Does scripture actually teach transubstantiation?

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So: "The only place the flesh can be
–since it must be there as Jesus said it is
and
–since it cannot be sensed because what is sensed is bread, not flesh
therefore
–the flesh must be where what is sensed is not (what is sensed is present to our senses; what is not sensed is what underlies the sensed) that is, it must be the substance.

I may have gotten off the track, Catholic Author, because I was not attending to your interest in consubstantiation. But, now do I have your point?
Yes, I think you have expressed it. Since it has been suggested that this thread is closing down and I think there is more to discuss on this analogy, I have started another thread:

Transubstantiation Analogy form OT to NT

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3264185#post3264185

Please Join me there. Thank you and may the Peace of Christ always be with you.

Tim
 
"Toaslan:
the actual solution, which is:
They accept in belief what they do not understand in reason.
I actually have considered that – the problem is, it’s almost unthinkable, if they didn’t truly understand what he was saying, for a gospel to be recorded that doesn’t further explain it.
Well, Catholics don’t think it.

Catholicism sees many New Testament texts which affirm, repeat, or highlight this or that aspect of the Catholic view of John6. We also see places in the Old Testament which foreshadow, set us up for, and explain in advance by echo, by pattern and/or by opposition, what is delivered in John 6.
PC:
A gospel is a written work designed to demonstrate the truth of something… How could the gospel authors expect to have done that without explaining such a crucial and confusing concept as transubstantiation…at least to the point of saying – “yes, it’s really his flesh – accept it on faith”.
How could they not explain fully? Explain more? Explain a little more?

Well, they did, as we have seen already so far on this thread.
  1. It was noted, for example, how St. Paul underlines the literalness of the Body and Blood when he says to approach unworthily is to be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord–he does not say that such are guilty of profaning a symbol of the Body and Blood
Carelessness in referencing the most sacred objects ever existent upon the earth? Paul is careless, he exaggerates? Maybe he’s manipulating, imposing his view by overstating? I would not say such of St. Paul–and you have to in order to minimize his actual wording here.

Further, how to explain that he attibutes cause and effect when he says unworthy participation has resulted in bodily illness. No, a more straightforward reading is that he is saying they are sick in body because they approached unworthily the literal Body.

Many many other NT affirmations and references to Transubstantiation have been cited in this thread, supporting or in harmony with the Catholic view.

Many, many OT texts have been spread out here–all harmonizing with the literal Catholic reading of John6–in fact, once they are highlighted, it would seem impossible to ever again disassociate them from the Eucharist–they seem:) designed to prepare us for the Bread of Life.

All these texts from Old and New Testament teach us that the Eucharist is like Manna but more real; it is as real as the Ascension and the Resurrection; it is as literal as the pre-existent Logos who is literally GodMadeMan; it is the saving ransom offered by Melchisidech; on and on, look back through the thread and you will see all the places which for Catholics jump out as Eucharistic.
  1. John’s own human understanding of what he wrote under inspiration–why should we expect even his profound understanding to be as articulated or explicit as our own? We’ve had the ages to unpack this teaching. We expect that he wrote what he believed, and what he believed he did not fully understand. He understood more at the Last Supper than he had at the Discourse; no doubt more at the foot of the Cross; no doubt more on the beach eating with the Risen Lord; no doubt more as priest saying the words of His Lord at the altar; no doubt more each time he received Him that way; no doubt fully now as he stands before the Perfect Offering face-to-face. (ditto for the other apostles)
How could the gospel authors expect to have done that without explaining such a crucial and confusing concept as transubstantiation
But you see, PC, they and their forerunners, the OT authors, did explain it–while not understanding what they were explaining.

No one pretends to fathom It’s depths–Catholics are aware that while we truly understand Transubstantiation, we also barely understand; but if we believe to the best of our mind and will, we are allowed, even urged by Him to union with Him in the intimacy of the Real Presence. And we will have the reward of obedient faith when the glorified Church stands forth in perfect union with the Bread of Life, fully and eternally Alive.
 
Interesting statements-got any references to back them up? 🙂

As for the suggestion that “lexi” would have been a more appropriate term for the Hebrew concept of “Word” neither this online Septuagint concordance

Looking at what C. K. Barrett wrote in his commentary on John

Unless you can provide references to the contrary, that support the assertions in your post, the sign/symbol distinction *à la Grecque *is still up for debate.

Shalom 🙂
First, I would suggest that you try another concordance as this one is missing ten books. Did you notice that?

I have read Barrett’s work. Here are some ideas that he puts forward.

According to Barrett’s commentary, to which you refer, “John’s use of cosmology as a background for his message of salvation is paralleled in other Hellenistic literature,” (p.149). See the Greek Hermatica.

His treatment of this message is unique from the gospels as John combines Hellenistic, Gnostic revelatory discourse and Targumic exposition (p. 149).

Dodd’s Interpretation (p. 281-4) the Prologue was written at two levels, the cosmic and the incarnate being of the Word. Cosmology, as we know, was very poorly developed among ancient Jews, but highly developed among Greeks. What we have here is a Jewish theologian who ties together the prophecies of the incarnation and Greek Cosmology.

Barrett clearly states that “it is doubtful that they can be legitimately described as a rendering in Greek of Semitic verse,” (p. 149), because Semitic verse was not discovered until the 18th century. Most writers of the NT were not aware of the existence of Semitic verse. Therefore, the Prologue is genuinely Hellenistic, not a translation of previous Jewish ideas. It constitutes an entirely new vision of the Christ even using language and style unknown to the Jews and creates a branch of theology that was unknown even to the other Gospel writers, Christology. For the prologue is theology, not narrative nor poetry.

“Only in the Prologue is the term Logos used in a Christological sense. This fact must not be given undue emphasis.” (Barrett p. 151) “Much of John’s Christology is condensed into the term Logos,” (Barrett p. 151).

While it is true that the term “word” if common in the Greek edition of the OT it is used very differently from John’s use. In the OT the “word” is creative and active”, such as Genesis where “God SAYS”. However, in John the Word is timeless and the Word becomes an event. It’s a different nuance. John’s Word was the same Word that was spoken in Genesis, but his Word is also a living being who becomes an event, see Barrett p. 153. Wright also makes it clear that in the OT the term “word” was used as a means of avoiding using the name of God.

John is certainly dependant on the OT, but his use of it differs from other NT writers. He uses fewer citations from the OT and rarely uses proof texts which the other evangelists and Paul often did. To simply state that John is writing from a strictly Jewish perspective is over simplification, (Barrett, p. 27).

The term Logos existed in John’s Hellenistic world. The Logos was God and permeated all living things, (Barrett, p. 35). Where John parts company with the Stoics of Greece is that John reminds us that the Logos is a person, not a divine or supernatural system. This faith is grounded in this person. Now we have the other side of the coin. John has a brush with Greek stoicism, the divine Logos that is present in Platonic philosophy, the OT word, which was creative, but spoken; he redirects our attention to the Logos event. He reminds us that he is a theologian, a historian, and knowledgeable of Greek philosophy, enough to use its terms to present his theological Truth. The Word of God is literally is person of whom he gives witness.

Also, if we read Barrett, p. 299 ff he supports that Jesus Body and Blood in Jn 6; 55-6 means what it says. “The flesh and blood of Jesus are truly food and drink to those who received them, because by means of these a complete and reciprocal indwelling of Christ and the believer is attained.” Barrett is Protestant.
 
What we have here is a Jewish theologian who ties together the prophecies of the incarnation and Greek Cosmology.

Barrett clearly states … Therefore, the Prologue is genuinely Hellenistic, not a translation of previous Jewish ideas. …

“Only in the Prologue is the term Logos used in a Christological sense. … “Much of John’s Christology is condensed into the term Logos,” (Barrett p. 151).

… in John the Word is timeless and the Word becomes an event. … John’s Word was the same Word that was spoken in Genesis, but his Word is also a living being who becomes an event, see Barrett p. 153.

… To simply state that John is writing from a strictly Jewish perspective is over simplification, (Barrett, p. 27).

The term Logos existed in John’s Hellenistic world. The Logos was God and permeated all living things, (Barrett, p. 35). Where John parts company with the Stoics of Greece is that John reminds us that the Logos is a person, not a divine or supernatural system. … The Word of God is literally is person of whom he gives witness.

… “The flesh and blood of Jesus are truly food and drink to those who received them, because by means of these a complete and reciprocal indwelling of Christ and the believer is attained.” Barrett is Protestant.
Guys, PC, it seems to me that when Protestants speak of the word, they first mean the bible: I’m generalizing, maybe not Barrett… While I think Catholics tend to think, The Word, i.e., The Person of Christ. Maybe Protestants neglect this submersion in Greek thought for John6 because it grounds the whole book in literalness?

Whoever Barrett is, I see that he would not disagree with JR that John’s Gospel is written out of a Greek mind; thus that Barret himself doesn’t conclude what Non Serviam thinks Barrett concludes:
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NonServiam:
Unless you can provide references to the contrary, that support the assertions in your post, the sign/symbol distinction à la Grecque is still up for debate.
It looks like we’re here: The sign/symbol distinction is essential to the right understanding of John’s Gospel, including John6.
 
JR, I thought you brought up the below to support that John is writing about Jewish/Christian things out of a Greek mindset; not that he is avoiding Jewishness. Right?
I deliberately avoided going too deep into the relationship between Johanine and Semitic theology, because I thought that this would derail the topic of the thread, which is the scriptural basis of transubstantiation.

However, I must clarify several points.
  1. John is not denying his Jewish roots. His use of the Greek language is due to his personal history. He lived most of his adult life in Asia Minor among Greeks.
  2. He uses terms that were found in Greek philosophy because they make his writing comprehensible to his audience. He is not writing Greek philosophy. It is a tool, simply a tool.
  3. His Hellenistic style is natural, given his situation.
  4. Hellenistic language lends itself better to write theology than Hebrew as Hebrew is a very simple language and John is trying to present some very profound ideas. Luke also writes in Greek and goes as far as changing names and events into Greek. It makes it easier to teach theology.
  5. NS is correct, in the Patristics there are many exegetical works that show the link between Johanine theology and Semitic theology. John is not deviating away from what was revealed in the OT or underestimating it. On the other hand, he is not translating from the OT theology into Greek Christology. He is writing Christology, in Greek, using Greek concepts to drive home the Truth that was promised and insinuated in the OT. For example, there is a connection between John’s Prologue and Genesis.
I believe these details belong in a thread on Sacred Scripture, not Apologetics. This is why I try to stay away from making too many connections. To do so would turn this into an exercise in exegesis. That’s another science and another thread.

In closing, I will say this; it is difficult to do apologetics strictly from scripture, without exegesis. We either accept the rules of the thread and stick to apologetics and use the early Christian resources and philosophy which are the more common tools of apologetics or we follow the original OP’s request and do this strictly from Scripture and get into an infinite amount of exegetical details. To leave out John’s history as a person is a disservice to his writing. It also leaves out important exegetical background information.

This is not an easy task. It is more a task for a theology classroom with months and months of time to do the research. I say this most respectfully. Having studied theology I know how long it took us to go through all the material and how much material there is out there. We spent almost four years on this and never finished it. It is a lot and exhausting, despite how interesting it may be.

At some point, human intellectual exercise must assent to faith. Even if we had all of the intellectual tools at our diposal to understand divine revelation, the revelation of the eternal is infinite and the scope and breadth of human intellectual activity is sadly limitted by time. We do not exist outside of time. Therefore, we must decide to put a period at some point of our intellectual activities and assent.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want to spend four years on this topic. NOT AGAIN!!! :eek:
 
Ok I get it. I’m not as familiar with Aristotle and sign makes sence in the term used. Ok. It seems to me thought a lot of Jewish and Christian influence came from Plato. Philo being an example of this when exegesising scripture. I’m not sure what Aristotle meant about Logos but Plato meant a Demurge which was less than God giving rise to a lot of gnostic beliefs. I just wanted clarification on which Logos we were talking about John meant Jesus and put him on the same level as God. I have to agree with Catholics on this one about the Eucharist. There is more in the scriptures that support it than not and the early fathers believed it as well. And I’m a sceptic having initially left the church seeking a personal relationship with the Lord now actually studing these issues more intently! Imagine how I felt that I was wrong about the Eucharist.
Your humility and honesty says a great deal about you. There is no wiser or holier man than one who says, “I know what I don’t know.”

God bless and thanks for sharing in such an inspiring way.

JR 😉
 
Yes, I think you have expressed it. Since it has been suggested that this thread is closing down and I think there is more to discuss on this analogy, I have started another thread:

Transubstantiation Analogy form OT to NT

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3264185#post3264185

Please Join me there. Thank you and may the Peace of Christ always be with you.

Tim
PS
I am not leaving the thread. I am at this time allowing the other junior and senior players to post without distraction. I may add more comments where the conversation heads my direction again.
 
John 6:51-58 is to be interpreted literally and is one of the strongest passages that testify to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. In the Gospel of John, there is a certain pattern that helps to shed light on John 6. Whenever Jesus makes an ambiguous statement, it is usually followed by a misunderstanding/question, and this, in turn, is followed by a clarification either by Jesus or the Evangelist. So, this is the basic outline of this pattern:
  1. **Ambiguous Statement by Jesus **
  2. Misunderstanding/ Question
  3. Clarification
Now here are some examples from the Gospel of John:

John 2:19-21

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and you will raise it up in three days? But He was speaking of the temple of His body."

John 3:3-5

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?Jesus answered, "Truly Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

John 4:32-34

"But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples were saying to one another, 'no one brought Him anything to eat, did he? Jesus said to them, " My Food is to do the will of Him who sent me and to accomplish His work."

John 8:31-34

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who believed in Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered Him, "We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, “You will become free.” Jesus answered them, "Truly, Truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

Now let’s look at John 6:51-53 and see if it fits the Ambiguous Statement/Question/Clarification pattern:

"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, Truly, Truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no life in yourselves.

So, following the established pattern, verse 53 is a clarification of verses 51-52. If he were merely speaking figuratively, then we would have expected the literal meaning of the “figurative” langauge he used, as it happens in the verses I gave above and in many other places in the Bible. Instead, what we see in verse 53 is a reaffirmation of what the Jews understood Jesus to mean. So the clarification is that Jesus was speaking literally, not figuratively. If he were speaking figuratively, He would have indicated that in verse 53.

God Bless,
Michael
 
The point of the above post is that when Jesus is speaking figuratively, either Jesus Himself or the Gospel writer explains what He means. He often uses progressive revelation as a teaching method, going from ambiguity to greater clarity. There are numerous examples of this in the 4 Gospels. Here are some more:

John 4:10-14

**10Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11She said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?
12"You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?”
13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” **

John 8:56-58

**56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” **

John 10:1-10

**1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. **

John 7:38-39

38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’"
39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive


John 12:32-33

**32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die. **

John 21:18-19

**18 Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.” 19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. **

Matthew 16:6-12

6 Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”
8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?[a] 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? 10 Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? 11 How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.


This does not happen in John 6.

God Bless,
Michael
 
John 6:63

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life

This verse does not mean that Jesus was speaking figuratively. The word “Spirit” is used to refer to those things that pertain to God and the word “flesh” refers to those things that pertain to sin. We constantly see the Spirit vs. flesh construct thorughout the Bible:

Galatians 5:16

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Romans 8:5-6

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace

So what Jesus meant in John 6:63 was not that he was speaking figuratively. Rather, that His words originate from God (i.e. Spirit) and they are life giving (i.e. life). He said this in response to the rejection of His teaching. Those who were “carnally minded” rejected His teaching, while those who were “spiritually minded” accepted it. If one is in the flesh, one cannot accept His words because the flesh wars against the Spirit, effectively cutting off the person from the source of life. Consequently, the flesh profits nothing because its end is death. Those who are in the Spirit receive life (Romans 8:6). To be “carnally minded” does not mean to be literally minded. It means to have a mind that is in rebellion against God. Those who were in such a state did not accept Jesus’s words.

God Bless,
Michael
 
PCM

I have a question. I picked up on one of your posts, can’t recall which number, that you’re a college student. Am I correct?

If so, is it safe to assume that you are a young man or young woman?

I have taught many college and graduate students and I have always felt a strong bond with those who have inquisitive minds. Having been an educator and the father of two students, one in college and one in grad school, I know there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm at this time in our lives. While enthusiasm is good, blocking and refuting every point that another person or persons make is not so good. You have to balance your methodology.

On the one hand you put forth what you know in the manner that you understand it. On the other hand, you have to be willing to ask for clarification and explanations of the responses that others give you. Don’t charge back with a counter position. A good student always leaves room for the wisdom and good faith of his mentor, even when he does not understand or when he is missing information.

You began this thread with a great question. But I don’t know if you realize that you come across as not wanting to hear the response. In one of your posts you said that you did not give any credence to the RCC. If I were to ask a Muslim to explain something out of the Koran, I would have to leave some room in my mind for the possibility that Muhammad may have had some extraordinary experience of the Divine. If I give no credence to Muhammad’s experiences, then any response that a Muslim gives me has little or not weight. I wouldn’t bother asking, because I’m not truly interested. It is a waste of my time and the other person’s time.

I say this, because I’m a Jew. My understanding of the Christian faith has been through questions, not rebuttals. I’ve learned a great deal. But I had to make an a priori assumption that Christians have had an experience of the Transcendent with which I am unfamiliar. Otherwise, the questioning is a waste of time.

It is obvious that you know that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe in transubstantiation and that both have discussed this topic ad nauseam through the centuries. Both arrive at the same conclusion. If you’re interested in knowing how they arrive at this conclusion, it’s a fair question.

But, if your interest is in proving that your thinking on this subject is correct, then you must grapple with yourself, not with Catholics and Orthodox. You must prove to yourself that your methodology and your conclusions are accurate. This is simple Philosophy of Theology. One starts with a premise. You develop a method to prove that your premise is correct. You test your method to make sure that it is valid and that it does what you want it to do, to support your premise or disprove it. Once you are certain that your method is efficacious, you apply it to your premise. If it proves your premise to be true, then you no longer have a premise, now you have a conclusion. You share your conclusion with your audience and the methodology that you used to arrive there.

My suggestion, either open your mind to the possibility that Catholics and Orthodox have credibility on this subject and listen to how they arrive at this belief or change your approach. Present your belief and how you arrived at it. Then ask your audience to scrutinize your system to see if it works. You’ll never know if your system works, unless someone else tries it and arrives at the same place.

I think that what you’re trying to do here is more in the realm of Philosophy of Theology than apologetics. What do you think?

Do you have enough training in this discipline? It’s not a matter of what you believe; it’s a matter of systems. Do you know the systems? Which have you used? What have they pointed to?

I hope you think about this. 🙂
 
An altogether edifying post and I thank you. I have one request. Do not give in to the pressure of the world and use “CE” instead of “AD”. May seem a small thing but I think not. Excellent post otherwise.
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to offend.

It’s a force of habit. I’m a Jew. I have written dates this way forever. I’ll be more thoughtful next time.

Thanks for pointing this out.

JR:)
 
JReducation

Your contributions have been so thoroughly Catholic I assumed you were and that is what prompted my request about the AD versus CE. If you are a Jew you are hardly bound by the Bishops’ request so obviously you can write it any way you want.

I must say that I have enjoyed your posts 329, 342 and 345 are awesome. I am new at this “posting” stuff and a cradle Catholic but want to learn more to be able ot explain the Faith to people who ask. This thread has been of great interest and edification. Your posts have given me ways of looking at this and understanding it which I had not heard before and I thank you for them.

Keep up the good work.
 
Having been born and raised in the Jewish faith, I can say this, because I know my people and our history.

Much of what Jesus said and did had been alleged before and later by others who claimed to be the saviours of Israel. Heck, we still have men and women who want to play saviours to Israel.

If there truly was such a person as Jesus Christ, what made him unique among our people was one thing and one thing only, the connection that he makes between himself and manna from the desert. No other known messiah had ever proclaimed themselves to be literal food and drink that gives eternal life.

When the gospel says that people left and that he asked his friends if they were leaving too, it makes perfect sense to me. The Jews who were listening left because they understood what he was saying. He was offering them his body and blood as literal food and drink. In Semitic theology and Jewish law, this is heresy. One does not consume the blood of animals, much less the blood of man.

Secondly, only God can give himself in such a manner. Therefore, Jesus was claiming to be God. The promise to Israel was that we would receive a saviour. Neither the Torah nor the Talmud make it clear that the Saviour is God himself. If Jesus proclaimed himself as saviour, he was worthy of attention, because Israel needed one, especially under Roman occupation. To proclaim that he could overrule Jewish law and offer human flesh and blood as food and drink, was the same as proclaiming that he is God. In Jewish logic, only the law giver is above the law. It stands to reason that those who knew him as the son of the carpenter, would believe that he was either insane or a heretic. In either case, it was dangerous. He would eventually get into serious trouble with the authorities and so would anyone with him.

This is why John does not offer a explanation… The behaviour of Jesus’ audience made it clear to John’s mind, that they understood Jesus very well and that his statement was radical to the extreme.

What is left for us today? We can say like the Jews of that day that Jesus’ statement is too radical or we can accept it. To gloss it over with all kinds of interpretations negates the other part of the narrative. If the point was symbolic, why did the Jews put space between Jesus and them? After all, he had committed no crime. To any Jew, it is pretty obvious why they pulled away. He was claiming to do what only God can do, which was a claim to be God.

This is how John’s use of the word sign, comes into play. Constantly through Jesus’ ministry people ask him for a sign, a proof. He tells them that he will give them a proof. He will give them his body and blood as bread and wine. They did not ask him for symbols. They asked him signs. This is common in all four gospels. “Lord, give us a sign.” The sign that Jesus offers in Chapter 6 is too radical. If you say that it’s a symbol, then you have to say that the Jews misunderstood him and thus ran away. They knew exactly what he meant and they believed that he meant it. That’s why he was put to death. He claimed to be “I AM.” He was a heretic. If his statement was symbolic, then the crucifixion was a big misunderstanding. He was not a heretic, just misunderstood. Ooops! Sorry Jesus. This line of thinking makes him look like a pathetic victim, as Albert Schweitzer said in The Quest for the Historical Jesus. I believe that Jesus made some radical statements, such as this and for this he was put to death.

An offer to give his body and blood as bread and wine to eat and drink would drive any Jew away from him, unless they were convinced that he was I AM. Only those who believed this would take their chances and remain by his side, such as John did.
 
An offer to give his body and blood as bread and wine to eat and drink would drive any Jew away from him, unless they were convinced that he was I AM. Only those who believed this would take their chances and remain by his side, such as John did.
Great! Your posts are outstanding. And come on, you like talking about this, even though you’ve been over it a million times it seems–for it’s the best topic we could share. Thank you for helping me see even more how scripture teaches transubstantiation, JRed!
 
Having been born and raised in the Jewish faith, I can say this, because I know my people and our history.

Much of what Jesus said and did had been alleged before and later by others who claimed to be the saviours of Israel. Heck, we still have men and women who want to play saviours to Israel.

If there truly was such a person as Jesus Christ, what made him unique among our people was one thing and one thing only, the connection that he makes between himself and manna from the desert. No other known messiah had ever proclaimed themselves to be literal food and drink that gives eternal life.

When the gospel says that people left and that he asked his friends if they were leaving too, it makes perfect sense to me. The Jews who were listening left because they understood what he was saying. He was offering them his body and blood as literal food and drink. In Semitic theology and Jewish law, this is heresy. One does not consume the blood of animals, much less the blood of man.

Secondly, only God can give himself in such a manner. Therefore, Jesus was claiming to be God. The promise to Israel was that we would receive a saviour. Neither the Torah nor the Talmud make it clear that the Saviour is God himself. If Jesus proclaimed himself as saviour, he was worthy of attention, because Israel needed one, especially under Roman occupation. To proclaim that he could overrule Jewish law and offer human flesh and blood as food and drink, was the same as proclaiming that he is God. In Jewish logic, only the law giver is above the law. It stands to reason that those who knew him as the son of the carpenter, would believe that he was either insane or a heretic. In either case, it was dangerous. He would eventually get into serious trouble with the authorities and so would anyone with him.

This is why John does not offer a explanation… The behaviour of Jesus’ audience made it clear to John’s mind, that they understood Jesus very well and that his statement was radical to the extreme.

What is left for us today? We can say like the Jews of that day that Jesus’ statement is too radical or we can accept it. To gloss it over with all kinds of interpretations negates the other part of the narrative. If the point was symbolic, why did the Jews put space between Jesus and them? After all, he had committed no crime. To any Jew, it is pretty obvious why they pulled away. He was claiming to do what only God can do, which was a claim to be God.

This is how John’s use of the word sign, comes into play. Constantly through Jesus’ ministry people ask him for a sign, a proof. He tells them that he will give them a proof. He will give them his body and blood as bread and wine. They did not ask him for symbols. They asked him signs. This is common in all four gospels. “Lord, give us a sign.” The sign that Jesus offers in Chapter 6 is too radical. If you say that it’s a symbol, then you have to say that the Jews misunderstood him and thus ran away. They knew exactly what he meant and they believed that he meant it. That’s why he was put to death. He claimed to be “I AM.” He was a heretic. If his statement was symbolic, then the crucifixion was a big misunderstanding. He was not a heretic, just misunderstood. Ooops! Sorry Jesus. This line of thinking makes him look like a pathetic victim, as Albert Schweitzer said in The Quest for the Historical Jesus. I believe that Jesus made some radical statements, such as this and for this he was put to death.

An offer to give his body and blood as bread and wine to eat and drink would drive any Jew away from him, unless they were convinced that he was I AM. Only those who believed this would take their chances and remain by his side, such as John did.
Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against.”
{Luke 2, 34}

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
John 6:63

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life

This verse does not mean that Jesus was speaking figuratively. The word “Spirit” is used to refer to those things that pertain to God and the word “flesh” refers to those things that pertain to sin. We constantly see the Spirit vs. flesh construct thorughout the Bible:

Galatians 5:16

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Romans 8:5-6

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace

So what Jesus meant in John 6:63 was not that he was speaking figuratively. Rather, that His words originate from God (i.e. Spirit) and they are life giving (i.e. life). He said this in response to the rejection of His teaching. Those who were “carnally minded” rejected His teaching, while those who were “spiritually minded” accepted it. If one is in the flesh, one cannot accept His words because the flesh wars against the Spirit, effectively cutting off the person from the source of life. Consequently, the flesh profits nothing because its end is death. Those who are in the Spirit receive life (Romans 8:6). To be “carnally minded” does not mean to be literally minded. It means to have a mind that is in rebellion against God. Those who were in such a state did not accept Jesus’s words.

God Bless,
Michael
Fantastic posts Mike. All of them.

God bless,
Ut
 
John 6:63
We constantly see the Spirit vs. flesh construct thorughout the Bible:
While I understand the use of vs. as a way to illustrate a comparison I rather think it is flesh and spirit… so that it is not a juxtaposition or component/composite relationship but a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. We are more than just a ghost in a machine.
 
Neither the Torah nor the Talmud make it clear that the Saviour is God himself. If Jesus proclaimed himself as saviour, he was worthy of attention, because Israel needed one, especially under Roman occupation. To proclaim that he could overrule Jewish law and offer human flesh and blood as food and drink, was the same as proclaiming that he is God. In Jewish logic, only the law giver is above the law. It stands to reason that those who knew him as the son of the carpenter, would believe that he was either insane or a heretic. In either case, it was dangerous. He would eventually get into serious trouble with the authorities and so would anyone with him.

This is why John does not offer a explanation… The behaviour of Jesus’ audience made it clear to John’s mind, that they understood Jesus very well and that his statement was radical to the extreme.
This is IMHO The point many of us are driving at but here it is expressed with recourse to the historical-cultural experience and understanding of the Jews at that time. It is hardly negotiable or negate-able except by a willful descision to disragard the Hebriac mindset. Thank you JR.
 
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