Does scripture interpret scripture?

[PRmerger]

Jesus himself “jettisoned” your “sacred” tradition.

Jesus jettisoned man-made traditions, but not sacred tradition, 1voice.

In fact, he jettisoned your own man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura, and thus your comment above is a profound irony.

 

[PRmerger]

I am still waiting your arguments refuting Apostolic Tradition, friend.

Actually, Patavium, 1voice has already acknowledged the existence of Apostolic Tradition right here:

Probably the same thing that Phillip did when he saw the Ethiopian eunich on the road from Jerusalem to Gaza.

As 1voice acknowledges, Phillip had to explain the Scriptures to the Ethiopian eunuch–the eunuch could not go by Scripture Alone. Rather, he relied on Apostolic Authority to reveal God’s Word to him.

 

[Patavium]

Actually, Patavium, 1voice has already acknowledged the existence of Apostolic Tradition right here:

As 1voice acknowledges, Phillip had to explain the Scriptures to the Ethiopian eunuch–the eunuch could not go by Scripture Alone. Rather, he relied on Apostolic Authority to reveal God’s Word to him.

God Bless PRmerger!

 

[PRmerger]

Where did you refute the apostolic tradition? I just saw how you supported reading scripture through the lens of apostolic tradition.

Yes, this is quite apparent that she has offered apologia for apostolic tradition without realizing it.

 

[guanophore]

Do you know what “being fully Catholic” means? How come you be Roman Catholic, and disobey the Roman Catholic Church teachings?

Why do you choose to believe Pelosi and Biden, and not the Bishops or the Pope of the Catholic Church?

**Is it because it agrees with your distorted view of the Roman Catholic Church? **

I think you may have hit that nail on the head.

1voice seems to have a strong need for all persons claiming to be Catholic to never fall away from their faith. That is speaking to a need inside himself that is not getting met. He is upset by these fallen Catholics - so upset that he finds it necessary to spread falsehoods about Catholicism.

 

[guanophore]

I proved the point somewhere above... That which does not support the "Sacred Tradition" paradigm is ignored... or explained away as an anomaly by you folks.

Well of course it is! The Apostles left us strict instructions that we will be accursed if we accept a different gospel than the one they delivered to us. Sacred Tradition is the Gospel that was committed once for all to the Church. We are not at liberty to change it, or give up parts of it, as happened during the Reformation. It is ONE FAITH, and must be kept whole and entire.

Paul, the man chosen by Jesus to be one of the strongest forces in the world against darkness … was indued with power through the ministering of a man that had no special calling on his life other than to hear and obey Jesus … Same as the rest of us.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we? It seems you have omitted a good number of verses in the Scripture to arrive at this erroneous idea.

 

[guanophore]

Good question. I dont get how Catholics rationalize … either.

We think through the faith through the lens of Apostolic Teaching, which is contained in Sacred Tradition. If you would like to understand you could learn.

It is very painful/ frustrating to watch.
The secularization of the Catholic Church appears as strong or stronger than any of the “Protestant” religions that the Catholics so vehemently claim to be above.

One has to wonder why this is so painful and frustrating for you. Why do you have this need for Catholics to be so perfect? What is that about?

 

[mackbrislawn]

Those who truly believe in the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ are assured of their eternal life with him yes. So truly believing the gospel is not “irrelevant”; rather those who do so are those whom God has called, justified and glorified (Rom 8:30) who know his voice (John 10:27), none of whom can be snatched from his hand nor ever perish (John 10:28), who are recipients of his mercy (Rom 9:15), whom he has prepared beforehand for glory (Rom 9:28). Believing the gosepl is not irrelevant, rather “it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Rom 1:16)

 

[guanophore]

I havent mentioned anyone that broke away. The people that I mentioned are in perfectly good standing.

By what standard did you measure their standing, 1voice?

I am sure the Biships need to see your standards of measurement, because they are useing those passed down from the Apostls, which are clearly different from yours.

 

[Patavium]

I think you may have hit that nail on the head.

1voice seems to have a strong need for all persons claiming to be Catholic to never fall away from their faith. That is speaking to a need inside himself that is not getting met. He is upset by these fallen Catholics - so upset that he finds it necessary to spread falsehoods about Catholicism.

I know. Very unfortunate to see 1voice react like this . May 1voice find peace.

God bless, guanophore!

 

[guanophore]

The fact that the Catholic Church will not draw a crystal clear line to make it absolutely unmistakable that leaders of politics have no standing in the Catholic Church when they openly/ boldly undermine the core values of Christianity.
Their lack of response for decades has gotten us to the point where, their own membership is shaking our entire Democratic Republic.

What is it about this line that lacks clarity for you, 1voice?

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0403402.htm

Do you want the Bishops to have them kidnapped, and have a big A for Apostate tatooed on their foreheads?

 

[guanophore]

Its interesting to watch how you make it my problem.

Well, since you came here with the problem, and have been repeating it over many posts, it is not hard to notice it.

 

[stewstew03]

For Lutherans, its always been the same. I thought I posted this before, but…

from the Formula of Concord

Hope this helps hold the target in place.

Jon

Then we agree - Sola Scriptura is not found in scripture; only creeds.

 

[guanophore]

Linc its much deeper than the CC, all the Apostolic Churchs are in line with this teaching. Of course there are also many Mainline LIne Protestant areas which also agree with Apostolic teaching in this area etc. I suppose you would say we have surpassed the Pharisees?

Or is it within a realm of possibility the Apostolic Churchs may actually be right?

One of the church’s most important responsibilities in upholding the truth is warning people regarding false teachers and deviant doctrines.

Peace

The Apostles did teach imputed (reckoned) righteousness:

Rom 4:22-25
2 That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words, “it was reckoned to him,” were written not for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

The difference between what the Apostles taught, and the Reformers, is that the Apostles taught that, when Jesus makes a deposit in the account, there is actually a BALANCE there. For the Reformers, the convert is not actually MADE righteous, but only “declared” righteous. God has somehow doctored the books, hiding from Himself the credit and debit columns, so that a credit that does not really exist is set against the debt.

 

[stewstew03]

… stands against Christian truth.

1voice, we’re way off-topic but do want to point out some irony… you realize that the man you say “stands against Christian truth” is a protestant, right?

 

[OLofMtCarmel]

(2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Timothy 3:15, 2 Thessolonians 3:6)

It is logical that these .passages of scripture should not stand in and of themselves because tradition and scripture, together, tell us what we need to believe. And it takes an interpreter to do so. What better way than to have a collection of well educated men, guided by the Holy Spirit, to interpret that which has rightfully been passed down to them by Jesus. An inanimate object can never be it’s own authority. That implies a circular argument, I think. Jesus is the authority, and since He’s in Heaven sitting at the right hand of the Father, it explains why he placed the authority over the Church, the congregation(s). Having seen so many divisions in the Protestant churches I was part of over the years, I realized something was wrong.

I learned from my mistakes that people are flawed because of the Fall of Man from the garden. The weakness that man suffers today is what the Church calls “original sin.” But its amazing how, in spite of man’s flaws, the Church still exists today. No other church can make this claim.

 

[Lincoln7]

Mack,

You mean everyone who believes in the gospel will be saved? Hmm, it is odd that the pre-destined elect all seem to be concentrated in time and place for just a few centuries in northern Europe and North America.

Those who truly believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ yes, who have placed all their hope in Him for salvation and believe on Him will be saved yes; "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." (Eph 1:13-14)

I’m not sure where you think I’ve stated that salvation has only been available since the reformation period? Or is available only to a few limited nations?

So, we do cause our own salvation by believing the gospel. Therefore we are not predestined after all. We have a say in our salvation–God will not save us unless we believe.

No we don’t cause our own salvation. As my last post indicates; those who truly believe in the gospel can only do so because of effectual calling; "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44) They are brought to faith, which alone is the cause of justification, to the exclusion of works (Rom 3:28, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:9) solely by the grace of God; "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God…" (Eph 2:8) Faith itself if a gift of God. Those whom God has predestined come to faith in His Son upon hearing the Gospel proclaimed to them (Rom 10:17); "he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will," (Eph 1:5) As such it is solely by grace alone, through faith alone.

And all this time I thought God had already selected those He wanted to save, and had selected those He wanted to damn. That is why I asked what was the purpose of scripture and preaching the gospel if salvation or damnation had already been decided! It would have been completely pointless in that case.

So as has been shown, you seem to have a misunderstanding of my position. The Lord has indeed chosen His people, but we are still responsible for preaching the gospel boldly to all nations, to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, his saving death and resurrection; "to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness," (Acts 4:28-29) Gods plan, but what a privilege to be a part of The Lords work!
There is a post on Calvinism and its effect on missionary work here: beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/calvinism-and-missions.html

This means salvation is open even to Catholics.

Indeed. I don’t dare to limit salvation to only those who adhere fully to every point of tulip! By no means at all. Not that I agree with the CC’s teaching on justification.

What you really mean is everyone educated to the level they can read it, not understand it. Many people read the scriptures but do not understand. They do not understand because they still are unlearned. The good news is not to be learned via reading, but by hearing. Hearing from an evangelist of the church. Even in Peter’s day they were reading scripture and twisting it to their own destruction.

Yes, for it has many hard truths, which are hard to understand (2 Pet 3:16), as such people should always listen to Godly teachers, and the continued wisdom of the church from its very founding. But I won’t go so far as to say that the good news is not to be learned by reading, I know many people who have come to know Christ by hearing the gospel through reading scripture. Yes a believer in the Lord should boldly proclaim it to them, but I’m sure some haven’t had this if you get me? With Augustine was it not “take up and read!” which brought him to God, by reading scripture? - newadvent.org/fathers/110108.htm see part 12. My own conversion was down to reading…

You read the scriptures within the context of the Westminster confession, JonNC in the Augsburg confession. So that is the way you have learned to read scripture; that is good, because scripture was never meant to be read in a vacuum. Both Old and New Testaments were written within the framework of the pre-existing people of God.

Indeed, as I’ve said, to throw out church would be both unwise and unscriptural.

Kind regards

Lincs.

 

[Lincoln7]

The Apostles did teach imputed (reckoned) righteousness:

Rom 4:22-25
2 That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words, “it was reckoned to him,” were written not for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

The difference between what the Apostles taught, and the Reformers, is that the Apostles taught that, when Jesus makes a deposit in the account, there is actually a BALANCE there. For the Reformers, the convert is not actually MADE righteous, but only “declared” righteous. God has somehow doctored the books, hiding from Himself the credit and debit columns, so that a credit that does not really exist is set against the debt.

Hi Gunaophore,

We draw the distinction between Justification, as right standing before God, based solely on the merits of Jesus Christ. And sanctification, whereby one is gradually conformed to the image of Christ more and more day by day. They are separate in my theology, but the latter will always follow the former.

Kind regards, hope you’re well.

Lincs

 

[1voice]

1voice seems to have gone through some changes since coming here. He used to just very charitably disagree with Catholics, and share his testimony, which is very powerful. For some reason he has fallen into this lack of charity, and slandering Catholics with lies. It may be he will not remain on CAF much longer, and has decided to go out flaming.

Huh?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Lets get the bus back on the road guys

I didn’t give this for my own reading pleasure.