Does someone have an answer?

[BernadetteM]

Two of my friends who don’t know one another, one belongs to a mega church and the other to an Open Bible church and both have reached similar beliefs, however they contradict what most protestants believe. Also the members of their churches seem to agree with their beliefs.

When my one friend’s father passed away they prayed to him to have God bring two transplants for her youngest brother who would die soon without them. Well within a couple of weeks the needed organs were transplanted. She believes that her father asked God to save her brother. Although the church is against Catholics praying to those saints or others who have died.

My other friend who belongs to the mega church is very anti catholic and doesn’t believe in praying/asking the saints to pray for us and especially any apparitions of the BVM or any saint. However, when her husband died her friend called her to say she saw the husband riding in a chariot at least twice. Than recently her son saw his father sitting on a branch of a tree and spoke to him. Third a week ago in church while watching her cousin the pastor on stage, instead of him she saw her husband and the pastor’s wife told her that she was all aglow and what happened. I really don’t understand how they can contradict their own beliefs and seem to not be aware that what they are seeing or what is happening is a Catholic belief and they are going against their own doctrines.

Of course I am glad that God has chosen to reveal to them the truth of the faith, even if they don’t understand that what has happened is a Catholic belief. But would like to have some protestants explain to me how this could be according to what they are taught. Both are of sound mind and one often casts the Devil out if she feels the need.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Conradine]

Well… would you accept an answer from an unbeliever?

From my personal experience, when you lose a close relative - or more generically, a person which you love - the mind goes into chaos. A person could do or think almost anything and be totally contradictory with his own beliefs in the emotional heat of the moment. I knew complete atheists that prayed to Mary for their loved ones, even if they didn’t really believe that would work and stayed atheist after that.

I guess that the answer is, simply, that we are contradictory and emotionally fragile beings. I wish you and your friends good luck.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Not Protestant here.

Perhaps one friend believes it because it was (in their reality) THEIR loved one in the vision and not BVM.

The same for the other one, they are praying to THEIR father to intervene for them.

They had a pre-existing relationship with that person.

To put it bluntly BVM and the Saints are nobodies to some Protestants and it may be the case here.

 

[schaeffer]

The simplest explanation is that they are human. And humans often hold contradicting beliefs and act in contradictory ways depending on the situation they are in. Different strategies etc. We all do it to a greater or lesser extent, most unconsciously, meaning we don’t think about it and reason through it first.

It is common (as someone mentioned above) for people to “see” or “hear” loved ones shortly after they die. I don’t know if this is a case of the spirits of the deceased actually coming to visit the ones left behind, or if it is a trick of a troubled mind coming to terms with the death.

It is also common for people to have a change of heart and belief following a significant event in their lives, and what they held as truth before may no longer seem true. There are many conversions under these circumstances.

Some people might even claim that it was not the spirit of their loved one but a demon in disguise coming to deceive the people when they are in a grieving state. At least I have heard that explanation from Christians of various sects in the past.

 

[captainrick]

“Both are of sound mind…”
Not really sure about that!

 

[Made]

God is revealing himself to people in mysterious ways. I also knew a protestant lady who saw the virgin Mary when she was close to leaving earth.

 

[Church_Militant]

This one is actually pretty easy. Since they have no authority over them they are not really bound to any doctrines at all and they decide what they believe regardless of what the Bible or anyone else says or believes.

Be careful, such people often go very far afield of what the Bible actually teaches.

 

[ltwin]

Two of my friends who don’t know one another, one belongs to a mega church and the other to an Open Bible church and both have reached similar beliefs, however they contradict what most protestants believe. Also the members of their churches seem to agree with their beliefs.

OK.

When my one friend’s father passed away they prayed to him to have God bring two transplants for her youngest brother who would die soon without them. Well within a couple of weeks the needed organs were transplanted. She believes that her father asked God to save her brother. Although the church is against Catholics praying to those saints or others who have died.

Yep, that’s a contradiction.

My other friend who belongs to the mega church is very anti catholic and doesn’t believe in praying/asking the saints to pray for us and especially any apparitions of the BVM or any saint. However, when her husband died her friend called her to say she saw the husband riding in a chariot at least twice. Than recently her son saw his father sitting on a branch of a tree and spoke to him. Third a week ago in church while watching her cousin the pastor on stage, instead of him she saw her husband and the pastor’s wife told her that she was all aglow and what happened.

OK. From an evangelical perspective, no one denies that people see apparitions. The theological question is are these actually apparitions sent by God to bring comfort and encouragement or a diabolical spirit to deceive us. (Or the always present possibility that it is a fiction made up by the human mind.)

I really don’t understand how they can contradict their own beliefs and seem to not be aware that what they are seeing or what is happening is a Catholic belief and they are going against their own doctrines.

Well, first off, there is no general Protestant belief that denies the possibility of receiving apparitions of the Virgin Mary or Jesus or an angel, etc. What Protestants would say is that any vision or apparition should be tested according to Scripture.

Certainly, the Pentecostal/charismatic schools of Protestantism are full of accounts of seeing visions and apparitions. It’s Scriptural: Acts 2:17.

Of course I am glad that God has chosen to reveal to them the truth of the faith, even if they don’t understand that what has happened is a Catholic belief. But would like to have some protestants explain to me how this could be according to what they are taught. Both are of sound mind and one often casts the Devil out if she feels the need.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Maybe the problem your friend has is not with apparitions of the Virgin Mary and saints as much as its what the saints say or do as part of these visions. Since Catholics who see the Virgin Mary would say that such apparitions confirmed Catholic beliefs, Protestants would tend to to say that they fail the test of Scripture.

Once again, there are many Protestants who have no problem (whether psychologically or theologically) accepting accounts of seeing visions of God, Mary,angels or believers who have died.

The case about the transplant and praying to the father is baffling because the Open Bible Church is a Pentecostal denomination, which does not believe in praying to saints for miracles. We believe that Jesus is the healer and the proper way, from a classical Pentecostal perspective, to pray for the sick is to pray directly to God in the name of Jesus.

 

[BernadetteM]

OK.

Yep, that’s a contradiction.

OK. From an evangelical perspective, no one denies that people see apparitions. The theological question is are these actually apparitions sent by God to bring comfort and encouragement or a diabolical spirit to deceive us. (Or the always present possibility that it is a fiction made up by the human mind.)

Well, first off, there is no general Protestant belief that denies the possibility of receiving apparitions of the Virgin Mary or Jesus or an angel, etc. What Protestants would say is that any vision or apparition should be tested according to Scripture.

Certainly, the Pentecostal/charismatic schools of Protestantism are full of accounts of seeing visions and apparitions. It’s Scriptural: Acts 2:17.

Maybe the problem your friend has is not with apparitions of the Virgin Mary and saints as much as its what the saints say or do as part of these visions. Since Catholics who see the Virgin Mary would say that such apparitions confirmed Catholic beliefs, Protestants would tend to to say that they fail the test of Scripture.

Once again, there are many Protestants who have no problem (whether psychologically or theologically) accepting accounts of seeing visions of God, Mary,angels or believers who have died.

The case about the transplant and praying to the father is baffling because the Open Bible Church is a Pentecostal denomination, which does not believe in praying to saints for miracles. We believe that Jesus is the healer and the proper way, from a classical Pentecostal perspective, to pray for the sick is to pray directly to God in the name of Jesus.

Her family has always been active in the Open Bible church, in fact, I attended it with her when we were growing up and don’t ever recall anyone speaking in tongues.

As you will notice I didn’t include all protestants and named the denomination.

As far as the BVM appearing, as far as I have read she has never said anything that goes against the biblical teachings. When she does appear it is usual for her to ask that we all come to her Son Jesus and repent of our sins. Also Catholic Church is different than those denominations that seem to believe what my friends stated happened, the difference is that the Catholic Church investigates every apparition for years and ask God for confirmation before they announce it as true. Also no Catholic must accept any personal revelation of apparitions or visions. I have seen on TV televangelists say they have healed people, however, I have never seen any documentation from a doctor or the medical field to verify these “healings”.

Whether a healing or vision the Catholic Church takes time and requires proof and I do not see this in other denominations who claim this takes place. Some at almost every service they have, i.e. televangelists.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[ltwin]

Her family has always been active in the Open Bible church, in fact, I attended it with her when we were growing up and don’t ever recall anyone speaking in tongues.

OK. The frequency of tongue-speaking really doesn’t matter when determining if a denomination is Pentecostal. The Open Bible Church is by its own definition Pentecostal.

Which is why I agree with you. It makes no sense for them to say that Catholics are wrong about praying to saints when they do the same thing.

As you will notice I didn’t include all protestants and named the denomination.

Well, you said that “most Protestants” don’t believe in the possibility of seeing visions of Mary or other saints.I don’t think that is true. It isn’t even intellectually dishonest. No Pentecostal denomination has rejected the possibility of seeing visions of God, Mary, angels, or dead believers. Certainly non-denominational churches have no general authority to rule on this. So, there is nothing inconsistent in your non-denom friend and her church believing in what they’ve seen while not accepting the visions that Catholics have seen.

As far as the BVM appearing, as far as I have read she has never said anything that goes against the biblical teachings. When she does appear it is usual for her to ask that we all come to her Son Jesus and repent of our sins.

Well, that is your opinion as a Catholic. Protestants can come to their own conclusion.

Also Catholic Church is different than those denominations that seem to believe what my friends stated happened, the difference is that the Catholic Church investigates every apparition for years and ask God for confirmation before they announce it as true.

OK. Protestant churches don’t.

Also no Catholic must accept any personal revelation of apparitions or visions.

Neither do Protestants, and most exercise this right when they don’t give consideration to Catholic visions.

I have seen on TV televangelists say they have healed people, however, I have never seen any documentation from a doctor or the medical field to verify these “healings”.

Whether a healing or vision the Catholic Church takes time and requires proof and I do not see this in other denominations who claim this takes place. Some at almost every service they have, i.e. televangelists.

God Bless

Bernadette

OK. That still doesn’t make Protestants inconsistent. It would only be inconsistent if a Protestant said no one alive should see visions of supernatural beings and then proceeded to affirm belief in seeing their own visions of supernatural beings.

 

[Riser]

For each Catholic to state what a Protestant believes is about as valid as “a Protestant” stating what a Catholic believes.

Perhaps the real divide exists in that many Protestants believe that their personal relationship with God is the main desire of their lives. They look to Him for confirmation for what they believe. Many of them are indeed spiritual and follow the Christ through the Holy Spirit. They usually (and that is a very timid “usually”) read, study, pray, and listen for God’s voice in their lives. Other times, they look to the teachings of man - some of whom are on TV.

The truth does exist - and it exists regardless of the name written on the walls of the building in which we gather. Not everyone within those walls (Catholic and Protestant) follows Christ. Many follow the Pastor, the bylaws, the teachings of their favorite charismatic leader, etc. The human side of us wants rules in order to have a yardstick to measure our holiness.

God does not need one. He knows our hearts.

1Jn 2: I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. If you know that he is righteous,** you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. **
(English Standard Version)