding of Eucharist. The Eucharist is taught in John 6, foreshadowed in many places in the Old Testament, and echoed and affirmed in many places in the New Testament: we’re finding those places and using them to interpret/explain/reason to this doctrine. That’s what we are doing on this thread.

In order to really grasp what a Catholic means by Transubstantiation, one actually MUST understand the classical definition of “Substance” and “Accident” (see thread What is the Substance that Changes in Transubstantiation for more info on this. One cannot use the popular or common definitions for these terms and successfully grasp what Catholics mean by the Eucharist. I’m saying this small because it’s off-topic.)

For this understanding you need Aristotle rather than Plato.

As to what Sign means, so far we have seen that SIGN IS NOT SYMBOL.

As John means it (the way the Greeks meant it), A Sign is the kind of thing which is/effects/personifies what it signifies.
On the other hand, A Symbol is the kind of thing which points to something else.

So, Jesus is the Sign Bread of Life. He IS this unique Bread.

Good?
 
Sambo, we are discussing whether and how scripture tells us that transubstantiation is real. So we are using scripture to “unpack” the Catholic understanding of Eucharist. The Eucharist is taught in John 6, foreshadowed in many places in the Old Testament, and echoed and affirmed in many places in the New Testament: we’re finding those places and using them to interpret/explain/reason to this doctrine. That’s what we are doing on this thread.

In order to really grasp what a Catholic means by Transubstantiation, one actually MUST understand the classical definition of “Substance” and “Accident” (see thread What is the Substance that Changes in Transubstantiation for more info on this. One cannot use the popular or common definitions for these terms and successfully grasp what Catholics mean by the Eucharist. I’m saying this small because it’s off-topic.)

For this understanding you need Aristotle rather than Plato.

As to what Sign means, so far we have seen that SIGN IS NOT SYMBOL.

As John means it (the way the Greeks meant it), A Sign is the kind of thing which is/effects/personifies what it signifies.
On the other hand, A Symbol is the kind of thing which points to something else.

So, Jesus is the Sign Bread of Life. He IS this unique Bread.

Good?
Ok I get it. I’m not as familiar with Aristotle and sign makes sence in the term used. Ok. It seems to me thought a lot of Jewish and Christian influence came from Plato. Philo being an example of this when exegesising scripture. I’m not sure what Aristotle meant about Logos but Plato meant a Demurge which was less than God giving rise to a lot of gnostic beliefs. I just wanted clarification on which Logos we were talking about John meant Jesus and put him on the same level as God. I have to agree with Catholics on this one about the Eucharist. There is more in the scriptures that support it than not and the early fathers believed it as well. And I’m a sceptic having initially left the church seeking a personal relationship with the Lord now actually studing these issues more intently! Imagine how I felt that I was wrong about the Eucharist.
 
Ok I get it. I’m not as familiar with Aristotle and sign makes sence in the term used. Ok. It seems to me thought a lot of Jewish and Christian influence came from Plato. Philo being an example of this when exegesising scripture. I’m not sure what Aristotle meant about Logos but Plato meant a Demurge which was less than God giving rise to a lot of gnostic beliefs. I just wanted clarification on which Logos we were talking about John meant Jesus and put him on the same level as God. I have to agree with Catholics on this one about the Eucharist. There is more in the scriptures that support it than not and the early fathers believed it as well. And I’m a sceptic having initially left the church seeking a personal relationship with the Lord now actually studing these issues more intently! Imagine how I felt that I was wrong about the Eucharist.
Well, there’s nothing stoping you from having the most intimate relation with Jesus in the Catholic Church. I hope soon we (and He) will be able to say “Welcome Home, we’ve been waiting for you. Come in to the reward prepared for you in your Fathers House.”

Your servant in Christ.
 
For those who require that a miracle must show visible physical effects, please take the time to examine this site:

www.therealpresence.org/eucharist/mir/a3.html - 34k

And kindly note that it is not my intention to start a debate on Eucharistic miracles. 😉
With respect, I feel that such a thing is out of place here. It’s rather simple as to why – even if all of those “miracles” were 100% real (a point which I do not concede), that says nothing as to what actually happens in all of the other cases where transubstantiation supposedly happens. With these “miracles”, you see a real, physical change, and if they’re authentic, I have no trouble accepting them. There’s tangible, real, evidence.
Certainly. I don’t remember using an absolute in this regard.
My apologies then.
PC, your first post uses the root word “symbol” a total of six times. You have used it in many other replies. It is not for me to define what you mean and no one can follow your meaning unless you are clear. I think everyone who has posted in this thread can handle the complexity of your beliefs since we seem to have understood you thus far. Please be specific. What exactly do you believe about Christ as the bread of life?
Basically, and please forgive me for I don’t have the time to properly explain all of this, it comes down to how we label things. Ideas and such concepts are not necessarily quantifiable, and yet are “real”. John was, as stated, a fisherman, not a philosopher. And yet the basic concepts of allegory and comparison were not above his grasp. Simply, John never says “sign” and quantifies it in the way that has been done in Roman Catholic apologetics. I reject this sort of classification.

The point of a gospel is to provide that which indicates, points to, demonstrates, evidences, or proves a claim or status. Jesus was God incarnate, a great teacher, and one who explained the will of God. Thus, the goal of any gospel author must have been to demonstrate these things while making Jesus’ claims and teachings appear as credible as possible. This is why John made note that Jesus was speaking spiritually, and not literally, in John 6. It’s the same in John 3, with Nicodemus. These proofs can consist of physical, real evidence (Jesus raising from the dead) or of symbolism (“I am the good shepherd”). They are all “signs”.

I wish I had more time, but hopefully you can take this concept in hand and look through John’s writings – perhaps you might be able to see (even if you don’t agree with) where I’m coming from.
As to what Sign means, so far we have seen that SIGN IS NOT SYMBOL.
A sign can be symbolic in nature. Jesus is indeed the “good shepherd”. Though we are not literally sheep, and he’s not literally one who watches over sheep.
 
PC:
So you’re saying that not only would the twelve have not thought that the bread was bread (and not Jesus actual body), but that they would have thought it perfectly acceptable that the bread actually, literally was his body? I think that’s a stretch to say that they would have denied their own senses, and assumed that Jesus was speaking literally, even when he’d said so many things previously in a figurative way.
PC, I recaptured the above quote because, IMHO, it models a mistake about the Twelve which is the same mistake you may be making about things in general on this thread.

You seem to think the Twelve could have had only one of two reactions, that is either
  1. the Twelve have no problem at all with taking absolutely literally–even literalistically–Jesus’ command to eat His flesh.
OR
  1. the Twelve naturally understand Him to be speaking without any literal meaning at all, purely symbolically.
But such a division leaves out the actual solution, which is:

**They accept in belief what they do not understand in reason. ** Peter states absolute belief in Jesus by the end of John6, speaking for the Twelve, after the crowd has murmered and the closer disciples have forever rejected both Jesus and His hard saying.

Though not understanding, the Twelve believe; they trust all He said without understanding how it can be so. They trust Our Lord to bring what is necessary to their understanding when and how He will; and they get the reward of their belief at the Last Supper, when He shows them that the manner of this consumption will be sacramental–unbloody–eating the Sign which is the reality.

To be teachable, one must incline.

**One can ask “how is such and such true?” **
and mean
"I accept what you say, though I do not understand it; so tell me, how is it so?"
without meaning
**“it can’t be true–prove it.” **

To be docile, one must have the attitude beforehand of trust in some reliable teacher–that’s the big hurdle. Trusting the teacher, one can safely incline one’s mind and will. Then an alien, even outrageous, teaching is met with, “show me what you mean,” not with “it can’t be so.” (This does not make reason irrational, rather, it prevents the will from impeding reason.)

So the Twelve (well, minus Judas) are rightly docile to the most trustworthy teacher, Jesus; they accept without understanding–yet.

I suppose some of the confusion, PC, is that your OP might be taken as a request to be taught. But you have said you reject Transubstantiation. And, a position rejected as false by the mind usually means also a will rejecting it as bad. Such a soul will not be receptive of the rejected view. So such a soul is not looking to be taught; it is surveying while not receiving the (wrong) reasons presented.

It’s an odd position–you both do and don’t want to be taught!

Well, while I, for one, certainly don’t expect you to accept things on Catholic authority, I do expect you to incline your mind and will a little more to what posters present; to display more understanding of the points made before rejecting them–simply because you have asked the question in a Catholic forum. Yes, true, I have the sense you disregard difficult but telling posts and you discard too quickly. Is this supposed to be like speed-dating?

Since you say your goal is to learn, I think I am serving you in highlighting this prerequisite to learning. I do like it that you are operating in the true arena of Catholic/Protestant disagreement, and are not interested in anti-Catholic slander; this makes it intrinsically more profitable for this Catholic at least to engage on this thread, as one can be working out things intrinsically noble and interesting.

I can’t help you on the time pressure–maybe participating in many threads (as I understood you to imply a while back) in a quality way is really not possible?

Respectfully submitted.
 
Well, there’s nothing stoping you from having the most intimate relation with Jesus in the Catholic Church. I hope soon we (and He) will be able to say “Welcome Home, we’ve been waiting for you. Come in to the reward prepared for you in your Fathers House.”

Your servant in Christ.
Well, gratias I think. I know there is nothing stopping me from having an intimate relationship with Jesus in the Catholic church. My only contention was that while I was growing up in the church I never understood I needed one. Like I’ve told others. This probably had more to do with my family, other parishaners I knew, and luke warm priests I encountered. Not with the magisterium. I’m studying the Catechism and I think a lot of Catholics miss out on knowing it.
 
PC, I recaptured the above quote because, IMHO, it models a mistake about the Twelve which is the same mistake you may be making about things in general on this thread.

You seem to think the Twelve could have had only one of two reactions, that is either
  1. the Twelve have no problem at all with taking absolutely literally–even literalistically–Jesus’ command to eat His flesh.
OR
  1. the Twelve naturally understand Him to be speaking without any literal meaning at all, purely symbolically.
But such a division leaves out the actual solution, which is:

**They accept in belief what they do not understand in reason. **Peter states absolute belief in Jesus by the end of John6, speaking for the Twelve, after the crowd has murmered and the closer disciples have forever rejected both Jesus and His hard saying.

Though not understanding, the Twelve believe; they trust all He said without understanding how it can be so. They trust Our Lord to bring what is necessary to their understanding when and how He will; and they get the reward of their belief at the Last Supper, when He shows them that the manner of this consumption will be sacramental–unbloody–eating the Sign which is the reality.

To be teachable, one must incline.

**One can ask “how is such and such true?” **
and mean
"I accept what you say, though I do not understand it; so tell me, how is it so?"
without meaning
**“it can’t be true–prove it.” **
Etc.

👍 :clapping: :clapping: :blessyou:
THAT was a great explaination!
 
Basically, and please forgive me for I don’t have the time to properly explain all of this, it comes down to how we label things. Ideas and such concepts are not necessarily quantifiable, and yet are “real”.
Please explain how an idea is “real”. And what does “real” mean if it is in quotes?
The point of a gospel is to provide that which indicates, points to, demonstrates, evidences, or proves a claim or status.
The point of the gospels is to spread the good news that Christ, the messiah and the son of God, came in the flesh for our salvation. If you are correct and the the claim of Jesus in Jn 6 is the bread of life then John’s point is to actually provide that bread through his words… is that what you are saying? If that is so then I think you have only part of the whole picture, for Jesus’ words are words of everlasting life as Peter attests near the end of this chapter. But it is not enough to just believe Jn 6:35 we must also work for the eternal food Jn 6:27 and actually eat the bread He gives and what is His bread?.. What does Jesus say is His bread?

…the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world ~ Jn 6:51
… John made note that Jesus was speaking spiritually
John made note that Jesus’ words are spirit and life. Spirit and life are nouns in English, how do you arrive at the adjective form? It changes the entire concept. The concept clearly expressed here is what Peter attests to; that Jesus words are everlasting life. Words = Life. Or Words = Spirit. Jesus words, spirit and life are expressed to be synonymous, just as bread is expressed to be synonymous with flesh.
A sign can be symbolic in nature. Jesus is indeed the “good shepherd”. Though we are not literally sheep, and he’s not literally one who watches over sheep.
A sign is a thing that points to something, usually something else. In the case of the bread it points to itself but also flesh as Jesus said by making them synonymous. The good shepherd is not a sign but a metaphor. The shepherd does not point to anything. It’s the same way with the other metaphors like “I am the door” or “I am the vine.” Jesus says, “the bread that I will give is my flesh.” He never said that the door or the vine or the shepherd are something else, so they are not signs. They don’t point anywhere they just describe who Jesus is. But the bread is different than these because Jesus said, “the bread that I will give is my flesh.”
 
ST. JOHN’S KNOWLEDGE AND IDENTITY

Some seem to be calling into question John’s knowledge and identity as a means to refute what he wrote. Unfortunately, that does not work, as we know much about this man from his scribe, his disciples and their disciples. It has been tried in the past and didn’t work then either.

WHO IS JOHN?

• Son of Zebedee and Salome and brother of James the Greater

• Originally a fisherman

• Together with Peter, a prominent force in the founding and guidance of the Church (Acts 3;1 sqq)

• Lived most of his adult life in Asia Minor, not Palestine

• Dies of natural causes near 100 CE, must have been a very young adolescent when he became an Apostle. Not uncommon among Jews, as boys become adults at their Bar Mitzvah at age 13 and assigned adult duties in the community of faith

• St. Iranaeus designates the Apostle and Evangelist as a resident of Asia Minor and expressly declares that he wrote the Gospel at Ephesus, a Greek community

HOW IS JOHN’S GOSPEL WRITTEN?

• Written in Greek with a distinctive character that suggests the author is highly fluent in Greek and knowledgeable of Hellenistic culture and though, such as

• Vocabulary, diction,

• Strong grammatical use of particles, pronouns, prepositions, vets, asyndta, reduplications, repetitions which is typical of Hellenistic speech of the first century rather than Hebrew or Aramaic

• Bishop Papias of Hierapolis in Phrygia, an immediate disciple of John details in his writings how he was employed as a scribe by John.

• John was obviously well connected with Hellenistic culture and employs a Greek scribe to complete his work

• In such a relationship there is an understanding of the minds between the author and the scribe, as was typical of Greek thinkers of the time. (i.e. Aristotle never wrote, but is the author of his works)

• It was an accepted Hellenistic practice to employ scribes to write and for the author to proofread and authorize publication

• What he dictates reflects a knowledge of Greek culture, language and thought

• The choice to translate the narrative from Hebrew and Aramaic to Greek suggests a target audience being Greeks.

• It is reasonable to accept that his use of such terms as Logos and sign are used with the Greek nuance instead of the Hebrew understanding, as the semantics of the two societies were different, it would have made little sense to write for Greeks, in Greek using semantics, linguistic pragmatics and nuance that was foreign to them.

• In addition, there was no need to write another Jewish version of the Gospel. There were already three in existence and the letters

• John’s Gospel is written at the earliest 96 CE or shortly after.

• The second century Church, after 100 CE, confers upon him the title, The Theologian of the Evangelists, a title given to him by men of great knowledge of theology and philosophy and not given to any other NT writer, not even Paul, despite his eloquence.

• His tie-backs to prophecies and teachings of Jesus suggest that he is Palestinian Jew, but with a great deal of knowledge of geographical and social conditions of Palestine even in his slightest incidental references. Not other Evangelist has this quality in his writing.

• Focuses on the person of the Redeemer, rather than his works. Events seem to be only a frame for the words, conversation and teaching of Jesus

• From his opening sentences John turns his attention to the inmost recesses of eternity. This requires insight into metaphysics, eschatology, scripture, and apologetics.
Code:
Did he attend school or did he learn from his surroundings in Asia Minor?  Who knows?  Did he understand and use Hellenistic thought and language to his advantage?  Obviously.
Was he a Mystic? Affirmative

Was he an intelligent man? Affirmative

Was he more intelligent than most of us here? Can anyone here write like him?
 
PS.

If John had wanted to refer to the Jewish use of the term Word, he would have translated it to lexi in Greek. Lexi=word, as in lexicon.

Symbol would have been symbolo, instead of endeixis (sign or proof).

The Greek Church called Jesus the IXIOS or IXEUS, the suffix of endeixis.
 
PS.

If John had wanted to refer to the Jewish use of the term Word, he would have translated it to lexi in Greek. Lexi=word, as in lexicon.

Symbol would have been symbolo, instead of endeixis (sign or proof).

The Greek Church called Jesus the IXIOS or IXEUS, the suffix of endeixis.
Interesting statements-got any references to back them up? 🙂

The first section of John’s Gospel definitely resounds with Hebrew imagery, from the allusion to Gen 1:1 to asserting that Christ “tabernacled” (dwelt) among us in verse 14 by using εσκηνωσεν as opposed to the more common verb κατοικεω which John uses in other parts of his writing.

As for the suggestion that “lexi” would have been a more appropriate term for the Hebrew concept of “Word” neither this online Septuagint concordance (sorry, all I could find online-type in logoc to get responses) nor my trusty Hatch and Redpath here at home support that contention.

Logos is the word most commonly used when God’s word is referred to, especially when it is personified. (my apologies on citing Genesis in my previous post, where *rhema *was actually used-my bad)

I have no argument with the concept that John used Papias as a scribe-it was a common enough practice in that day, and is in keeping with what we are told of John’s background as a fisherman. Looking at what C. K. Barrett wrote in his commentary on John (chapters 1 and 2 especially) should clearly show that there are a greater abundance of biblical, patristic and historical references that demonstrate a Hebrew outlook in the Gospel than one of Greek philosophy.

Likewise, it shows the uniqueness of much of the grammatical construction in the Gospel. Scholars have debated whether this indicates advanced fluency or simply an attempt to fit Hebrew concepts and new theological ideas into the linguistic conventions of the day.

Unless you can provide references to the contrary, that support the assertions in your post, the sign/symbol distinction *à la Grecque *is still up for debate.

Shalom 🙂
 
Something – anything – explicitly stating that the appearance of bread remains while the substance changes. That would certainly convince me. Something less than that – maybe, but I’m not sure exactly what that something might be.
OK, this thread is done. You won’t listen to any extra-biblical explanation of substance vs accidents, so the answer is simple. No, scripture does not teach transubstatiation. Everyone can go home now. :rolleyes:
I must say I really am offended at this. This is precisely the kind of uncharitable behavior I was speaking of. Please do not accuse me of motives that I do not have, especially when I’ve done everything I can to convince you guys otherwise…everything except agree with everything you’re saying. Is that what it would take for you to believe I have been honest about searching for truth?
You’re right. I’m sorry. I take it back. You are not trying to tell Jesus he’s wrong. You are honestly seeking the truth–but you are looking in the wrong place and until you broaden your search pattern you won’t find it.🤷

God bless you, PCM, and Mary keep you. I’m done.

J
 
OK, this thread is done. You won’t listen to any extra-biblical explanation of substance vs accidents, so the answer is simple. No, scripture does not teach transubstatiation. Everyone can go home now. :rolleyes:
Well, given that we Catholics know that transubstantiation is true can we take your conclusion here as proof that Sola Scriptura is deficient? I’d hate to see so much good thought tossed away without producing something more liberating and substantial as just fruits for the labor. 😉

Just a parting thought before we shut down the thread - would the incarnation of Jesus, where the word became flesh not be a concrete and unequivocal scriptural example of transubstantiation? Or are we going to be told that scriptural sources are biased and we must seek extra-scriptural sources to prove that Jesus really lived, died, was resurrected and is divine? 😉

James
 
ST. JOHN’S KNOWLEDGE AND IDENTITY

Some seem to be calling into question John’s knowledge and identity as a means to refute what he wrote. Unfortunately, that does not work, as we know much about this man from his scribe, his disciples and their disciples. It has been tried in the past and didn’t work then either.

• Dies of natural causes near 100 CE,
• John’s Gospel is written at the earliest 96 CE or shortly after.

• The second century Church, after 100 CE,

An altogether edifying post and I thank you. I have one request. Do not give in to the pressure of the world and use “CE” instead of “AD”. May seem a small thing but I think not. There is no “common era” other than that caused by the conversion of so much of the world to the faith. This is a bit of nonsense dreamed up by academics who are at best hostile to the faith and embrace a numbing political correctness. The US Bishops have put out guidelines requiring publishers of Catholic Religious texts to use “AD” not “CE” let’s do the same. Written this 31st day of January, in the Year of Our Lord 2008. (January 31, 2008 AD)

Excellent post otherwise.
 
You seem to think the Twelve could have had only one of two reactions, that is either
  1. the Twelve have no problem at all with taking absolutely literally–even literalistically–Jesus’ command to eat His flesh.
OR
  1. the Twelve naturally understand Him to be speaking without any literal meaning at all, purely symbolically.
But such a division leaves out the actual solution, which is:

**They accept in belief what they do not understand in reason. ** Peter states absolute belief in Jesus by the end of John6, speaking for the Twelve, after the crowd has murmered and the closer disciples have forever rejected both Jesus and His hard saying.
I actually have considered that – the problem is, it’s almost unthinkable, if they didn’t truly understand what he was saying, for a gospel to be recorded that doesn’t further explain it. A gospel is a written work designed to demonstrate the truth of something or someone to a recipient. How could the gospel authors expect to have done that without explaining such a crucial and confusing concept as transubstantiation…at least to the point of saying – “yes, it’s really his flesh – accept it on faith”.
To be docile, one must have the attitude beforehand of trust in some reliable teacher–that’s the big hurdle. Trusting the teacher, one can safely incline one’s mind and will. Then an alien, even outrageous, teaching is met with, “show me what you mean,” not with “it can’t be so.” (This does not make reason irrational, rather, it prevents the will from impeding reason.)
Agreed – the will can impede reason. But in order to trust a teacher, you must establish (through reason) the trustworthiness of that teacher. Christ is no-doubt trustworthy, but is the RCC?
I suppose some of the confusion, PC, is that your OP might be taken as a request to be taught. But you have said you reject Transubstantiation. And, a position rejected as false by the mind usually means also a will rejecting it as bad. Such a soul will not be receptive of the rejected view. So such a soul is not looking to be taught; it is surveying while not receiving the (wrong) reasons presented.
I should clarify that I have nothing against, and no reason for rejecting transubstantiation other than that I don’t believe Christ chose to do things that way. I don’t believe the evidence supports it.

Actually, I kind of wish there were explicit claims of this stuff, and the papacy, and so on – it makes religious belief a heck of a lot easier to do.
Well, while I, for one, certainly don’t expect you to accept things on Catholic authority, I do expect you to incline your mind and will a little more to what posters present; to display more understanding of the points made before rejecting them–simply because you have asked the question in a Catholic forum. Yes, true, I have the sense you disregard difficult but telling posts and you discard too quickly. Is this supposed to be like speed-dating?
Haha, not at all. The problem is that you’re assuming I don’t understand the point of “signs” versus “symbols” and such. I assure you, I do understand the concepts.

But if the logic behind it seems flawed in some identifiable way, what am I to do? I can’t simply accept it.
Since you say your goal is to learn, I think I am serving you in highlighting this prerequisite to learning.
Well, I appreciate the calmness with which you’re posting this. I don’t know that I think your observations are necessarily true, but I understand that you think they are important, so I’ll be praying about these things. 🙂
I do like it that you are operating in the true arena of Catholic/Protestant disagreement, and are not interested in anti-Catholic slander; this makes it intrinsically more profitable for this Catholic at least to engage on this thread, as one can be working out things intrinsically noble and interesting.
Exactly! Slander, whether anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant really stems from misunderstanding of the other. I can just as easily not be here, and snipe at Roman Catholics I know in person. But what good would that accomplish – it certainly wouldn’t help me to grow spiritually.
I can’t help you on the time pressure–maybe participating in many threads (as I understood you to imply a while back) in a quality way is really not possible?
Perhaps – I’m still working on optimizing my available time so that I can come back to discussions like this more fully.
If John had wanted to refer to the Jewish use of the term Word, he would have translated it to lexi in Greek. Lexi=word, as in lexicon.
I didn’t say that he wanted the term for “word”. I simply said that it can have a symbolic meaning. And since, as you pointed out, logos is “the source of life”, then the truth being conveyed is that Jesus is the source of life. “Word” then becomes a mistranslation.
 
You won’t listen to any extra-biblical explanation of substance vs accidents
that would be doubly off-topic–
  1. this thread is about scripture basis, and scripture basis alone;
  2. PC went through the explanation of substance vs accidents on the thread What is the Substance That Changes in Transubstantiation, which topic does not belong on this thread.
Let’s stick to the OP, which provides plenty of scope for plenty of work.
 
JR, I thought you brought up the below to support that John is writing about Jewish/Christian things out of a Greek mindset; not that he is avoiding Jewishness. Right?
"JR:
If John had wanted to refer to the Jewish use of the term Word, he would have translated it to lexi in Greek. Lexi=word, as in lexicon.

Symbol would have been symbolo, instead of endeixis (sign or proof).

The Greek Church called Jesus the IXIOS or IXEUS, the suffix of endeixis…
If so, then this point:
As for the suggestion that “lexi” would have been a more appropriate term for the Hebrew concept of “Word”
seems pointless. :confused:

Non Serviam said:
Logos is the word most commonly used when God’s word is referred to, especially when it is personified.

point being?
NS:
there are a greater abundance of biblical, patristic and historical references that demonstrate a Hebrew outlook in the Gospel than one of Greek philosophy.
JR, what do you think of that material?
NS:
Unless you can provide references to the contrary, that support the assertions in your post, the sign/symbol distinction *à la Grecque *is still up for debate.
deferring to JR:
Catholicism distinguishes between
Sign as John uses it in his Gospel, as that which is/effects/personifies what it signifies
and
Symbol–that which points to something (without having any further virtue).
Does this Catholic distinction rely essentially upon John using Greek thought behind Logos? (And behind Sign?) (And therefore behind Bread of Life?)

Or is it a theory, favored because it’s likely AND it explains and fits with Our Lord’s literalness in John6?

Or?
 
(Jesus) explains the concept by comparing the first food that even though it was from the Father did not give life, yet the second food that is also from the Father will give life at the resurrection.
…that is the concept that Jesus is conveying by making the comparison between the food that man eats and perishes (the first food) and food that man eats and will be raised because of (the second food).
In the same way that the Israelites could sense the properties of Mana as being bread so too can we sense the accidents of the Eucharist as belonging to bread.
… We are capable of perceiving the accidents of the Eucharist as belonging to bread. …
it is enough that only the accidents remain… only the thngs that can be sensed remain… in order to fulfill this part of the greater than requirement. But this alone would be less than bread since the substance of bread is not there. To see the greater than part we must continue.

no two things can occupy the same exact space at the exact same time. …He said, “I am the bread of life.” Therefore the thing which seems bread to us is Jesus. If …it must be flesh in order to fulfill the greater than concept, then the substance must be flesh, His Flesh. And where His flesh is, since it is living, so too is the rest of His presence (Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity). That’s what makes it greater, the fact that it is Jesus in his fullness.

I say again, if the bread part of the second food is fulfilled in the appearances which everyone can see,
and the flesh part must be fulfilled,
then the flesh part must be fulfilled in the non-visible, non-sense-able (not able to be sensed) part of the Eucharist

When I said “The only place the flesh can be, since it cannot be sensed because the bread is sensed,” I used “be” as “exist”. Does that make sense? (emphasis added)
So: "The only place the flesh can be
–since it must be there as Jesus said it is
and
–since it cannot be sensed because what is sensed is bread, not flesh
therefore
–the flesh must be where what is sensed is not (what is sensed is present to our senses; what is not sensed is what underlies the sensed) that is, it must be the substance.

I may have gotten off the track, Catholic Author, because I was not attending to your interest in consubstantiation. But, now do I have your point?
 
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