Does Scripture really "condemn" homosexuality?

[marymary1975]

“From a catholic point of view” is the key phrase there and I can respect that.

Gloria is catholic so you cannot say that she is picking and choosing because she is not. Now if she was a Jew then you can use that argument to her because for jews the NT is not valid and they do follow those passages but given that she is not a Jew bringing the point your making is quite a bad argument.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Gloria is catholic so you cannot say that she is picking and choosing because she is not. Now if she was a Jew then you can use that argument to her because for jews the NT is not valid and they do follow those passages but given that she is not a Jew bringing the point your making is quite a bad argument.

Thank you mary

 

[marymary1975]

A

I believe a huge stumbling block for a Protestant and Catholic is that a Protestant believes sin is sin. No if’, an or buts. Catholicism has mortal and venial. To a Protestant such as a Baptist, homosexual sex is the same as a straight unmarried couple having sex. Both are lustful and both are forms of adultry.

Hmmmm I think you are confused Here. For catholics too sin is sin too. All sin is evil and all sin is repulsive to God so we must avoid all sin. Yes we do have venial and mortal sin but that does not mean there are ifs and buts to sins, they are still sins It is only a reflection of justice because all actions are not all equal in nature and it would be extremely unjust to put everything and everyone under the same umbrella. You can see this perfectly reflected even in laws: For example: do you think that a person who commits a traffic violation should be condemned to life in prison just like a serial killer? Imagine if the justice aistem would decide that any civil or crmimal violation is punished by life in prison? You would end up in prison for the rest of your life only for littering. Do you think that is just and fair?

The fact that different violations have different punishments does not mean there are its and buts or that certain prohibitions are condoned. It is only a reflection of justice and a reflection of the fact that not all actions are equal in nature. Same goes with venial and mortal sin

 

[marymary1975]

And sorry I don’t know why you get the idea that heterosexual fornication is in someway more acceptable than homosexual acts. They are both mortal sins and both are fornication
You seem to think that for us certain fornications are OK but no that is not true.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Hmmmm I think you are confused Here. For catholics too sin is sin too. All sin is evil and all sin is repulsive to God so we must avoid all sin. Yes we do have venial and mortal sin but that does not mean there are ifs and buts to sins, they are still sins It is only a reflection of justice because all actions are not all equal in nature and it would be extremely unjust to put everything and everyone under the same umbrella. You can see this perfectly reflected even in laws: For example: do you think that a person who commits a traffic violation should be condemned to life in prison just like a serial killer? Imagine if the justice aistem would decide that any civil or crmimal violation is punished by life in prison? You would end up in prison for the rest of your life only for littering. Do you think that is just and fair?

The fact that different violations have different punishments does not mean there are its and buts or that certain prohibitions are condoned. It is only a reflection of justice and a reflection of the fact that not all actions are equal in nature. Same goes with venial and mortal sin

Mary I am not confused. I believe you are confused as to what I was trying to say. For a Protestant sin is sin. Murder is the same as lying. God hates all sin the same in their eyes. Now the degree of such may differ from denomination to denomination, but in general there is no line drawn in the sand between mortal and venial. There is no mortal or venial. All sins are the same. I know the teachings on mortal and venial sins. I was Roman Catholic once myself.

And sorry I don’t know why you get the idea that heterosexual fornication is in someway more acceptable than homosexual acts. They are both mortal sins and both are fornication
You seem to think that for us certain fornications are OK but no that is not true.

I get that idea because MANY Catholics on this forum seem to believe so. Fornication is fornication whether with the same or opposite sex. Glad you and I agree.

 

[marymary1975]

Mary I am not confused. I believe you are confused as to what I was trying to say. For a Protestant sin is sin. Murder is the same as lying. God hates all sin the same in their eyes. Now the degree of such may differ from denomination to denomination, but in general there is no line drawn in the sand between mortal and venial. There is no mortal or venial. All sins are the same. I know the teachings on mortal and venial sins. I was Roman Catholic once myself.

I get that idea because MANY Catholics on this forum seem to believe so. Fornication is fornication whether with the same or opposite sex. Glad you and I agree.

Maybe I am not getting your point, but the catholic church does agree that all sin is repulsive for God. We do have a line but is because just like littering and murder, you can’t give the same the same penalty for a lie and murder. Again it would be unjust as it would be giving life in prison for littering, but still is a sin so I am not even sure what is what you mean.

Maybe the reason you see so many people concentrated on homosexuality is because is the heat of the moment. Is what is being pushed onto people right now so it causes a bigger reaction. But homosexuality is fornication just like any other kind of fornication. What happens too is that sexual acts between same sex people is always fornication because two same sex people can’t be married. Sexual acts in marriage are not sinful so between heterosexuals is only sinful outside of marriage. Maybe that is what causes a reaction too but at the end of the day is adultery and homosexual acts are all fornication.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Maybe I am not getting your point, but the catholic church does agree that all sin is repulsive for God. We do have a line but is because just like littering and murder, you can’t give the same the same penalty for a lie and murder. Again it would be unjust as it would be giving life in prison for littering, but still is a sin so I am not even sure what is what you mean.

Shall we move on? lol

Maybe the reason you see so many people concentrated on homosexuality is because is the heat of the moment. Is what is being pushed onto people right now so it causes a bigger reaction. But homosexuality is fornication just like any other kind of fornication. What happens too is that sexual acts between same sex people is always fornication because two same sex people can’t be married. Sexual acts in marriage are not sinful so between heterosexuals is only sinful outside of marriage. Maybe that is what causes a reaction too but at the end of the day is adultery and homosexual acts are all fornication.

Very much a heat of the moment kind of atmosphere around the subject. It has become very political and I hate that. I know many wonderful and faithful homosexuals and they are not the ones we see on the news demanding schools to teach Jane has two moms lol.

Do I believe a couple of the same-sex can be brought together in Holy Matrimony? NO! Being a High Church Episcopalian that borders Anglo-Catholic, my stance is much like your’s in that Holy Matrimony is between a man and woman and basically for the same reasons you do.

Where we part I think is when we get to a state civil union but this forum would be boring if we all agreed lol.

Thanks for being charitable in our conversations Mary. I trust I have done the same!

 

[marymary1975]

Shall we move on? lol

Maybe the reason you see so many people concentrated on homosexuality is because is the heat of the moment. Is what is being pushed onto people right now so it causes a bigger reaction. But homosexuality is fornication just like any other kind of fornication. What happens too is that sexual acts between same sex people is always fornication because two same sex people can’t be married. Sexual acts in marriage are not sinful so between heterosexuals is only sinful outside of marriage. Maybe that is what causes a reaction too but at the end of the day is adultery and homosexual acts are all fornication.

Very much a heat of the moment kind of atmosphere around the subject. It has become very political and I hate that. I know many wonderful and faithful homosexuals and they are not the ones we see on the news demanding schools to teach Jane has two moms lol.

Do I believe a couple of the same-sex can be brought together in Holy Matrimony? NO! Being a High Church Episcopalian that borders Anglo-Catholic, my stance is much like your’s in that Holy Matrimony is between a man and woman and basically for the same reasons you do.

Where we part I think is when we get to a state civil union but this forum would be boring if we all agreed lol.

Thanks for being charitable in our conversations Mary. I trust I have done the same!

Well I don’t agree with civil unions for religious reasons. With legal gay marriage I don’t agree for secular and legal reasons ( though I am in the minority) but from a strict legal point of view I don’t think marriage should be a right and that gayarriahe creates a slippery slope bit unfortunately I may be the only one who thinks marriage should not be a right.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

I am not pro or anti homosexual at all.

If you say that the Episcopalians tolerate homosexuality you are not being true to your Christian teachings:

**As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. **
1 Tim 5:20

I totally respect your stance on such a thing. We are all called to be a witness to what we believe. I would hope you stood firm for your beliefs as I would hope you expected the same from me as well. .

Well here there is a semantic problem: I am called to give witness of Jesus Christ, and you seem to be called to give witness of yourself, what you believe, or what you choose to believe. Since we suppose to have the same root of information, ** the Bible**, and you call yourself a Christian, I can not tolerate that you believe something else of what is written there and make others think that is right, in this case to tolerate homosexuality.

I am not pro or anti homosexual at all. I simply love the person as Christ commanded and I let God decide their sins. That is all I ask of others. Love the person and let God deal with their sin. .

You said that you simply love the person as Christ commanded, very right, is just that we have to see what you understand by love and God himself tells us what he does when he loves someone: “I rebuke and chasten” and then he adds “be zealous therefore, and repent” (Ap 3:19).

**“Now God commands everyone, everywhere TO REPENT, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness” **(Acts 17:30).

And since we know that destruction will come because men did not want to repent of their murders or their sorceries or their immorality or their thefts (cf. Rev 9:21). If we love sinners we ought to help them to repent by rebuking their sin and make them sure to understand that we do not agree with such practices, in this case homosexuality.

So let me repeat this which is valid for those who called themselves Christians and practice homosexuality or approve of it:

**As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. ** 1 Tim 5:20

**
(…) whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.** James 5:20

In the love of Christ and of His teachings,
Gloria

 

[Gloria_de_G]

I believe a huge stumbling block for a Protestant and Catholic is that a Protestant believes sin is sin. No if’, an or buts. Catholicism has mortal and venial. .

“If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal**.” 1 Jn 5:16-17

If Catholicism is teaching that there is a** mortal** sin is because it is the truth and even though we have the same Bible you seem to ** have not** notice this verse. Probably because you said that We are all called to be a witness to what we believe and I understand that to mean what you believe, or what you choose to believe, and not exactly what Jesus Christ and His Apostles had taught us.

To a Protestant such as a Baptist, homosexual sex is the same as a straight unmarried couple having sex. Both are lustful and both are forms of adultery.

An unmarried couple can correct themselves and get married and in this way they stop sinning, but not so with homosexuals, because marriage is not an option (and I do not want to argue about this).

"He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil". 1 Jn 3:8

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? **"Do not be deceived! **The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, **passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals **(…) 1 Cor 6:9

And so that you do not come an argue with me that you have a different translation of this two words here is the Greek and it’s meaning:

**μαλακοὶ **= effeminate or Catamite (a boy kept for homosexual purposes))
ἀρσενοκοῖται = men who have a coitus (sexual intercourse) with men

Hope this helps:

(…) whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:20

In the love of Christ and of His teachings
Gloria

 

[aidanbradypop]

If you say that the Episcopalians tolerate homosexuality you are not being true to your Christian teachings

I would hope that every Church tolerates a sinner. If not then every church would be a lonely place on Sunday. As far as tolerating homosexuals, the Episcopal Church has this to say: “In 1976, the General Convention of the Episcopal Church declared that “homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church”

**As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. **
1 Tim 5:20

So if you had a sister that was married to an alcoholic that was not in recovery, would you invite the both of them to your house for Christmas dinner? Would you rebuke him in front of everyone for being an alcoholic?

Well here there is a semantic problem: I am called to give witness of Jesus Christ, and you seem to be called to give witness of yourself, what you believe, or what you choose to believe.

Thank you for explaining to me how I believe.

Since we suppose to have the same root of information, ** the Bible**,

That we do!

and you call yourself a Christian

,

Humbly yes as I am sure you do as well.

I can not tolerate that you believe something else of what is written there and make others think that is right, in this case to tolerate homosexuality.

I never asked you to “tolerate” anything nor can I manage the thought of others. I can simply state what I believe as you do. As far as what is written in Scripture, I cannot “tolerate” the IC, private confession,…etc

You said that you simply love the person as Christ commanded, very right, is just that we have to see what you understand by love and God himself tells us what he does when he loves someone: “I rebuke and chasten” and then he adds “be zealous therefore, and repent” (Ap 3:19).

Every single homosexual person I know will tell you that I do not give my blessings to their actions. They will, however, tell you that I love them as a sinner, just as I expect them to love me. God loves us unconditionally so why then must we put conditions on our love?

**“Now God commands everyone, everywhere TO REPENT, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness” **(Acts 17:30).

Yes! We all should repent of our sins and seek the mercy of God!

And since we know that destruction will come because men did not want to repent of their murders or their sorceries or their immorality or their thefts (cf. Rev 9:21). If we love sinners we ought to help them to repent by rebuking their sin and make them sure to understand that we do not agree with such practices, in this case homosexuality.

Did I ever say I agreed with homosexuality? If you can find a post where I stated that I agree with it 100% then please post and I will gladly take it back. I simply that that I love them for being a child of God no matter what their faults. I hope people do not hold my sins against me. That would be a very lonely life.

So let me repeat this which is valid for those who called themselves Christians and practice homosexuality or approve of it:

So are you stating that a homosexual cannot be a Christian? I want to be clear on your stance here.

**
(…) whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.** James 5:20

This goes for every sin Gloria…not just homosexuality.

 

[aidanbradypop]

“If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal**.” 1 Jn 5:16-17

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou be able to see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye

If Catholicism is teaching that there is a** mortal** sin is because it is the truth and even though we have the same Bible you seem to ** have not** notice this verse. Probably because you said that We are all called to be a witness to what we believe and I understand that to mean what you believe, or what you choose to believe, and not exactly what Jesus Christ and His Apostles had taught us.

An unmarried couple can correct themselves and get married and in this way they stop sinning, but not so with homosexuals, because marriage is not an option (and I do not want to argue about this).

Sure they can and often many do. I know a wonderful couple. They are both Roman Catholic since birth. They attend Mass every Sunday…etc. They lived together before marriage for about 12 yrs give or take a year. They had sex before marriage and all that. They finally were married by a Justice-of-the-Peace in Hawaii a few years ago. Their “marriage” was never blessed by a priest of Church. So did they right the ship and any different that a gay couple living together?

"He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil". 1 Jn 3:8

Amen!

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? **"Do not be deceived! **The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, **passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals **(…) 1 Cor 6:9

I do not see “passive homosexual” in my Catholic Bible but since you have it there, do you mean homosexuals in general cannot inheirt the Kingdom of God even though they do not act out their desires?

And so that you do not come an argue with me that you have a different translation of this two words here is the Greek and it’s meaning:

I will not argue translations. I will argue that I I do not believe I ever stated being homosexual is perfectly ok with God.

 

[frobert]

The “gay” activists came out with their own translation that omits all the parts of the bible that condemn homosexual behavior. That should tell you something.

Do you have a link to the “gay activist” bible?

 

[Gloria_de_G]

I would hope that every Church tolerates a sinner. If not then every church would be a lonely place on Sunday. As far as tolerating homosexuals, the Episcopal Church has this to say: “In 1976, the General Convention of the Episcopal Church declared that “homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church”

I was very careful in the way I phrase what I said. Always I said that we ought not to **tolerate homosexuality ** but it looks that for you to talk about homosexuality and **homosexuals **is exactly the same and you interchange the words that I have chosen very carefully, to then invent your own arguments and accusations. I am not going to answer you. And I repeat to you that if the Episcopalians do not condemn homosexual practices because the do not separate the person from his actions, then they are not behaving in a Christian way who cares for the sinner’s soul, that at the end he may be save.

And if you have understood the general you would not have to go to particular cases.

So are you stating that a homosexual cannot be a Christian? I want to be clear on your stance here.

I am going to let Jesus Christ answer you this question:

"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you,** ‘I do not know where you come from.’** Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from;** depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!**’ " Luke 13:24-27

If you need some explanation is that: “we ate and drank in your presence” which is what we all do in the Christian Churches, i.e. they are nominal Christians! Why? because they are evil doers, practicing iniquities, immorality. They knew what they had to do and they did not do it, they carried on with their homosexual practices, because this forum is what is about not all the other immoral behaviors …

This goes for every sin Gloria…not just homosexuality.

You do not read properly, what do you think I mean when I said, “**in this case **to tolerate homosexuality??” Again, because this is what we are talking about in this forum.

This forum is mainly concern about “if the Scripture really condemn homosexuality” and the answer is YES, the Scriptures condemn homosexuality as I pointed out in my posts before.** #45**, #51, #52, #54 etc.

In the love of the Truth,
Gloria

 

[aidanbradypop]

I was very careful in the way I phrase what I said. Always I said that we ought not to **tolerate homosexuality ** but it looks that for you to talk about homosexuality and **homosexuals **is exactly the same and you interchange the words that I have chosen very carefully, to then invent your own arguments and accusations. I am not going to answer you. And I repeat to you that if the Episcopalians do not condemn homosexual practices because the do not separate the person from his actions, then they are not behaving in a Christian way who cares for the sinner’s soul, that at the end he may be save.

And if you have understood the general you would not have to go to particular cases.

I am going to let Jesus Christ answer you this question:

"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you,** ‘I do not know where you come from.’** Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from;** depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!**’ " Luke 13:24-27

If you need some explanation is that: “we ate and drank in your presence” which is what we all do in the Christian Churches, i.e. they are nominal Christians! Why? because they are evil doers, practicing iniquities, immorality. They knew what they had to do and they did not do it, they carried on with their homosexual practices, because this forum is what is about not all the other immoral behaviors …

You do not read properly, what do you think I mean when I said, “**in this case **to tolerate homosexuality??” Again, because this is what we are talking about in this forum.

This forum is mainly concern about “if the Scripture really condemn homosexuality” and the answer is YES, the Scriptures condemn homosexuality as I pointed out in my posts before.** #45**, #51, #52, #54 etc.

In the love of the Truth,
Gloria

I will state this again…“homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church"

 

[frobert]

When it comes down to being a good Christian/Catholic does it really matter if scriptures condemns homosexually or not?

Christ said to love God and love your neighbor. If Scripture condemns homosexuality would that make you love God and your neighbor more? If Scripture does not condemn homosexuality would that make you love God and your neighbor less?

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou be able to see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

This is a perfect example to see how you suddenly change subject and answer something else. You were talking about Catholicism having divided sins in mortal and venial and this was the main clash between Protestants and Catholics, because Protestants do not believe in this division. So I gave you the quote on Saint John who states that there are mortal sins and you quote what is above!!! Just accept that you did not know that there is this division of sins in the Bible, you do not have to go changing subject.

I will argue that I do not believe I ever stated being homosexual is perfectly ok with God.

Episcopalians. In 2003, the first openly gay bishop was consecrated; in 2009, General Convention resolved that God’s call is open to all; and in 2012, a provisional rite of blessing for same-gender relationships was authorized, and discrimination against transgender persons in the ordination process was officially prohibited. Post #12

And then also

I have stated many times that I do not believe in same sex marriage as defined in Scripture,

This is what I mean you witness to your own believes and take what it suit your own choices from the Bible.

I do not have a problem with same sex civil unions.

I hope you will forgive me but I think I said all what was needed and now I am retiring from this forum… I wish you the best

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

 

[aidanbradypop]

This is a perfect example to see how you suddenly change subject and answer something else. You were talking about Catholicism having divided sins in mortal and venial and this was the main clash between Protestants and Catholics, because Protestant do not believe in this division. So I gave you the quote on Saint John who states that there are mortal sins and you quote what is above!!! Just accept that you did not know that there is this division of sins in the Bible, you do not have to go changing subject.

Gloria I was once a Roman Catholic. I know about mortal and venial. I guess the point I was trying to make flew by. Sorry about that. But please read that verse again that I posted about the speck.

And then also
this is what I mean you witness to your own believes and take what it suit your own choices from the Bible.

I hope you will forgive me but I think I said all what was needed and now I am retiring from this forum… I wish you the best

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

So I cannot be for equal rights of all and believe in Scripture? . hmmmm

 

[Gloria_de_G]

When it comes down to being a good Christian/Catholic does it really matter if scriptures condemns homosexually or not?

Christ said to love God and love your neighbor. If Scripture condemns homosexuality would that make you love God and your neighbor more? If Scripture does not condemn homosexuality would that make you love God and your neighbor less?

Well the problem is that this forum was about that. Love of neighbor is reflect in our desire that he also will be save at the end, and if you see him sinning you want to kindly remark in his/her behavior so that the person review himself for the love of God. If we do not know what is right or what is wrong how can we help our brother in Christ to correct his life. I do not say that you go correcting the people that do not belong to the Church, to the ones outside God will judge them.

In the love of Christ and of His Word,
Gloria

 

[Gloria_de_G]

I will state this again…“homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church"

Again I tell you: homosexuality needs to be condemn, you may love, as I do, the homosexual people that I know, but I always make sure that they know that I do not approve of such practices and always wish they repent.

As for your quote on taking first the speck out of your eye, let me tell you:

“We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.” 1 Jn 5:18

If you are not yet born of God, better do not go correcting others, because then it will apply to you that quote that you mention and you will be send to correct your sins first. But notice that is said “first”, that means that once you have put yourself straight before God then you can go and correct others, but always with love for the salvation of their souls.

In the love of Christ,
Gloria