Does Suffering in Hell gain merit?

  • Thread starter Thread starter OneWorthyLamb
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
O

OneWorthyLamb

Guest
So I understand hell as a place God allows us to go, if we don’t want to participate in His goodness. However, I also understand that suffering in this world can gain merit for our souls and others. If there is suffering in hell, would that suffering gain merit for that soul–or maybe merit for another soul? I suppose if the only suffering is the longing for God (whom they’ve rejected), then their suffering would be that, although they’ll never find it.
 
OneWorthyLamb said:
If there is suffering in hell, would that suffering gain merit for that soul–or maybe merit for another soul? I suppose if the only suffering is the longing for God (whom they’ve rejected), then their suffering would be that, although they’ll never find it.
Click to expand...
No, it didn’t. The suffering isn’t due to longing for God, it’s due to being both as far away from Him as possible and being left with their sins. It is an entirely selfish suffering, one where they wish it on others even more than themselves. The only thing that would be more painful to a soul in Hell would be being in Heaven with God.
 
OneWorthyLamb said:
If there is suffering in hell, would that suffering gain merit for that soul–or maybe merit for another soul?
Click to expand...
No.
There is no productive benefit to Hell. Your suffering there cannot be applied to help yourself, the world or anybody else. You have cut yourself off from God. Game over. The end. Useless suffering forever.
 
Once a person makes it into Hell then there is no merit to their suffering because Hell is the final place of torment for those who did not do as God willed. Also, they’re separated from God for all eternity. Suffering in this world is different because we can choose to suffer in the name of Christ. Suffering in Hell is just a punishment for those that abandoned God, so they do not get to suffer in the name of Christ because they abandoned Him.
 
OneWorthyLamb said:
So I understand hell as a place God allows us to go, if we don’t want to participate in His goodness. However, I also understand that suffering in this world can gain merit for our souls and others. If there is suffering in hell, would that suffering gain merit for that soul–or maybe merit for another soul? I suppose if the only suffering is the longing for God (whom they’ve rejected), then their suffering would be that, although they’ll never find it.
Click to expand...
Council of Florence Session 6 — July 6,1439
The souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
OneWorthyLamb said:
So I understand hell as a place God allows us to go, if we don’t want to participate in His goodness. However, I also understand that suffering in this world can gain merit for our souls and others. If there is suffering in hell, would that suffering gain merit for that soul–or maybe merit for another soul? I suppose if the only suffering is the longing for God (whom they’ve rejected), then their suffering would be that, although they’ll never find it.
Click to expand...
No.

In the wayfaring (living) state, our sufferings and penances gain us merit only when we are in the state of grace. Outside of the state of sanctifying grace, our sufferings gain us nothing.

Since those in hell are outside of sanctifying grace, their sufferings are worthless.
 
Suffering is morally neutral but becomes meritorious when used to accomplish the will of God. Since the damned - by definition - are opposed to the will of God, their suffering accomplishes nothing, which is of course the ultimate tragedy.

Nonetheless, their suffering is less than what it theoretically could be. Hell is separate from Heaven in order to decrease the suffering of the damned, because being in the direct presence of God in an unpurified state would be far worse. St Faustina correctly writes in her journal that even in hell the mercy of God is apparent.
 
Last edited:
@1Lord1Faith

It is an Ecumenical Catholic Council of Bishops.

People require the divine intervention of God in order to be saved. Human nature cannot save itself. We obligatorily continue to believe this today and always will. It does not mean that unbaptized people go to hell.

The Councils need to be read from the present day back to the New Testament.
 
Last edited:
“It does not mean that unbaptized people go to hell.”

It looks to me like that is exactly what it says. What we can’t judge is whether a person is baptized or not.
 
People baptized by desire can enter the Beatific Vision. This includes infants or the unborn.
 
Last edited:
But it nonetheless is not a water baptism, which is the valid matter for a sacramental baptism.

God directly intervenes to impart grace on the soul. A creature itself in its natural state can’t do this through its own will or power. The creature cooperates with the grace of God but requires the grace of God.
 
Last edited:
There are three witnesses. Water, Spirit and Blood. All equally valid. Is it Catholic teaching that only water is valid?
 
Yes. Blood or desire is not valid matter for a sacramental baptism. Desire isn’t any kind of matter at all. Water is the valid matter needed to perform a baptism.

Baptism by desire and baptism by blood are not sacramental baptisms. They are expressions to convey a theological truth, which is that God works to save each soul regardless of circumstances.
 
Last edited:
TK421 said:
But it nonetheless is not a water baptism, which is the valid matter for a sacramental baptism.
Click to expand...
“Baptism of blood” is accepted as baptism by the Catholic Church. There is no need for water baptism and also it does not mean that blood is poured on a person’s head instead of water. It means you were martyred for the sake of the faith.

CCC 1258:
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Correct. This brings about saving power.

But it is not one of the seven sacraments. A baptism uses water for valid matter.
 
You’re splitting hairs and confusing people. Obviously in a case of “baptism of desire” or “baptism of blood”, the person is way beyond receiving earthly sacraments, because they are dead. They don’t need the sacrament. God takes care of it.
 
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself said:
You’re splitting hairs and confusing people. Obviously in a case of “baptism of desire” or “baptism of blood”, the person is way beyond receiving earthly sacraments, because they are dead.
Click to expand...
I was just about to use those exact words. Yes, I am splitting hairs, but I feel it is important to make a distinction between the ordinary means of grace and the extraordinary means of grace. Sacramental theology uses very specific language and I don’t want people walking away thinking that baptism by desire is an actual sacramental baptism.
 
Last edited:
Not a theologian and don’t play one on TV, but we’ve derailed the thread. Perhaps, it should be closed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top