Does the average Muslim acknowledge that Christians are monthiestic?

[FaithofAbraham]

I think I understand what you are saying. But, using your analogy, your posts here are not you. They are rather from you.

Otherwise it sounds strange. So if I cough, the vapour is me as well? No, instead the cough came from me. There is a difference.

Yeah, I’m saying they are all a part of me, from me, etc. not another person.

 

[MH84]

I think that is quite easy.

I agree, many have had different interpretations. The bible is hard to interpret correctly.

OTBible belongs to Jews, if you ask them please, they would provide you a very good explanation.

Not necessarily

As you know this concept was bargained/imported at Rome by Paul from the hellenistic pagans they say. Jesus, Mary and the Apostles were no doubt Monotheistics Jews, this is very much mentioned in Quran.

Sorry, thats wrong.

As I understand Paul was not a Monotheist.

Say what?!

 

[BlaineTog]

When you have something called three persons, to Muslims that’s just a way of saying there are three gods in a pantheon called the Trinity.

Sure, and if I tried to explain calculus to a four year old, they would probably tell me I was being silly, but that hardly disproves calculus. Not to compare Muslims to four year olds, but just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.

*If Christians took the precedent of Moses and used that to say:

Father God is God, His voice is the Holy Spirit, and His Word are His commands and messages or the thing that His voice says. Only one God, that His voice and words are just Him, like your voice and words are just you, only one person not three persons.

Then say that God can speak through a human like Jesus so that Jesus would be speaking as God Himself, God’s Word and voice in flesh, so that Jesus should be obeyed and respected like God but not worshiped as God because God is still God, and Jesus is still a man, not God.

…then it may be more acceptable to Muslims.*

And it is also wrong. Jesus is God, just as he is man. They are thee persons in one God (though calling it “shared nature of God” is a little ambiguous, as I’m sure Zeus and Aphrodite both shared a godly nature as well in the myths. The image for the trinity, on the other hand, is of a triangle).

 

[ralphinal]

Pantheon: a collection of gods

Polytheism: worshiping multiple gods

Monotheism: worshiping only one God

Trinity: One and only One God made up of three Devine Persons. There are not multiple Gods, but one God. Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God. One God. This cannot be understood on earth. Just because something cannot be understood does not make it wrong. I have not understood a majority of the women that I have dated in my life, that does not make them imaginary or wrong. It makes me a male

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Sure, and if I tried to explain calculus to a four year old, they would probably tell me I was being silly, but that hardly disproves calculus. Not to compare Muslims to four year olds, but just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.

And it is also wrong. Jesus is God, just as he is man. They are thee persons in one God (though calling it “shared nature of God” is a little ambiguous, as I’m sure Zeus and Aphrodite both shared a godly nature as well in the myths. The image for the trinity, on the other hand, is of a triangle).

I understand the concept fine. But there’s nothing in the OT or NT that suggests God ever prayed to Himself, or asked Himself for help to save His own life. As Jesus did with God. It basically says there is only one God but He has a split personality and talks to Himself as another person.

 

[inJESUS]

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful

agree unless the Quran understands the title in a physical way, which becomes its author’s problem.

who is Allah? if he is the Father in Christian terminology, then surely we refute it as well that the Father is Jesus.

If Allah is God in Christian terminology, then we refute it as well because God is not Jesus. God is Father, Jesus (Word), Holy Spirit.

In both cases, the Quran is refuting a strawman because it is not adressing the correct doctrine.

Surely, whoso associates partners with Allah, him has Allah forbidden Heaven, and the Fire will be his resort. And the wrongdoers shall have no helpers.** **

the divinity of Jesus has nothing to do with the partner idea…it’s a too basic and erroneous refutation of a human being, not an all-knowing God. The Word of God is not partner to God, it is not another God.

God is not the author of misunderstood doctrines, a not very knowlegeable human is.

[5:74] They surely disbelieve who say, ‘Allah is the third of three;’ there is no god but the One God.

again, if Allah means the Father, then we do believe the Father is One God and hence the argument “there is no god but the One God” becomes meaningless. Besides, the correct teaching is that the Father is the first, from Whom proceed the Word and Spirit. To put the Father in “any number within the 3 as if it does not matter theologically” reflects a huge distortion of the doctrine and reflects a careless representation of a human.

If however, Allah means God, then we do not believe that God is third of 3 gods.

In both cases, a human faulty reasoning and a lack of theological knowleges are the sources of such arguments and refutations.

[5:76] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman.

They both used to eat food. they both ate food if this does not smell of human reasoning to its roots,well… Will an all-knowing deity refute the divinity of someone by saying he used to eat food? what kind of deep argument is this from an all-knowing deity who must know that Christians already know this ansd that Christians believe Jesus is a man as well? or does Allah think that Christians are unaware of it and by saying that Jesus used to eat food, then surely we’ll stop believing in His divinity? and what does Mary have to do with anything is beyond me.

[5:77] Say, 'Will you worship beside Allah that which has no power to do you harm or good? And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

Trinity is worshipping the One God (Father), the All-knowing (Wisdom/Logos), the All-Powerful (Holy Spirit).

To say that God does not know this is beyong imagination and to even say that God calls His Wisdom and Holy Spirit as partners to him with no power to do harm or good? dunno but i’d say God knows better that attributing to Him faulty teachings.

So, there is no question of any leader saying it, it is all clear from Quran/Islam/Muhammad. Quran leaves no doubt and is reasonable in this connection.

one thing is clear in the Quran : the author did not know what he was talking about, aka Muhammad…am sorry, but we all must know by now that an all-knowing God can do much better than misrepretenting teachings and attacking strawmen.

[/QUOTE]

 

[inJESUS]

Yeah, I’m saying they are all a part of me, from me, etc. not another person.

you are actually stressing on the word “person” which is not an accurate word but maybe the best found to interpret the following :

the Word and Spirit of God are not impersonal “powers”. The Word of God creates, the Spirit of God gives life…(these are examples) and you will find them abundantly in OT and NT. So the word “person” is used to teach that the Word and Spirit are not impersonal powers, but are rather the essence of God that do exactly whatever the Father does.

 

[hamba2han]

Always remember folks that God is NOT the author of confusion.

And so, if you find that you have to explain the fundamentals of your faith, not to Muslims but to your own children and other members of your family, again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again… and they still are asking you the same questions… then this very likely means that something is not quite right about your beliefs.

 

[inJESUS]

Hi

I think that is quite easy. OTBible belongs to Jews, if you ask them please, they would provide you a very good explanation.

 

[inJESUS]

Always remember folks that God is NOT the author of confusion.

And so, if you find that you have to explain the fundamentals of your faith, not to Muslims but to your own children and other members of your family, again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again… then this very likely means that something is not quite right about your beliefs.

actually we have to repeat again and again and again in order to correct the misrepresentations of the author of the Quran.

And according to your logic, if your child asks you : “what is Alah made of” , and you find no answer except “none like Him” yet your child wants more,or you find yourself repeatning again and again that “none like Him” is sufficiant, then your child will believe something is not quite right about your belief…

 

[Booklover]

Always remember folks that God is NOT the author of confusion.

And so, if you find that you have to explain the fundamentals of your faith, not to Muslims but to your own children and other members of your family, again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again… and they still are asking you the same questions… then this very likely means that something is not quite right about your beliefs.

What makes you think that the members of our families do not accept them, just because you do not?

How many times have I posted evil things that Muhammad did or had committed in the name of Allah and you continue to ignore them, which means you can’t see the difference between good and evil and could care less!

Vickie

 

[BlaineTog]

I understand the concept fine. But there’s nothing in the OT or NT that suggests God ever prayed to Himself, or asked Himself for help to save His own life. As Jesus did with God. It basically says there is only one God but He has a split personality and talks to Himself as another person.

Or that’s just how things work on earth. If you want to talk to God, you pray.

Always remember folks that God is NOT the author of confusion.

No, but he is the author of many confusing things. Like organic chemistry, particle and theoretical physics, angels, the possibility of pain, and love.

 

[hamba2han]

What makes you think that the members of our families do not accept them, just because you do not?

I read Christian message boards such as this.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Or that’s just how things work on earth. If you want to talk to God, you pray.

No, but he is the author of many confusing things. Like organic chemistry, particle and theoretical physics, angels, the possibility of pain, and love.

If Jesus is God then it means Jesus prayed to himself.

Nothing in the Bible is confusing to me because I refuse to accept it in a way that is confusing, but in a way that all fits together and makes sense. If that was not possible I would be among the Muslims who say the Bible is corrupt and throw it in the trash. Same with the Quran, it would go in the trash too if I accepted it the way most Muslims have had it fed to them.

 

[inJESUS]

If Jesus is God then it means Jesus prayed to himself.

oh come on, you know better than this. You cannot always talk about Jesus to Christians as if He were only God. By this token, you’d say Jesus ate and slept so He is not God. Jesus, as a human, talked to His Father. When yu read in the OT about the Wisdom of God talking about God, does it mean the Wisdom of God is talking to Herself or has another God?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

oh come on, you know better than this. You cannot always talk about Jesus to Christians as if He were only God. By this token, you’d say Jesus ate and slept so He is not God. Jesus, as a human, talked to His Father. When yu read in the OT about the Wisdom of God talking about God, does it mean the Wisdom of God is talking to Herself or has another God?

 

[BlaineTog]

If Jesus is God then it means Jesus prayed to himself.

In a sense. In a fuller sense, Jesus (person 2) prayed to the Father (person 1) through the Holy Spirit (person 3). Nothing contradictory there.

Jesus, as fully human, had emotions. Why should he not have recourse through prayer to help soothe his?

I’m consistently amazed that so many people constantly assume that all other religions are self-contradictory in some way. I don’t think Islam is self-contradictory, though I don’t fully understand it. Nor is Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Wicca, or even Objectivism (which isn’t really a religion, but it’s a consistent system).

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;3179094:

As opposed to a prophet being God Himself, speaking His own words, and praying to himself.

you are repeating the same argument.

1-a)Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is not talking to Himself but to the Father.

b)The Word of God is God in essence, but is not God in position because it proceeds from Him.

2- the Word took a human flesh, born under the Law as a human to fulfill a mission, and at the same time is the Lord of the Law because the Law was created by the Word of God.

whn you read in Isaiah God saying :“So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.”

God is personnifying His Word and saying His Word will do as please Him. This neither means the Word is a different God, nor does it mean that it ceazed to be God because it does what the Father commands it to do. It does the Will of God, yet it is God.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It does the Will of God, yet it is God.

How can Jesus not seek his own will but the will of God if Jesus is also God and has God’s will? What part of God’s will doesn’t God seek?

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

 

[inJESUS]

How can Jesus not seek his own will but the will of God if Jesus is also God and has God’s will? What part of God’s will doesn’t God seek?

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

how is this not in harmony with the passage i quoted from Isaiah? the Word sent from the Mouth of the Lord does His Will because it cannot but do His will since the Word is God, regardless of the means by which it was sent, in this case, a human with a human will.

Unlike any other prophet, Jesus never ever opposed the Will of the Father or committed any sin or prayed for His salvation or aked forgiveness because He is the Word of the Father sent to do the Father’s Will.