Does Scripture really "condemn" homosexuality?

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Neither Gay nor Same-sex Attraction inherently contain ideology. It’s just a description, not a cause for scandal.etc.
“Gay” is not a neutral term, “same sex attraction” is better, but very limited. When I meet “gay” people the whiff of idealogy is present, whereas if I meet people with SSA I likely never know, they don’t advertise.

There is no heterosexual equivalent to the gay brand, which in itself tells you a lot.

Consider, how many other sinful behaviors have formed a movement, demanded rights, printed bumper stickers?
 
[emphasis added]

You cannot be serious.

It’s one thing to believe homosexual acts (including marriage) are immoral and against God’s natural plan for humanity.

Another to be blithely callous.

I see no profit in furthering this discussion anymore…Good day to you…
So I am just supposed to accept your logic and definitions?

Your argument is with biology, and the definition of marriage.
 
Maybe some JHow, but not all. You have extremist in every group including Catholicism.

My brother, that happens to be gay, simply wants to be treated as a equal citizen as you and I. Is that too much to ask?
Hold up now, you’re making an appeal via rhetoric before you’ve established the underlying substantive point.

Specifically, you feel that he’s not being “treated as an equal citizen”, but you need to make that case as to how that may or may not be.
 
Reply to the OP: Scripture explicitly condemns homosexual activity. The question is long since settled and no matter what kind of revisionist garbage the homosexualists spew, there is no denying it.
 
I read your link and truly I believe it just does not have anything worth to consider seriously. I am not going to try to put down the Episcopalians or Anglicans or any other group that accepts homosexual behavior against the teachings of Christianity. “There is not such a thing as a Christian practicing homosexual

I am interest in what the Bible teaches to Christians, Catholics, since Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to do away with it.

Let us go to the Old Testament first:
  • “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination” Leviticus 18:22
Do not forget that God is speaking and Moses is only telling the people what He says.

A man who lies with another man is the problem, you do not have to give them names (gay or homosexuals or lesbians or what so ever). **IT IS AN ABOMINATION altogether and for the sake that you understand exactly what is meant by lie **, it adds as with a woman, because you do not lie with a woman except for having sex.
  • The story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the depravity of homosexuals **Genesis 19:1-29 **
Now God is telling you that men who lie with men commit an abomination, and the practice of abominable things (there are many) bring judgment over the people. Have you read the Apocalypse or Book of Revelation? There tells us what is going to happen in the future (it is a book of prophesy) and which is the end of the people who hate God by practicing this abominations:

"And for the cowardly, the faithless, the abominable, murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” Rev 21:8

In the New Testament also we have these passages:

“26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and **the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men **and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” Romans 1: 26-27

“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,” 1 Cor 6:9

“…the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 immoral persons, homosexuals, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.” 1 Tim 1:9-11

"Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7

"(…) Basing itself on **Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved." ** CCC 2357

“Homosexual persons are called to chastity” CCC 2359

“God will judge the immoral and adulterous” Hebrews 13:4

“God judges those outside.” 1 Cor 1:13

My recomendation is: do not participate in condoning these practices but let your stand be firm with the Church.


In the love of Christ and of His teachings,
Gloria
 
I have stated many times that I do not believe in same sex marriage as defined in Scripture. I do not have a problem with same sex civil unions.

Thank you for stating what I have been stating over and over. same sex…sex is the same as opposite sex…sex. Many try to divide the two but at the end of the day they are still the same.
Same sex ‘sex’ is the same as opposite sex ‘sex?’ Obviously they cannot be the same. Only opposite sex couples have reproductive systems which are complementary to each other. There is only one act which can be conjugal or marital, and it is simply not possible between same sex couples. That’s why same sex ‘marriage’ is not possible.

I think maybe you meant that sexual sin is sexual sin, no matter what kind, and that is correct.
 
Same sex ‘sex’ is the same as opposite sex ‘sex?’ Obviously they cannot be the same. Only opposite sex couples have reproductive systems which are complementary to each other. There is only one act which can be conjugal or marital, and it is simply not possible between same sex couples. That’s why same sex ‘marriage’ is not possible.

I think maybe you meant that sexual sin is sexual sin, no matter what kind, and that is correct.
Yeah that is what I meant lol. Thanks
 
Hold up now, you’re making an appeal via rhetoric before you’ve established the underlying substantive point.

Specifically, you feel that he’s not being “treated as an equal citizen”, but you need to make that case as to how that may or may not be.
No rhetoric here my friend. I did not write the article and even stated earlier that it is a bit out there in left field. I suppose anything that goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church is deemed rhetoric so I can see where you are coming from. 😉

If you seriously believe homosexuals are treated equally then this conversation is doomed from the start.
I read your link and truly I believe it just does not have anything worth to consider seriously.

“God will judge the immoral and adulterous” Hebrews 13:4

“God judges those outside.” 1 Cor 1:13

My recomendation is: do not participate in condoning these practices but let your stand be firm with the Church.


In the love of Christ and of His teachings,
Gloria
Thanks Gloria! An awesome well thought out post! I in no way agree with that article 100% or probably even 30% but it brings up a few points that make for a good conversation. 🙂

Hebrews 13:4 is a really interesting verse. “God will judge the immoral and adulterous.” That verses rings true for those who divorced and then remarried, those having sex outside of marriage, those have sex before marriage…etc. Not just those who are gay right?
 
The author really tried his heart out, especially on the last one:

Verse 4,5: “Jesus answered, ‘Have you not read that the One who made them at the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh”? Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate’.”

Instead of touching on the obvious fact that only men and women are permitted to Marry each other, he begins going on about Eunuch’s being feminine.

As for the letters, although they do out rightly condemn homosexuality, even if one believes they don’t one must still understand that any sex outside of marriage is condemned by Christ, and Homosexuals can’t be married.
👍
 
**
No… Same-sex attraction, in and of itself, is not sinful.
Marriage is defined by the Bible as strictly being between one man and one woman. And any sex outside of that is sinful. So because a same-sex couple cannot validly marry, any homosexual acts are sinful, just as any other sexual acts outside of (heterosexual) marriage.**

I disagree with you. Jesus says that it’s a sin to even lust.
 
Hebrews 13:4 is a really interesting verse. “God will judge the immoral and adulterous.”

That verses rings true for those who divorced and then remarried, those having sex outside of marriage, those have sex before marriage…etc. Not just those who are gay right?
**The gay practices are not just unnatural: **
“Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, **indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural **lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” Jude 1:7
But also their practices are “abominable” to God and if you continue reading the quote in Leviticus 8:22-23: “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23 And you shall not lie with any beast and defile yourself with it, neither shall any woman give herself to a beast to lie with it: it is perversion.”

Therefore if we should be in red alert when we see immoral people around, we even should be more with those whose practices are abominable. But they all will have the same end in the lake of fire. We should never imitate these practices.

If we do not purify our hearts we will not see God. So these kind of practices should not even occupied our thoughts.

Hope this helps,
In the love of Christ and of His teachings
Gloria
 
Hebrews 13:4 is a really interesting verse. “God will judge the immoral and adulterous.” That verses rings true for those who divorced and then remarried, those having sex outside of marriage, those have sex before marriage…etc. Not just those who are gay right?
I thought also why your example is just truth for Christians, because in the Old Testament divorce was permitted but adulterers were put to death and in sex before marriage the man was obliged to marry the virgin, and he was never able to divorce her. But if the woman was already betrothed to someone else, both were put to death, with exceptions. (Deut 22:13-30)

I thought in giving you an example any way about the judgment of the immoral and adulterous comparing it with the judgment for gays.

You have two murders. One kills someone with a gun, the other one kills someone and the proceeded to cut the body into pieces. If they live in a US state that has the death penalty, both will receive it. But who do you think is worse even though both are murderers?

Hope this will help you.
Gloria
 
But also their practices are “abominable” to God and if you continue reading the quote in Leviticus 8:22-23: “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23 And you shall not lie with any beast and defile yourself with it, neither shall any woman give herself to a beast to lie with it: it is perversion.”
But if we use Leviticus for such laws, that kind of backfires in one’s face. Why? Because one cannot pick which laws in Leviticus one chooses to believe and follow and discard the others.

Example:

Leviticus 19:27 reads “You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.”

Leviticus 11:8, which is discussing pigs, reads “You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.”

Leviticus 11:8, which is discussing pigs, reads “You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.” So much for Thanksgiving Day football! 😦

No tattoos. Leviticus 19:28 reads, “You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.”

1 Timothy 2:9 doesn’t like your gold necklace at all. Or your pearl necklace. Or any clothes you’re wearing that you didn’t get from Forever 21, Old Navy or H&M.
“Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments.”

I can go on and on as I’m sure you know Leviticus since you quoted it. I am not making a fuss but simply want to put out that how can one use laws in the OT to condemn an action and not follow all the others? :eek:
I thought also why your example is just truth for Christians, because in the Old Testament divorce was permitted
Permitted but with stipulations.
You have two murders. One kills someone with a gun, the other one kills someone and the proceeded to cut the body into pieces. If they live in a US state that has the death penalty, both will receive it. But who do you think is worse even though both are murderers?
Both are murderers. Two men. One rapes a 37yr old woman and the other rapes a 6yr old girl. Who do you think is worse even though both raped someone. See how that example doesn’t really gel?
 
But if we use Leviticus for such laws, that kind of backfires in one’s face. Why? Because one cannot pick which laws in Leviticus one chooses to believe and follow and discard the others.

Example:

Leviticus 19:27 reads “You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.”

Leviticus 11:8, which is discussing pigs, reads “You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.”

Leviticus 11:8, which is discussing pigs, reads “You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.” So much for Thanksgiving Day football! 😦

No tattoos. Leviticus 19:28 reads, "You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.

I can go on and on as I’m sure you know Leviticus since you quoted it. I am not making a fuss but simply want to put out that how can one use laws in the OT to condemn an action and not follow all the others? :eek:"
Yes you are right and here you should know what Saint Agustin said about the Old Testament:

"There are in the Old Testament prescriptions that even today they must be kept, obeying them, particularly if they are commandments that one has to do, or abstain of something, if they are prohibitions.

About these passages that one finds in the Sacred Scriptures that command, forbid or permit something, that is concern with a pious life and good customs and they must be kept even today in New Testament times. This is why I started this work to put together, with the help of God, all the precepts taking them out from the Canonical books and put them together to be able to be keep them, like in a mirror." (Saint Augustine, The Mirror of Sacred Scripture, in the introduction)

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind; Matthew 22:37 and You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Matthew 22:39 on these two commandments, says He, hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:40 Whatever, therefore, we are by God’s law forbidden, and whatever we are bidden to do, we are forbidden and bidden with the direct object of fulfilling these two commandments.”
( newadvent.org/fathers/1504.htm Saint Augustine ‘On man’s perfection in righteousness’).

And if you did not know, in this work by Saint Augustine, The mirror of Sacred Scripture, you could read precisely all the prohibitions that you are quoting above: that we shall not make tattoos and the explanation of the cutting of the sides of your head, as they use to do it as a custom when someone died (tradition of the gentile nations where the Jews were living) and many others that we also should be keeping, with the exception about animals and others that changed with Christ advent.

Saint Augustine does not keep what is not necessary any more because of the teachings of our Lord, like: “Listen and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles. (…) 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth enters the stomach, and goes out into the sewer? 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is what defiles. 19 For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander."

Therefore we do not worry any more about prohibitions and regulations for eating animals and so on in the O.T.
But if you knew the effect of pig in your body, for the sake of health you will not eat it, but certainly not because makes you impure but sick!
1 Timothy 2:9 doesn’t like your gold necklace at all. Or your pearl necklace. Or any clothes you’re wearing that you didn’t get from Forever 21, Old Navy or H&M.
“Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments.”
I am afraid you are judging me without knowing me. I follow absolutely this teaching, probably for your surprise. So I do not wear gold, nor silver or precious stones and my clothing is modest and discreet. And my cloths normally I buy them only on sales, as far as possible. I do not watch TV (I do not have even one) and I use the internet for the glory of the Lord. I do not go to the Cinema except to see something that is been proved that does not have sexual scenes, preferably Walt Disney like, or funny (may be once a year, and only if necessary, in fact I can not remember when was the last time I went to see a film!!)

But in this assertion and certainty that you are taking against me, I can see that you do not like my stand along with the Bible against homosexuality. Review yourself why you are attacking me without knowing me?

In the love of God and of His Laws.
Gloria
Permitted but with stipulations.
Yes but divorce was permitted and men just will have to give his wife a bill of divorce for almost anything and it was done, she was out of the house. (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)
Both are murderers.
Two men. One rapes a 37yr old woman and the other rapes a 6yr old girl. Who do you think is worse even though both raped someone. See how that example doesn’t really gel?
And really you can not see who is worse!!! The older woman will come to terms with it somehow because she is mature, but the little one will suffer horrible. I tell you the one who raped the little girl will received many more years in prison than the other one, because will also be accused of pedophilia. Even though both stand to go to the lake of fire at the end times. So does not gel? (I really do not know what you mean, but I can guess. English is not my mother tongue, it is Spanish)
 
Yes you are right and here you should know what Saint Agustin said about the Old Testament:

"There are in the Old Testament prescriptions that even today they must be kept, obeying them, particularly if they are commandments that one has to do, or abstain of something, if they are prohibitions.

About these passages that one finds in the Sacred Scriptures that command, forbid or permit something, that is concern with a pious life and good customs and they must be kept even today in New Testament times. This is why I started this work to put together, with the help of God, all the precepts taking them out from the Canonical books and put them together to be able to be keep them, like in a mirror." (Saint Augustine, The Mirror of Sacred Scripture, in the introduction)
A wonderful man and saint!
I am afraid you are judging me without knowing me. I follow absolutely this teaching, probably for your surprise. So I do not wear gold, nor silver or precious stones and my clothing is modest and discreet. And my cloths normally I buy them only on sales, as far as possible. I do not watch TV (I do not have even one) and I use the internet for the glory of the Lord. I do not go to the Cinema except to see something that is been proved that does not have sexual scenes, preferably Walt Disney like, or funny (may be once a year, and only if necessary, in fact I can not remember when was the last time I went to see a film!!)
That is wonderful of you and I hope God will forever bless you in all that you do for Him and in His name! I already address the part about judging you in a private message. Please forgive me if I came across that way. It was not my intent! 🙂
But in this assertion and certainty that you are taking against me, I can see that you do not like my stand along with the Bible against homosexuality. Review yourself why you are attacking me without knowing me?
I totally respect your stance on such a thing. We are all called to be a witness to what we believe. I would hope you stood firm for your beliefs as I would hope you expected the same from me as well. I am not pro or anti homosexual at all. I simply love the person as Christ commanded and I let God decide their sins. That is all I ask of others. Love the person and let God deal with their sin.
Yes but divorce was permitted and men just will have to give his wife a bill of divorce for almost anything and it was done, she was out of the house. (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)
Mark 1:1-12 Speaks about this very subject. Moses did not want to give them the option to divorce yet their hearts were harden. Christ spoke of what God has joined let no man break. If so and he/she were to marry another then they would commit adultry.
And really you can not see who is worse!!! The older woman will come to terms with it somehow because she is mature, but the little one will suffer horrible. I tell you the one who raped the little girl will received many more years in prison than the other one, because will also be accused of pedophilia. Even though both stand to go to the lake of fire at the end times. So does not gel? (I really do not know what you mean, but I can guess. English is not my mother tongue, it is Spanish)
In our eyes it does matter. The one that touches the child IS WORSE yet God will judge them the same.

I believe a huge stumbling block for a Protestant and Catholic is that a Protestant believes sin is sin. No if’, an or buts. Catholicism has mortal and venial. To a Protestant such as a Baptist, homosexual sex is the same as a straight unmarried couple having sex. Both are lustful and both are forms of adultry.
 
**

I disagree with you. Jesus says that it’s a sin to even lust.**

Catholic teaching distinguishes attraction from lust. Lust is an activity of the will. Attraction is passive; it is sometimes harmless, and sometimes a temptation.
 
But if we use Leviticus for such laws, that kind of backfires in one’s face. Why? Because one cannot pick which laws in Leviticus one chooses to believe and follow and discard the others.

Example:

Leviticus 19:27 reads “You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.”

Leviticus 11:8, which is discussing pigs, reads “You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.”

Leviticus 11:8, which is discussing pigs, reads “You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.” So much for Thanksgiving Day football! 😦

No tattoos. Leviticus 19:28 reads, “You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.”

1 Timothy 2:9 doesn’t like your gold necklace at all. Or your pearl necklace. Or any clothes you’re wearing that you didn’t get from Forever 21, Old Navy or H&M.
“Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments.”

I can go on and on as I’m sure you know Leviticus since you quoted it. I am not making a fuss but simply want to put out that how can one use laws in the OT to condemn an action and not follow all the others? :eek:

Permitted but with stipulations.

Both are murderers. Two men. One rapes a 37yr old woman and the other rapes a 6yr old girl. Who do you think is worse even though both raped someone. See how that example doesn’t really gel?
From a catholic point of view your argument is invalid as Jesus stroke Down an entire section of Leviticus. The sections you pointed out were stroken down by Jesus. However he never stroke down anything regarding fornication instead he made it more strict than it was in the OT so her citing Leviticus re homosexuality is valid because it still stands. She is not picking and choosing anything she is using the valid sections of it.
 
From a catholic point of view your argument is invalid as Jesus stroke Down an entire section of Leviticus. The sections you pointed out were stroken down by Jesus. However he never stroke down anything regarding fornication instead he made it more strict than it was in the OT so her citing Leviticus re homosexuality is valid because it still stands. She is not picking and choosing anything she is using the valid sections of it.
“From a catholic point of view” is the key phrase there and I can respect that.
 
Catholic teaching distinguishes attraction from lust. Lust is an activity of the will. Attraction is passive; it is sometimes harmless, and sometimes a temptation.
^^ you are right. Mere attraction only falls in the category of temptation and I think that the other commenter is missing that point. Lust implies that you choose willingly to fall into the temptation. Pretty much is accepting the temptation. Having an attraction is not lust because youay very well choose no to the attraction and fight it. With lust you are saying yes to it and following it.
 
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