Does the Bible define itself?

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Does it? A friend of mine says it does, he gave me a couple examples:

Revelation 17:3
“3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.”

He says one verse that defines this is Rev 7:24 where it says that ten horns are ten kings, so the ten horns in 17:3 are kings.

He also gives this example.

Hebrews 11:12
“12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.”

He sites verse like Gen 22:17; Deut 1:10; and Deut 10:22. What should I make of this?
 
Yes, Hermeneutics is the study of interpretation theory, and though many people come up with many different interpretations, there is only one truth to be had out of the bible.
The bible itself tells us what the hermeneutics should be. and they are the following.

Is 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

1Chor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual

Matt 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,

Matt 13:35 that is might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

Ps 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable.

Mark 5:33 And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it.

Mark 5:34 But without a parable He did not speak to them. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.

The answer you are looking for are in these verses. Compare scripture with scripture, and realize that all of the word, is spoken in parables.

remember John 1:14: the word became flesh and dwelt among us.

the word of God is His scripture; the word made flesh was Christ; Christ only spoke in parables. The whole bible is the word of God, Christ is the fullness of the Godhead bodily and is the word made flesh.

The bible is a parable in its entirety.

A parable is an earthly story with a spiritual meaning. All of the stories not explicitely called dreams, visions, or a parable of Christ specifically, is true literaly earthly stories, and every one of the stories have a spiritual meaning for the believer with ears to hear.

consequetly all of the visions, dreams and parables of Christ specifically mentioned are all spiritual, however earthly language is used to explain it to us.

Once you realize the rules you will have harmony when reading for truth.
 
Here is an example of letting the bible tell us what the bible means. in this example the bible is telling us the reality of hell, death suffering and judgment. And we learn some interesting facts about it. This is something i learned contrary to church teaching and was amazed about what i learned.

The Rich man and Lazarus, Luke 16

The parable describes two individuals. The rich man has all of the joys and comforts this present world can bring, but he is not saved. The poor man, Lazarus, has none of the good things of this world, but he is a saved man. Finally, both men die. The rich man is buried, and Lazarus is carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22). To be in the bosom of Abraham is a picture of being in the highest blessing in the presence of God. To be buried is to be placed in the grave. The parable then continues with a conversation between the dead rich man and Abraham (GOD), who is in heaven. Remember, “grave” and “death” is the same thing as hell. Therefore, it is not incorrect to say that the rich man was in hell (Luke 16:23)

But you must understand, that lifting up his eyes and seeing Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom, and speaking to Abraham, are all hypothetical. That is, God has set up a completely imaginary tableau, or a three dimensional picture, or in other words a parable, in order to convey spiritual truth. These truths include important doctrines such as the following.
#1 The rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus with a drop of water to cool his tongue (Luke 16:24). There is NO MERCY or GRACE to those who have died unsaved.
#2 There is a great gulf between heaven and hell. Heaven is eternal life. Hell is death forevermore. Never, never will those who are dead ever come to life again.
#3 The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers because he thought that such a miracle will cause them to become believers. The truth is, they have Moses and the prophets, the Old Testament. If they will not believe the Bible, then they will not believe even if they witness some great miracle.
#4 The rich man is tormented in this flame. The Greek word that is translated “tormented” is used only in verse 24, in verse 25 (“thou art tormented”), in Luke 2:48, and in Acts 20:38. The “flame” emphasizes the rich man is being punished by God, who is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). The word “torment,” which is defined by its usage in Acts 20:38 and Luke 2:48, indicates the nature and character of the torment he is experiencing. Now we will look carefully at this word and its usage in these two verses.
Acts 20:38: Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.
Luke 2:48: And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? Behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

In both of these verses, the word that is translated as “tormented” in Luke 16 is translated as “sorrowing.” This sorrowing has nothing to do with physical pain. It is the sorrow of not seeing a loved one again. The rich man was in torment because he was sorrowing that he could never again have the joys and comforts he had experienced in his life on earth. While Lazarus was safe and secure with the greatest blessings forevermore.

In other words, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus teaches us nothing at all about eternal pain in a place called hell. It is teaching us about the penalty of losing all the blessings of this life, and gaining none of the blessings
 
zach dunn-Does it? A friend of mine says it does said:
Revelation 17:3
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“3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.”

So Revelations is not in code and you and your friend beleif this🤷
He says one verse that defines this is Rev 7:24 where it says that ten horns are ten kings, so the ten horns in 17:3 are kings.
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***OK :blush:I spoke to soon. You don’t beleive it, but feel qualified to translate it:shrug:

I’m not sure which is a scarier thought?***

He also gives this example.
Hebrews 11:12
“12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.”
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***Heb. 118 "By faith ***Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him [Meaning Yahweh God] faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, darn near as “old as sand” way past the age to be able without Gods direct intervention to impregnant his aged wife] were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore

From Abrahan came Jacob, from Jacob came his 12 sons and the Twelve tribes of Isreal, and ypu know the rest of the story?

He sites verse like Gen 22:17; Deut 1:10; and Deut 10:22. What should I make of this?

*** Gen. 22: 17 “I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice” * And so God did!**

Durt. 10:22 "Then all of you came near me, and said, ‘Let us send men before us, that they may explore the land for us, and bring us word again of the way by which we must go up and the cities into which we shall come.’.

R U sure you don’t mean v 10 the LORD your God has multiplied you, and behold, you are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude. ?

So friend I need to understand what “ten horns” has to do with kings? I’m missing something here:o

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
No

If you or anyone thinks otherwise, please share. Thanks.
 
PJM said:
So Revelations is not in code and you and your friend beleif this🤷
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When did I ever say that I believe it? Please do not put words into my mouth.
***OK :blush:I spoke to soon. You don’t beleive it, but feel qualified to translate it:shrug:
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I’m not sure which is a scarier thought?***
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It looks like I too have spoken too soon. You’re right, I do not believe it, and I do not “feel qualified to translate it,” I didn’t know what to say in defense of my position so I came here looking for help.
He also gives this example.
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***Heb. 118 "By faith ***Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him [Meaning Yahweh God] faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, darn near as “old as sand” way past the age to be able without Gods direct intervention to impregnant his aged wife] were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore
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From Abrahan came Jacob, from Jacob came his 12 sons and the Twelve tribes of Isreal, and ypu know the rest of the story?
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**
Actually, no. I have no clue what you are trying to say here, sorry.**
He sites verse like Gen 22:17; Deut 1:10; and Deut 10:22. What should I make of this?
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*** Gen. 22: 17 “I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice” *** And so God did!
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You’re missing the point here. My friend is saying that the “stars of heaven” from Heb 11:12 are people. He “proves” this by quoting passages of scripture equating people with stars. What my friend is trying to “prove” with these examples is basically that the Bible interprets itself, it does this by defining itself and these examples he gives are “proof” of that.
Durt. 10:22 "Then all of you came near me, and said, ‘Let us send men before us, that they may explore the land for us, and bring us word again of the way by which we must go up and the cities into which we shall come.’.
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R U sure you don’t mean v 10 the LORD your God has multiplied you, and behold, you are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude. ?
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**Nope, I’m sure that I mean Deuteronomy 10:22

Deuteronomy 10:22
“22 In seventy souls thy fathers went down into Egypt: and behold now the Lord thy God hath multiplied thee as the stars of heaven.” [Douay-Rheims]**
So friend I need to understand what “ten horns” has to do with kings? I’m missing something here:o
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Love and prayers,
Pat
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What does ten horns have to do with kings? Did you not read the OP? Kings are equated with horns elsewhere in Revelation (chapter 7 verse 24). To my friend this proves that the Bible defines itself and does not need an infallible interpreter.
 
The Protestant error of “sola scriptura” is self refuting. The term “sola scriptura” can be defined as follows: “The Bible and only the Bible is the infallible rule of faith.” But the words “only the Bible” can be translated into Latin as “sola scriptura”.
Substituting this into the above definition we have: “The Bible and ‘sola scriptura’ is the rule of faith.”

This shows that “sola scriptura” logically refutes itself because this principle must be assumed to be true IN ADDITION TO the Bible. As such, “sola scriptura” refutes what it purports to claim.

This is an application of Kurt Godel’s Second Incompleteness Theorem from metamathematical analysis. Self-referential statements (such as the Liar Paradox of Epimenides or using the Bible to prove the Bible to be the sole rule of faith independant of any external reference) are notorious for making statements which are logically unprovable within the formal system that makes the claim. It is only by assuming a transcendental position outside the system under scrutiny that such contentions can be proven true or false.

In the case of “sola scriptura,” the necessity of assuming the transcendental position in and of itself refutes the principle under question.
by Art Sippo

Prove, by the Bible alone, the list of books to be in the New Testament. In other words, show me the verse that says there are 27 books in the New Testament. It’s impossible, because no such verse exists.

2 Tim 3:
14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned (TRADITION) and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it (MAGISTERIUM)
15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Sola scripturists avoid verse 14 and 15 because it demolishes their position.

The Bible on St. Paul’s list comes in third, not first. He actually gives here the traditional Catholic teaching on the three sources of sound teaching.
In verse 15 he goes into an excursus on the Bible. This brief excursus emphasizes the value of the Bible and recommends a fourfold method of exegesis. This verse was used as a proof text for the Quadriga which was the standard Catholic approach to the Bible. The Quadriga method used the following four categories:

Literal/Literary (teaching) - the text as it is written
Analogical (reproof) - matters of faith
Anagogical (correction) - matters of hope/prophecy
Moral (training in righteousness) - matters of charity

The so called reformers rejected all this and instead adopted a more literal approach to biblical exegesis, and Martin Luther was rejected by his contemporaries for ignoring 2 Timothy 3:16.

Verse 16 says “all scripture”. It does not say “only scripture”.
St. Paul cannot be refering to a Bible that had not even been completed, he was referring to the Old Testamet. This is common sense.

Nowhere in the whole Bible is “man of God” any individual bible reader, it is an ordained clergyman, or one who is called directly by God who is accompanied by signs and wonders.
 
zach_dunn said:
When did I ever say that I believe it? Please do not put words into my mouth.

It looks like I too have spoken too soon. You’re right, I do not believe it, and I do not “feel qualified to translate it,” I didn’t know what to say in defense of my position so I came here looking for help.

Actually, no. I have no clue what you are trying to say here, sorry.

You’re missing the point here. My friend is saying that the "stars of heaven" from Heb 11:12 are people. He “proves” this by quoting passages of scripture equating people with stars. What my friend is trying to “prove” with these examples is basically that the Bible interprets itself, it does this by defining itself and these examples he gives are “proof” of that.

Nope, I’m sure that I mean Deuteronomy 10:22

Deuteronomy 10:22
"22 In seventy souls thy fathers went down into Egypt: and behold now the Lord thy God hath multiplied thee as the stars of heaven." [Douay-Rheims]

What does ten horns have to do with kings? Did you not read the OP? Kings are equated with horns elsewhere in Revelation (chapter 7 verse 24). To my friend this proves that the Bible defines itself and does not need an infallible interpreter.
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It looks as though what your friend is talking about is something known as the **perspicuity **of the Bible.​

That can only be a guess - so could you ask him what he means ? He is after all your friend - and he won’t have to guess at what he means.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

It looks as though what your friend is talking about is something known as the **perspicuity **of the Bible.​

That can only be a guess - so could you ask him what he means ? He is after all your friend - and he won’t have to guess at what he means.
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That’s IT Gottle! Thank you, I couldn’t remember the word he used but you knew what he was talking about, nice. He said he believed that the Bible was perspicuous, AND that it defined itself. Do these two beliefs go hand in hand?
 
Other Bible verses may indeed help a person to a true understand of a particular verse. On the other hand, still other Bible verses may lead a person to a false understanding of a particular verse. It all depends on which Bible verses a person decides are relevant to the verse in question and his decision in this matter will undoubtedly be based on his own extra-Biblical preconceptions.
 
=diggerdomer;5618040]No
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If you or anyone thinks otherwise, please share. Thanks.
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Of course it does:D

***1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, * and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. *** 👍

Love and prayers friend
 
The bible is a collection of books (originally not even divided into chapters and verses, and missing modern punctuation.) Books by definition, do no interpretation. That is up to readers, writers, and authors.
 
PJM said:
Of course it does:D

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, * and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
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That’s about Jesus Christ, not the Bible.
 
Originally Posted by PJM
Of course it does

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, * and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

That’s about Jesus Christ, not the Bible

…

john 1:14: and the word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Now we have harmony.

Christ and the bible are both synonomous with the Word of God.

They are one and the same.
 
BibleAnswer said:
LOL, you are way off base my friend. Your statement contradicts scripture.
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Well I must be in good company because the Catholic Church does not teach that Jesus Christ and the Bible are one and the same.

I doubt this will help…but for the sake of argument can you show us where Scripture says that Jesus Christ and the Bible are the same? Thanks.
 
diggerdomer said:
Well I must be in good company because the Catholic Church does not teach that Jesus Christ and the Bible are one and the same.

I doubt this will help…but for the sake of argument can you show us where Scripture says that Jesus Christ and the Bible are the same? Thanks.
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Ps 119:99-104
I have more understanding than all my teachers, for Your testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Your precepts. I have restrained my feet from every evil way, that I may keep Your word. I have not departed from Your judgments, for You Yourself have taught me. How sweet are **Your words **to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.

2 Chronicles 36:21-22 (King James Version)
21To fulfil the **word of the LORD **by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
22Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that **the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah **might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

Matthew 5:17-18 (King James Version)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from **the law, **till all be fulfilled.

Luke 22:37-38 (King James Version)
37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

John 1-3;14 (King James Version)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Romans 13:9-10 (King James Version)
9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

2 Corinthians 1:20 (King James Version)
20For all **the promises of God in him **are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

2Tim 3:14-17
But as for you, **continue in the things which you have learned **and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Deuteronomy 6:5 (New King James Version)
5 You shall **love the LORD **your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Deuteronomy 7:9 (King James Version)
9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that **love him and keep his commandments **to a thousand generations;

Deuteronomy 7:12 (King James Version)
12Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
[our fathers are Abraham,Isaac,Jacob, God spoke to them and made a covenant(God’s law), and Moses recorded the account as given by God in scripture(God’s law), aka the bible(God’s law). The fulfillment of the covenant(God’s law) is in Christ(the law made flesh).

Deuteronomy 10:12 (King James Version)
12And now, Israel(metaphor for the true believer,as God is from everlasting to everlasting, His word is the same, it is the same message then, as it is now, nothing has changed), **what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deuteronomy 11:1 (King James Version)
1Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always.
Matthew 13:34-35 (King James Version)
34All these things **Jesus spoke **to the multitude in parables; and **without a parable He did not speak **to them,
35 that is might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:“I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable.

Mark 5:33-34 (King James Version)
33And with **many such parables He spoke the word **to them as they were able to hear it.
34But **without a parable He did not speak **to them. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.
Do you see a connection?
 
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