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rcwitness
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Is Porneia binding?
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Elizabeth3
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The “therefore” refers to “what God has joined together.” In the beginning, God made one exclusive couple, which rules out polygamy and divorce/remarriage, as his intention for male and female. He sanctioned their union first by saying “Be fruitful and multiply” before they become “one flesh” physically. What He joined, should not be separated.
Later, when people became more numerous, God called specific men as his intermediaries and it was through their decisions and approval, that he chose to work with humanity. So a ceremony/legal process of some sort is needed by the witness of civil or religious authority in order for the “what God has joined together” part to be fulfilled as a lasting, exclusive marriage.
When a man is joined with a prostitute (or a man and woman who are virgins), physically join as “one flesh” without it being God sanctioned (or God joined), then that is not marriage (exclusive/permanent) because only God can declare the union as such. It must be “God-joined” first before the physical union takes place. Otherwise, the “one flesh” union is unlawful because it is man acting without God in joining and separating.
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rcwitness
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So Porneia is not binding at all?
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TheLittleLady
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Many many many Dioceses/parishes have the canons summed up on their websites:
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Elizabeth3
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Not as a marriage to that particular person. Because it wasn’t joined by God, the “one flesh” union does not have the permanent/exclusive character that defines it as marriage. The fornicator has bound himself to sin in which he must repent in order to again be joined to Christ if he is a baptized Christian but he is not bound to the person he fornicated with. This is an act in which by his free will he chooses to cut himself off from Christ in order to commit an act separate from Him because one who is a member of Christ can’t join Christ to that which doesn’t belong to Him or hasn’t been sanctioned by Him.
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rcwitness
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Thanks for addressing what I’m talking about, and what the OP was touching on!
I think I agree to an extent.
Now let’s look at this a little deeper.
I fornicate with a girlfriend and we “break up”. Then I meet a woman and we decide to get married. I never repented for my fornication with my previous girlfriend.
Can I truly consent to a Christian marriage with my fiance? Or am I bound in that sin of fornication until repenting to Christ first? Then I am able to understand and consent to true Christian marriage.
I think I agree to an extent.
Now let’s look at this a little deeper.
I fornicate with a girlfriend and we “break up”. Then I meet a woman and we decide to get married. I never repented for my fornication with my previous girlfriend.
Can I truly consent to a Christian marriage with my fiance? Or am I bound in that sin of fornication until repenting to Christ first? Then I am able to understand and consent to true Christian marriage.
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Catholicwife32
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The Catholic Church considers marriage a natural institution, not a social construction. So, for instance, if you were stranded on an island, away from civil society where there were no laws (either canonically or civilly), marriage would STILL be possible.
The difference between sex that consummates a marriage and fornication is the level of consent. Does matrimonial consent exist or does it not? So, if a couple is just falling into passion and consenting to sex this one time, they are not marrying. If there’s an exchange of money for a one time encounter, that is not marriage either.
Marriage involves a contemplation of the procreative nature of the activity with both individuals recognizing their responsibility to support each other in raising such children that may result. It also isn’t conditional on pregnancy. The couple remains loyal to each other, serving each other in other ways regardless of if a pregnancy occurs or not. Because sex is in the equation, it remains a possibility.
Now, marriage is something that should be entered thoughtfully and deliberately. As such, laws (canon law and civil law) declare all private commitments unlawful unions. So while morally you may have an adequate commitment to each other for sex, the question is “Are you too committed too fast?” and “If you’re not, why haven’t you gotten married?”
The difference between sex that consummates a marriage and fornication is the level of consent. Does matrimonial consent exist or does it not? So, if a couple is just falling into passion and consenting to sex this one time, they are not marrying. If there’s an exchange of money for a one time encounter, that is not marriage either.
Marriage involves a contemplation of the procreative nature of the activity with both individuals recognizing their responsibility to support each other in raising such children that may result. It also isn’t conditional on pregnancy. The couple remains loyal to each other, serving each other in other ways regardless of if a pregnancy occurs or not. Because sex is in the equation, it remains a possibility.
Now, marriage is something that should be entered thoughtfully and deliberately. As such, laws (canon law and civil law) declare all private commitments unlawful unions. So while morally you may have an adequate commitment to each other for sex, the question is “Are you too committed too fast?” and “If you’re not, why haven’t you gotten married?”
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Elizabeth3
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Yes. You can consent to a sacramental marriage in the state of mortal sin. (although it’s not recommended.) The sacrament would be valid if it’s your intent to enter into a sacramental marriage (and you can do this because you are not bound by marriage to the girlfriend you fornicated with) but until you make a confession of your mortal sin, the graces of the sacrament would not be available to you to assist you in fulfilling your vows.
[edited to clarify - the graces are available but you must be open to cooperating with them in order for them to assist you.]
[edited to clarify - the graces are available but you must be open to cooperating with them in order for them to assist you.]
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rcwitness
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That’s a good answer! I’m impressed!
The bolded part is interesting. How have you arrived at this?
As for mortal sin not being an impediment, I agree. The concern was more related to the chains of sin to fornication, which are profoundly connected to understanding a true marriage. It’s difficult to intend what marriage means, while holding to a belief that fornication is ok. In other words, the sin of fornication is so closely related to the vows of marriage, that fornication ought to be absolved before entering into a pure sexual relationship.
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Elizabeth3
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Mortal sin cuts us off from the life of grace in the soul and confession restores it. Grace is made available to us through the sacraments but it requires our cooperation with it and openness to it in order to have it’s intended effect.
It would probably be a good idea to read about grace and sin in the catechism for a fuller and deeper understanding.
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rcwitness
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What you say here seems to contradict what you said earlier. That “You can consent to a sacramental marriage in the state of mortal sin”rcwitness:
Mortal sin cuts us off from the life of grace in the soul and confession restores it. Grace is made available to us through the sacraments but it requires our cooperation with it and openness to it in order to have it’s intended effect.
It would probably be a good idea to read about grace and sin in the catechism for a fuller and deeper understanding.
Is not marriage conferring the Sacrament on one another?
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Elizabeth3
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Which is why I said it would be a good idea to read about grace and sin in the Catechism because there are different kinds of grace (sanctifying, sacramental, actual etc). Mortal sin cuts you off from sanctifying grace but you can still be given other kinds of grace but you would have to be open to them. The sacramental grace of marriage is available to you through the sacrament and can prompt you live out your vows but how effective will it be if you are avoiding confessing a mortal sin and are not in a state of sanctifying grace? Is one able to fully cooperate with sacramental grace if they are refusing to have sanctifying grace restored to them through confession?
Yes. A couple administers the sacrament to one another and the priest acts as a witness of Christ and His Church.
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rcwitness
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"Elizabeth3:
And can one, who is not restored to sanctifying grace confer sacramental grace to their fiance, and also receive it?
That’s my question!
And can one, who is not restored to sanctifying grace confer sacramental grace to their fiance, and also receive it?
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Elizabeth3
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Perhaps not fully but to the degree that they might be open to it. That would be up to the individual person. There is a difference between the grace being available to you through the sacrament and the person cooperating with it. The sacrament makes the grace available if you are consenting to receiving the sacrament. How effective the grace will be in living out the sacrament will depend on your cooperation with it.
It is not the couple who confer grace to one another. Grace is only given by God. The sacrament is the vehicle by which this is done, so-to-speak. Through the sacrament, the grace is made available to them but how effective it will be in helping them live up to their vows will depend on how open they are to it’s prompting and cooperation with it as they live life as a married couple. Not being in the state of sanctifying does not prevent one from administering the sacrament to the other. A priest in the state of mortal sin can still validly consecrate the host.
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rcwitness
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“Might”, or might not? In a Catholic Marriage where one is not open to Sacramental grace, according to tribunals, is their impediment closing the door to sacramental grace?
Yes, administering is the term I meant.
Again, in an invalid sacrament marriage, it’s not merely a matter of one or both spouses not accepting sanctifying grace, but one or both not administering/receiving the sacrament at all!
So how can this happen in a wedding, yet not in ordination of Holy Orders?
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Elizabeth3
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Perhaps this link will answer your question
In a marriage, there can be an investigation into the intent of the spouses at the time they married to see if they both or one of them did not intend sacramental marriage at the time of the ceremony.
In Holy Orders, it is the intent of the Bishop to ordain that determines the validity of the sacrament. Unless the Bishop would come out and say he did not intend to confer Holy Orders on a man, it is assumed that by his words and actions, that that was his intent.
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rcwitness
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Thanks, I’ll look at the link!rcwitness:
Perhaps this link will answer your question
Receiving Sacraments in Mortal Sin - What Happens? - Taylor Marshall
In a marriage, there can be an investigation into the intent of the spouses at the time they married to see if they both or one of them did not intend sacramental marriage at the time of the ceremony.
In Holy Orders, it is the intent of the Bishop to ordain that determines the validity of the sacrament. Unless the Bishop would come out and say he did not intend to confer Holy Orders on a man, it is assumed that by his words and actions, that that was his intent.
So it’s possible for a Bishop to “lack proper consent”?
If, say, the Bishop turns out to have unorthodox beliefs and practices, would a tribunal investigate if he was incapable of administering the Sacrament, just as a marriage is treated?
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Elizabeth3
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He could be laicized and stripped of his title if that was deemed necessary but that doesn’t mean that the sacraments he conferred before that would be invalid.
It’s possible but also impossible to prove unless the Bishop would honestly admit it. Even then, I’m sure there would be an investigation into whether that was the actual case.
This explains it better than I can and saves me typing time.
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Vico
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God confers grace not man. A marriage will not be a sacramental marriage unless both are baptized, otherwise it is called a natural marriage. When there is a state of mortal sin the sacramental grace of marriage will not be received until justified again, even though there is a marriage established.
Catechism:
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rcwitness
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I already acknowledged “administer” was the term I meant.
The Catechism recognizes the "indespensible element of a marriage is the consent. But sex is also binding, even in porneia. The release of porneia is confession unto absolution.
The Catechism recognizes the "indespensible element of a marriage is the consent. But sex is also binding, even in porneia. The release of porneia is confession unto absolution.
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