Does Such a Parish Really Exist?

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Dear Friends,
Do any of you know of a Byzantine parish in (or near) Virginia that does not support the last few popes, and believes that “Outside the Church there is no Salvation.”?
Code: 
   Is there even such a parish in the U.S.?  I asked a friend of mine this during a conversation once out of interest.  (She recieved all of the sacraments in the Byzantine Rite besides Baptism...)...She did not know though...

    Thanks...May God bless you always!
Yours in Christ through Mary,
AMDGJMJ2
 
AMDGJMJ2 said:
A.C.J. ICXC A.M.D.G. MPOV A.C.M.
  • ------- J.M.J. --------- +
Dear Friends,
Do any of you know of a Byzantine parish in (or near) Virginia that does not support the last few popes, and believes that “Outside the Church there is no Salvation.”?

Is there even such a parish in the U.S.? I asked a friend of mine this during a conversation once out of interest. (She recieved all of the sacraments in the Byzantine Rite besides Baptism…)…She did not know though…

Thanks…May God bless you always!

Yours in Christ through Mary,
AMDGJMJ2
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All the Byzantine bishops and churches support the pope. There are no sedevacantist or SSPX Byzantine churches.
 
AMDGJMJ2 said:
Dear Friends,
Do any of you know of a Byzantine parish in (or near) Virginia that does not support the last few popes, and believes that “Outside the Church there is no Salvation.”?
Code: 
   Is there even such a parish in the U.S.?  I asked a friend of mine this during a conversation once out of interest.  (She recieved all of the sacraments in the Byzantine Rite besides Baptism...)...She did not know though...

    Thanks...May God bless you always!
Yours in Christ through Mary,
AMDGJMJ2
Click to expand...
If you look closely enough you can find some odd groups out there. But I know of no legitimate established parish of ex-Greek Catholics who identify as Catholic but don’t support the popes…

Are you looking for that sort of parish?
 
AMDGJMJ2 said:
Do any of you know of a Byzantine parish in (or near) Virginia that does not support the last few popes, and believes that “Outside the Church there is no Salvation.”?

Is there even such a parish in the U.S.?
Click to expand...
AMDGJMJ2,

Certainly there are such, but not any that are parishes of the canonical jurisdictions in communion with Rome. There are myriad bodies which style themselves as “independent” Catholic and/or Orthodox and serve according to the Byzantine or Constantinoplian Rite. Some are vagante in the most pejorative sense of the term - others are well-intended, sincere, but not mainstream - in communion with neither Rome nor any canonical Orthodox Church - Eastern or Oriental.

As a long-time serious student of both vagante and the independent movement, I will say that the entity you describe - essentially Byzantine-oriented sedevacantists - are not a common phenomenon in either genre. The Transalpine Redemptorists and the SSPX-affiliated body in Ukraine, referenced above by someone, are not sedes and the majority of vagante and independent movement ecclesia are, likewise, not sede-oriented.

If you can offer a bit more info as to the group you have heard of (?) or of which you are aware, I’ll be happy to tell you what I know of them - but, right now, it’s not ringing any bells for me.

Many years,

Neil
 
The only traditionalist/sedevacantist I can think of in an eastern church is Bishop Yuri Yurchik, a Ukrainian Orthodox who converted a few years ago.
 
jj2011 said:
The only traditionalist/sedevacantist I can think of in an eastern church is Bishop Yuri Yurchik, a Ukrainian Orthodox who converted a few years ago.
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jj,

In what was a truly bizarre episode, Bishop Yurchik subsequently recanted his decision to seek union with CMRI under Bishop Mark Pivarunas.

Many years,

Neil
 
jj2011 said:
Do you know what happened to him?
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As I recollect, he up and returned to Ukraine - within days of the “reception” - couldn’t have had time to unpack. I’m certain that he was not restored to his hierarchical post on return. If I had to guess, he’s in a monastery somewhere doing penance and/or receiving therapy. That was a truly bizarre episode.

Many years,

Neil
 
Hmm, by Byzantine do you mean Ruthenian?
Isn’t there some Byzantine Catholic Church online that isn’t connected with the Real Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church of the USA, under Rome?
 
mgy100 said:
Hmm, by Byzantine do you mean Ruthenian?
Isn’t there some Byzantine Catholic Church online that isn’t connected with the Real Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church of the USA, under Rome?
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I am not sure if they are more than an internet webpage, to be honest, but there is a group that call (or 10) that refer to themselves as any number of "Byzantine Catholic Orthodox Church of the…"

They rather neatly fall into or under what Neil wrote:
Certainly there are such, but not any that are parishes of the canonical jurisdictions in communion with Rome. There are myriad bodies which style themselves as “independent” Catholic and/or Orthodox and serve according to the Byzantine or Constantinoplian Rite. Some are vagante in the most pejorative sense of the term - others are well-intended, sincere, but not mainstream - in communion with neither Rome nor any canonical Orthodox Church - Eastern or Oriental.
Click to expand...
 
mgy100 said:
Hmm, by Byzantine do you mean Ruthenian?
Isn’t there some Byzantine Catholic Church online that isn’t connected with the Real Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church of the USA, under Rome?
Click to expand...
ASimpleSinner said:
I am not sure if they are more than an internet webpage, to be honest, but there is a group that call (or 10) that refer to themselves as any number of "Byzantine Catholic Orthodox Church of the…"

They rather neatly fall into or under what Neil wrote:
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That would be Mar Markus Miller’s The Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc. (Independent Jurisdiction) - whose website is so replete with the phrasing “WE ARE NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC” that I’ve known folks to presume that to be part of its formal, legal name 😃 .

They don’t have any church in the VA area presently and I don’t recollect that they ever did previously; additionally, they wouldn’t fit the bill in terms of a sedevacantist outlook. Whatever else one might think of Mar Markus, he is about as ecumenical as they come and I can’t imagine him taking the view “extra ecclesia …”

Many years,

Neil
 
That would be Mar Markus Miller’s The Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc. (Independent Jurisdiction) - whose website is so replete with the phrasing “WE ARE NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC” that I’ve known folks to presume that to be part of its formal, legal name 😃 .
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I’m tempted to call them and ask if they’re Roman Catholics 😉

J/K 😃

God bless,

Rony
 
Irish_Melkite said:
That would be Mar Markus Miller’s The Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc. (Independent Jurisdiction) - whose website is so replete with the phrasing “WE ARE NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC” that I’ve known folks to presume that to be part of its formal, legal name 😃 .

They don’t have any church in the VA area presently and I don’t recollect that they ever did previously; additionally, they wouldn’t fit the bill in terms of a sedevacantist outlook. Whatever else one might think of Mar Markus, he is about as ecumenical as they come and I can’t imagine him taking the view “extra ecclesia …”

Many years,

Neil
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Neil your familiarity with these various and sundry groups never ceases to amaze me. Between you and Dr. William Tighe, I am pretty sure if and when I ever have a question about any such similar small group, I can get an answer from one or both in rather short order.

Just curious, how did you develop an interest in this sort of stuff?
 
Four guys playing church in their garage! Neil, you are trully the master of following the “Four guys playing chuch in a tool shed” groups!
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Just curious, how did you develop an interest in this sort of stuff?
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I grew up in Boston just after the Feeneyites came to be, in a neighborhood that happened to host one the last parishes of Marcus Garvey’s African Orthodox Church, and close enough to a
Liberal Catholic Church parish that we passed it on the way to Fenway Park.

While none of these curiousities were of the same genre as Mar Markus’ ecclesia, all were “different” enough to raise my curiousity about “other Catholics” - easily extended to encompass “other Orthodox”, since I also had the uncommon good fortune to have an Orthodox classmate in my Latin Catholic grammar school. For a funny story of how he and I explored the “other Orthodoxy” of the AOC, see here.
mgy100 said:
Four guys playing church in their garage! Neil, you are trully the master of following the “Four guys playing chuch in a tool shed” groups!
Click to expand...
Matt,

Actually, I think a garage is much more conducive to being the site of one’s cathedra than a tool shed 👍 , although Bishop Karl Pruter’s Cathedral of the Prince of Peace, closer in size to the latter than the former, has achieved its own measure of notoriety despite its size.

I should add that, although that remark was made tongue in cheek, I have a great deal of personal respect for Bishop Karl and have had for many years. He is a prime example of the fact that there are those among the vagante and the “independent” movement who are truly well-intended persons of real spirituality and who have brought persons to Christ, despite their own religious unconventionality or eccentrism, as we of the “mainstream” Churches see it.

Btw, it should be noted that Mar Markus’ ecclesia, unlike many in the genre, has true staying power. It traces back, in its current configuration to the mid-1960s. In the independent movement, that is indeed a remarkable feat - and I mean that seriously.

Also, with episcopal lines that include Geraldus Gul, Arnold Harris Mathew, Prince DeLandis-Burgos, Carmel Henry Carfora, Joseph Klimowicz, and Peter Zurawetsky - as well as Walter Propheta, Mar Markus likely has episcopal orders that satisfy the Augustinian theory of apostolic succession.

Many years,

Neil
 
Irish_Melkite said:
I grew up in Boston just after the Feeneyites came to be, in a neighborhood that happened to host one the last parishes of Marcus Garvey’s African Orthodox Church, and close enough to a
Liberal Catholic Church parish that we passed it on the way to Fenway Park.

While none of these curiousities were of the same genre as Mar Markus’ ecclesia, all were “different” enough to raise my curiousity about “other Catholics” - easily extended to encompass “other Orthodox”, since I also had the uncommon good fortune to have an Orthodox classmate in my Latin Catholic grammar school. For a funny story of how he and I explored the “other Orthodoxy” of the AOC, see here.

Matt,

Actually, I think a garage is much more conducive to being the site of one’s cathedra than a tool shed 👍 , although Bishop Karl Pruter’s Cathedral of the Prince of Peace, closer in size to the latter than the former, has achieved its own measure of notoriety despite its size.

I should add that, although that remark was made tongue in cheek, I have a great deal of personal respect for Bishop Karl and have had for many years. He is a prime example of the fact that there are those among the vagante and the “independent” movement who are truly well-intended persons of real spirituality and who have brought persons to Christ, despite their own religious unconventionality or eccentrism, as we of the “mainstream” Churches see it.

Btw, it should be noted that Mar Markus’ ecclesia, unlike many in the genre, has true staying power. It traces back, in its current configuration to the mid-1960s. In the independent movement, that is indeed a remarkable feat - and I mean that seriously.

Also, with episcopal lines that include Geraldus Gul, Arnold Harris Mathew, Prince DeLandis-Burgos, Carmel Henry Carfora, Joseph Klimowicz, and Peter Zurawetsky - as well as Walter Propheta, Mar Markus likely has episcopal orders that satisfy the Augustinian theory of apostolic succession.

Many years,

Neil
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That was quite a discussion-- from Aneed to the Thuc line!

I hate to throw a wet blanket over the “Cyprianic” theory, but when the Armenians united with the Byzantines in the 7th century, I know of no evidence that they were reordained. Schismatic Donatist bishops were also accepted back in the fourth and fifth centuries without reordination, and I don’t need to point out all the non-reordained bishops ordained by heretics during the Arian crisis. Up with St. Cyprian, down with “Cyprianic” theories.
 
jj2011 said:
That was quite a discussion-- from Aneed to the Thuc line!

I hate to throw a wet blanket over the “Cyprianic” theory, but when the Armenians united with the Byzantines in the 7th century, I know of no evidence that they were reordained. Schismatic Donatist bishops were also accepted back in the fourth and fifth centuries without reordination, and I don’t need to point out all the non-reordained bishops ordained by heretics during the Arian crisis. Up with St. Cyprian, down with “Cyprianic” theories.
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Actually JJ,

PM me, I am looking for some references on the same matters… Or leave them here…
 
jj2011 said:
That was quite a discussion-- from Aneed to the Thuc line!

I hate to throw a wet blanket over the “Cyprianic” theory, but when the Armenians united with the Byzantines in the 7th century, I know of no evidence that they were reordained. Schismatic Donatist bishops were also accepted back in the fourth and fifth centuries without reordination, and I don’t need to point out all the non-reordained bishops ordained by heretics during the Arian crisis. Up with St. Cyprian, down with “Cyprianic” theories.
Click to expand...
jj,

Without a question, oekonomia has been to the Orthodox what Augustinian theory has been to the Catholics. The major difference is that the Orthodox don’t generally make the decision to invoke oekonomia until union is achieved - while the Catholics acknowledge the possibilities of the Augustinian theory while the separation is still in place.

That aspect of the Orthodox view offers the prospect to decline the licitly/validity of orders - and invoke the Cyprianic theory - at any time, if the circumstances seem to suggest it as the best course.

Many years,

Neil
 
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