Does scripture interpret scripture?

[JaKael02]

The fact that the Catholic Church will not draw a crystal clear line to make it absolutely unmistakable that leaders of politics have no standing in the Catholic Church when they openly/ boldly undermine the core values of Christianity.

I agree. It’s frustrating. Ex-communication is probably drawing close for the two politicans in discussion. There are drawbacks to such an act, mainly the Bishops will be taken out of context by the popular media and will cause a worstening of Church perseception. Agree?

Their lack of response for decades has gotten us to the point where, their own membership is shaking our entire Democratic Republic.

Whole new can of worms. And a discussion here would be out of the scope you would be interested in discussing. If you are, I’d love to discuss this outside of this thread.

Thank you for considering my question.

James

 

[Lochias]

The fact that the Catholic Church will not draw a crystal clear line to make it absolutely unmistakable that leaders of politics have no standing in the Catholic Church when they openly/ boldly undermine the core values of Christianity.
Their lack of response for decades has gotten us to the point where, their own membership is shaking our entire Democratic Republic.

The Catholic Church gives such leaders of politics more credit than you, trusting that they know how to read.

However, that being said, I do understand your frustration with the issue.

It seems to me that you are unwilling or unable to trust God to sheppard His Church as needed.

Have you actually sat down and, through the lens of your faith, tried to understand why things aren’t happening the way you think they ought to be?

 

[mackbrislawn]

Meanwhile…

In the real world … Nancy Pelosi/ Joe Biden Catholics have proven that they wield the power to drive a blatant frontal attack against all Christianity … While being fully Catholic.

You’re right. The greatest enemies are from within. They just haven’t been excommunicated yet, like Hitler and Castro.

 

[1voice]

There is a crystal clear line. The teachings of the Catholic Church. Look up the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Well … The majority of voting Catholics … didnt get the memo.

 

[1voice]

The Catholic Church gives such leaders of politics more credit than you, trusting that they know how to read.

However, that being said, I do understand your frustration with the issue.

It seems to me that you are unwilling or unable to trust God to sheppard His Church as needed.

Have you actually sat down and, through the lens of your faith, tried to understand why things aren’t happening the way you think they ought to be?

Its interesting to watch how you make it my problem.

 

[JaKael02]

Well … The majority of voting Catholics … didnt get the memo.

I agree. It’s quite pathetic.

However, others weakness of faith is never a reason to walk away from the Church. For the Church remains the body of Christ. It remains his primary instrument used for our salvation.

Thank you for reading.

James

 

[1voice]

Pardon me? 54% of what? I do not know where did you get this figure, and how do you affirm from it that those 54% are catholic?.

Be Blessed, 1voice.

Without the Catholic vote … Obama could not have won the presidency.
This is very common knowledge.

…“overall, Catholics supported Obama over McCain by a nine-point margin (54% vs. 45%)”

pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/How-the-Faithful-Voted.aspx

 

[1voice]

I agree. It’s quite pathetic.

However, others weakness of faith is never a reason to walk away from the Church. For the Church remains the body of Christ. It remains his primary instrument used for our salvation.

Thank you for reading.

James

… Now,
whos going off topic?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Lets get the bus back on the road guys

 

[guanophore]

The gospel as it is laid out for us in scripture; Justification by grace alone, through faith alone, all for th Glory of God alone.

How do you suppose it happened that all the Christians for 1500 years before Calvin did not understand what was written they way he did?

ndeed he was part of the church and an expositor, he saw it as the duty of the church to engage in interpreting the scriptures for people, hence he did.

And who authorized him to do that?

if one is convinced a papacy is both unscriptural and unhistorical, one is not naturally inclined to think one must submit to it.

You are right. Individuals don’t need to submit to any part of the Apostolic faith.

Chiefly in Justification, and it’s papal doctrines and Marian ones.

This is off topic here. One is wondering what you think the CC believes about justification.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus himself “jettisoned” your “sacred” tradition.

You are confused 1voice. He jettisoned the traditions of men that were contrary to the Sacred Tradition (the Word of God).

 

[guanophore]

I dont disagree.
That doesnt change the fact that Joe Biden is a Catholic with all the rights of a Catholic …

This is false, 1voice. It is curious that you have come to a Catholic forum, and seem to enjoy posting these lies about the Catholic faith. What motivates that, I wonder?

A Catholic who has excommunicated themselves does not have Catholic rights (do you have a list of those, by the way?)

and the Nancy Pelosi wing of the Catholic Church is strong enough to vote against any “sacred tradition” and win… and then proceed to attempt to redefine the constitutional definition of religion.

This is very disrespectful to us Catholics, 1voice. There is no “Nancy Pelosi wing of the CC”. People who have left the faith cannot represent that faith. People who have fallen prey to the devil in this life often appear to be “winning”, but they are not.

Why don’t you write those two, since you seem to think it is necessary, and give them a certificate of excommunication, and inform them that their “Catholic rights” have been rescinded because you are offended by their behavior?

Reality is… It is (over 50% of voting) Catholics, by their clear choice, that created the problem they face in their fight to maintain their own Christian freedoms against a Govt that they, themselves, put into power (obama would have lost decisively without the Catholic vote)… When it was clear to any thinking Christian where Obama would try to force issues if given the chance.

No, 1Voice, you are confused again. A “clear conscience” can only be obtained by persons living in a state of grace, not by those who have left the faith, and are espousing practices contrary to the faith. A "clear conscience’ is one that is properly formed, and when such a conscience is properly formed, it will be consistent with the teachings of the Church.

The Christians that I associate with would never ever think of voting/ thinking like those fully accepted Catholics.

Maybe you can talk to them about the consequences of bearing false witness about your neighbors? Perhaps they can help you put a stop to this behavior before it gets any worse?

 

[Lincoln7]

Guanophore,

How do you suppose it happened that all the Christians for 1500 years before Calvin did not understand what was written they way he did?

Well some of them understood things in ways which he found quite right in light of scripture, hence his agreement with the fathers on many topics. How did it happen that Christians for over a thousand years prior to Vatican 1 didn’t understand that the pope was infallible? Is this not the same argument?

And who authorized him to do that?

Well naturally I view him as a man raised up by God.

This is off topic here. One is wondering what you think the CC believes about justification.

I have my copy of the catechism, I don’t agree with it; it’s denial of imputed righteousness.

Kind regards

Lincs

 

[guanophore]

“Christians I associate with”? How very elitist and un-Christian of you. .

1voice seems to have gone through some changes since coming here. He used to just very charitably disagree with Catholics, and share his testimony, which is very powerful. For some reason he has fallen into this lack of charity, and slandering Catholics with lies. It may be he will not remain on CAF much longer, and has decided to go out flaming.

 

[Lincoln7]

Lincs,
What you’re saying here could be said by any Catholic, and is traditional Christian teaching. Christ died for all, and his invitation applies to all.

But not for Calvin. Christ did not die for all, but only for the elect. For the non-elect, the reprobate, he did not die. For them there is no hope, because their fate is pre-determined. Believing the gospel or not is irrelevant.

Right?

Those who truly believe in the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ are assured of their eternal life with him yes. So truly believing the gospel is not “irrelevant”; rather those who do so are those whom God has called, justified and glorified (Rom 8:30) who know his voice (John 10:27), none of whom can be snatched from his hand nor ever perish (John 10:28), who are recipients of his mercy (Rom 9:15), whom he has prepared beforehand for glory (Rom 9:28). Believing the gosepl is not irrelevant, rather “it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Rom 1:16)

It is indeed the duty of the church to interpret the scriptures for people. But, I thought Luther’s idea was that the people could interpret scripture for themselves, without the church. “A ploughboy with a bible in his hand is equal to the pope in Rome.”

If the church is to interpret scripture, then the people don’t really need their own copies of scripture. We know that for centuries it was physically impossible for people to read their own scriptures, but they still had access to scripture by having it read to them in church.]

Indeed they did, it is rather new for everyone to have access to scripture and be educated to a level at which they can understand it, I am grateful to the Lord that I can have opportunity to read it. For the Lutheran view, JonNC has provided ample quotes from his churches confessions, for mine, I again refer people to the Westminister confessions, chapter 1.

Kind regards

Lincs

 

[Patavium]

Indeed they did, it is rather new for everyone to have access to scripture and be educated to a level at which they can understand it, I am grateful to the Lord that I can have opportunity to read it. For the Lutheran view, JonNC has provided ample quotes from his churches confessions, for mine, I again refer people to the Westminister confessions, chapter 1.

Kind regards

Lincs

I am curious, Linc. Did you agree with quotes of the confessions presented by JonNC? and did you read the confessions fully? A simple yes or not will suffice as I don’t want to bring the thread too off-topic.

 

[PJM]

=Lincoln7;9317650]PRmerger,

I don’t claim there is one… No Protestant who adheres to Sola Scriptura does… It’s a hermanutical principle, not a doctrine.
I will leave my opinion of what Paul is saying out here, but if there is this Scred Tradition, we ask to be shown it… Show us the first and second century Christians who preserved papal infallibility, who preserved the medieval understanding of purgatory, of Mary as co redemptrix and mediatrix… Are these actually traditions, or later developments, unheard of by the Apostles? Genuine questions, no aggression inteneded PR

Indeed it does, I don’t debate apostolic Traditon, I simply don’t think that the catholic understanding of tradition is all tht clear… Partim partim, which you seem to endorse… Material sufficiency? It’s not a clear cut thing. My position is that all essentials for salvation are clearly expressed in scripture, plain for all to see…

Kind regards PR

Lincs.

It’s a hermanutical principle, not a doctrine.

I believe it is a improper and incomplete understanding: WHY?

2nd. Tim. 3:16-17 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”

BUT this does NOT lesson the signifiance of Tradition and the Apostles Teachings

John.14: 26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. “ … **John.20: 22 **“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” … Acts.1: 2 “until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen”

God Bless,
pat /PJM

 

[Lincoln7]

I am curious, Linc. Did you agree with quotes of the confessions presented by JonNC? and did you read the confessions fully? A simple yes or not will suffice as I don’t want to bring the thread too off-topic.

On the role of scripture, I dont see any disagreements with myself and the Lutheran churches. On interpretation of said scriptures we have some differing views yes. I have not got through all of the Lutheran confessions as yet no, I have most of them in ebook, have read some of them, I enjoy Luther a lot.

Lincs

 

[Lincoln7]

It’s a hermanutical principle, not a doctrine.

I believe it is a improper and incomplete understanding: WHY?

2nd. Tim. 3:16-17 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”

BUT this does NOT lesson the signifiance of Tradition and the Apostles Teachings

John.14: 26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. “ … **John.20: 22 **“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” … Acts.1: 2 “until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen”

God Bless,
pat /PJM

Quite so, the Aposltes preaching was authoritative. I simply state that as scripture is apostolic teaching in written form it carries the same authority, which comes from Jesus Christ. Indeed, tradition is a valuable guide to scripture, and to discard it would ba great loss. I simply don’t hold it too the same level as the scriptures, which teach more plainly and with more authority.

Lincs.

 

[GaryTaylor]

denial of imputed righteousness.

Linc its much deeper than the CC, all the Apostolic Churchs are in line with this teaching. Of course there are also many Mainline LIne Protestant areas which also agree with Apostolic teaching in this area etc. I suppose you would say we have surpassed the Pharisees?

Or is it within a realm of possibility the Apostolic Churchs may actually be right?

One of the church’s most important responsibilities in upholding the truth is warning people regarding false teachers and deviant doctrines.

Peace