Does the Bible actually teach that we have free will?

[dmar198]

Yes, and no. The real question here is whether Paul’s concept of “free will” is compatible with determinism or not. (We know from other passages that Paul subscribes to predestination. And since predestination implies determinism, the it logically follows that Paul subscribes to compatiblist free will - free will that is compatible with determinism.)

I don’t think predestination is compatible with determinism, because predestination only happens in view of man’s free choices. Does that make sense?

Do you believe your concept of “free will” is compatible with determinism? That’s the real question here.

No, because determinism seems to make one’s decisions necessary. If there is any necessity, I don’t think they are free.

Self-determinism is either compatible with determinism or it is not. This is not debatable. (It is not possible to engage in a logical debate with individuals who refuse to abide by the dictates of logic.)

I don’t think self-determinism is compatible with determinism because determinism seems to me to mean that our choices are caused by prior events. Indeterminism is not the only other option, though, because indeterminism leaves out the possibility that the will causes its own decisions. Does this analysis seem fair to you?

 

[ynotzap]

Predestination is a limited human term to signify the effects of God’s saving grace upon man’s life and choices without interfering with freedom of will. (as if our finite minds, unaided could understand the Infinite Mind) If free will did not exist and human experience does show that some people do good, and some people do evil, and God created them to be that way (determined) then God contradicts Himself. That is an impossibility, then God wouldn’t be God. but fallible. This truth is implicit in the Bible (free choice).

It is not God’s knowledge (Omniscience) that will determine our actions or choices, it is our knowledge, or lack of knowledge that will determine our choices. Our good as the mind perceives it is limited by our understanding and knowledge, our perception may be subjective or objective as to the real good.

There is determination in the design of the will, it will always seek the good, and there is determination in the intellect, it will always seek the true. The true and the good is that which is objectively conducive to the well being of the agent, the person.

God does, by the influence of Grace, attract us to the real good but in every case it demands co-operation by our wills, (our choice) with that grace.

Like wise by the influence of Satan over our fallen nature, he attracts us to evil, but in every case it demands our c0-operation (our choice) Ignorance of the objective truth is a stumbling block to acquiring true happiness and the greatest good.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t think predestination is compatible with determinism, because predestination only happens in view of man’s free choices. Does that make sense? No, because determinism seems to make one’s decisions necessary. If there is any necessity, I don’t think they are free. I don’t think self-determinism is compatible with determinism because determinism seems to me to mean that our choices are caused by prior events. Indeterminism is not the only other option, though, because indeterminism leaves out the possibility that the will causes its own decisions. Does this analysis seem fair to you?

Eminently! Self-determinism occurs within the context of divine Providence. i.e. we cannot behave with impunity. Our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their own punishment…

 

[Charlemagne_III]

By the way, the topic of this thread concerns whether or not the Bible actually teaches that we have free will, not predestination.

Did you read post #23?

How does that post not prove the Bible teaches free will?

 

[tonyrey]

Predestination is a limited human term to signify the effects of God’s saving grace upon man’s life and choices without interfering with freedom of will. (as if our finite minds, unaided could understand the Infinite Mind) If free will did not exist and human experience does show that some people do good, and some people do evil, and God created them to be that way (determined) then God contradicts Himself. That is an impossibility, then God wouldn’t be God. but fallible. This truth is implicit in the Bible (free choice).

It is not God’s knowledge (Omniscience) that will determine our actions or choices, it is our knowledge, or lack of knowledge that will determine our choices. Our good as the mind perceives it is limited by our understanding and knowledge, our perception may be subjective or objective as to the real good.

There is determination in the design of the will, it will always seek the good, and there is determination in the intellect, it will always seek the true. The true and the good is that which is objectively conducive to the well being of the agent, the person.

God does, by the influence of Grace, attract us to the real good but in every case it demands co-operation by our wills, (our choice) with that grace.

Like wise by the influence of Satan over our fallen nature, he attracts us to evil, but in every case it demands our c0-operation (our choice) Ignorance of the objective truth is a stumbling block to acquiring true happiness and the greatest good.

Self-determination occurs within the framework of Design.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t think predestination is compatible with determinism, because predestination only happens in view of man’s free choices. Does that make sense? No, because determinism seems to make one’s decisions necessary. If there is any necessity, I don’t think they are free. I don’t think self-determinism is compatible with determinism because determinism seems to me to mean that our choices are caused by prior events. Indeterminism is not the only other option, though, because indeterminism leaves out the possibility that the will causes its own decisions. Does this analysis seem fair to you?

It is not only fair but the only explanation consistent with moral and legal responsibility.

 

[Doug_Kraeger]

Counterpoint: A couple of questions.
Is your idea of God’s infinite power large enough to allow God to be able to turn the whole blessed world right side up by His peaceful means without violating anyone’s freewill and infinitely powerful enough to create freewill such that when He gives us truly infinite graces to be like Him because we see Him as He IS in heaven (and partial knowledge ceases CCC 314), we still have freewill and could choose to sin BUT all free wills each freely chooses to do God’s eternal Will, even if this means some freely choose to go to hell forever and ever and ever and ever… because that is God’s Will and all are now reconciled with God by His free gift of infinite grace and mercy with absolutely no merits on the part of those going to hell whereas those going to heaven have some “merit” because they persevered in cooperating with God in an acceptable time?

Since God eternally sees all points of time and space all at once, knowing every detail of every thought, He knows what decisions we each make using our freewill and He eternally knows when each will sin (to sin requires a freewill) and when each will repent (which also requires a freewill) Since the bible teaches we can sin and repent, it teaches we have freewill.
CCC 2814, “which by the holiness of His Name, God saves and makes holy all creation”. How do you reconcile God saving all, especially believers (Tim 4:10) and freewill? If we do not have freewill, then all the pain and suffering could not be avoided or benefitted from by man and that would make God a sort of evil being who created us for suffering we could not avoid. Is this what you want people to believe if there is no freewill?

 

[ericc]

Libertarian free will (since it is incompatible with determinism by definition) must reconcile itself with indeterminism. IOW, given the same situation and circumstances, the only explanation why we could have chosen otherwise must ultimately reduce to pure chance. How can I be held any more responsible for a choice that ultimately reduces to randomness than I can for one that was completely predetermined?

Also, the Bible clearly teaches predestination.

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” Ephesians 1:3-11

The Bible is littered with people doing their own will against God’s wishes. If there is no free will, God would need not issue the 10 commandments as everyone would fall in line and do what God intended. Or that God is terrible at making robots.

Although you highlighted “predestinated” repeatedly, you have chosen to ignore “foreknowledge”. Why do you miss that out? I find it hard to extricate the effects/results of predestination vs foreknowledge. Whatever God foreknew you can deem that as predestination too. Free will and foreknowledge are independent of each other. I guess the foreknowledge factor will upset your model of whatever you are trying to attempt here. In fact Romans 8:29-30 that you mentioned indicated the predestinated came from God’s foreknowledge.

Free will and indeterminism are not exact synonyms for each other. Simply put, free will means without coercion whereas indeterminism means without antecedent causes. One could conceivably may have a free will + antecedent causes and free will w/o antecedent causes. An example of the first would be decision making after considering available information (name removed by moderator)ut and not throwing a dice and no gun pointed to my head to decide the selection. An example of the 2nd is to decide to use a coin to determine a selection. Heads I go to the cinema, tails I go to the discotheque. No coercion. Pure randomness. Or I can ask my friend to make the decision for me.

You have been at this free will/determinism/indeterminism for quite some time. Many have given their (name removed by moderator)uts. If their (name removed by moderator)uts are not credible, perhaps you want to show why their responses are inadequate. Or you could put your hypothesis upfront and let people throw stones at it. If you can defend it, or their challenges do have a point, then you know how solid your hypothesis is. If your point is just to show that God is irrelevant, just declare as it is and let us try to dismantle your model. I am sure we can do this logically or with theological support.