Does the catechism teach that we become gods after our death?

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Esdra

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Hi

in another post Todd (our dear convert from Catholicism to Mormonism) stated the following:
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zipporah:
pbondat:
Zipporah,
Along with the other resources already listed, I suggest you also view “The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon” at youtube.com/watch?v=dTtq62XQ4jw
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Many Mormons are wonderful, honest people who believe what they practice is right, and much of their terminology sounds very Christian, but their belief behind that terminology is vastly different from what we believe. For example, can you get your mind around one day you can become a god equivalent to God? If not, in my opinion you’ll continue to struggle with fully accepting Mormonism.

My prayers are with you on your journey.

Oh no it would be blaspheme to think one could be equal to God.I would never think or believe that.If that is true then I can never be a Mormon.
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todd520:
Zipporah, please take your time and investigate these seperate churches.
  • as another said, pray for the guidance of the Holy Ghost
  • don’t accept the word of faith X about faith Y, speak to the source.
The second bullet is soo important as Catholics often don’t have a solid grasp of LDS and visa versa. Even the example given here of “man becoming God” was answered incorrectly.
FYI, this has been a Catholic teaching since the ECF, and is in the Catechism.
"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" (Par 460 in Catechism)
Understanding it is more complicated than hearing the quote.
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Stephen168:
This is about the fourth time at CAF you (Todd520) have tried to claim this teaching as the same for Catholics and Mormons. You know it is not the same; very dishonest of you.
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I have researched a bit and found out that Todd520 even quoted the Catechism of the CC wrongly!
www.vatican.va:
Code: 
“Jesus Christ was conceived by the power
of the Holy Spirit, and was born of the Virgin Mary”
85. Why did the Son of God become man?

456-460

For us men and for our salvation, the Son of God became incarnate in the womb of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit. He did so to reconcile us sinners with God, to have us learn of God’s infinite love, to be our model of holiness and to make us “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4).
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So, I would say that “partakers of the divine nature” and “become a god” are two COMPLETELY different things.

Now my question: What does in your opinion mean to be “partaker of the divine nature?”

Esdra
 
Can you tell me about the concept of theosis in the Eastern Catholic Tradition and the Eastern Orthodox tradition, please?

Esdra
 
If I partake of food, do I fully become the food?

Poor analogy, but it speaks to this. Partaking of something does not mean becoming equal to it. This is what the statement contained in one of the OP quotes tries to do. It says
*For example, can you get your mind around one day you can become a god equivalent to God? *
Partaking of the divine nature, the sharing in that nature, in no way implies equivelancy with that nature.

Oxygen is necessary for sustaining our lives. We all “partake” of the oxygen around us. It enters us and sustains us and becomes a part of us and who we are as humans. Do we become “equivelent” to oxygen?

As another said, he is simply twisting this prhase to fit his own distorted theology.

Peace
James
 
Catholic Encyclopedia:
St. Thomas (II-II, Q. xi, a. 1) defines heresy: “a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas”. "The right Christian faith consists in giving one’s voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ’s doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics.
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Partaking of the divine nature, for me, has always meant partaking in the divine life, for the Holy Spirit is the very author and giver of life. As Our Lord said,

[4] Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.
The Gospel according to Saint Matthew, IV, iv.

Please note that Saint Matthew immediately follows this very declaration of Christ with,

[5] Then the devil took him up into the holy city…
The Gospel according to Saint Matthew, IV, v.

Something about Christ’s statement, it appears, irked the devil. In my humble opinion, the devil didn’t take kindly to Christ’s teaching man he is more than just mere bread - much like atheists don’t like Christians asserting that man cannot be reckoned simply as being a highly advanced animal. He is something more than that : he is capable of sharing in God’s own life. But this is where Christians and Mormons differ : we emphasize the sharing in His Perfect and Divine Life ; they insinuate that each man himself can become “the god.” The distinction only appears interchangeable, as the former recognizes God’s primacy, majesty, and singularity of Being ; the latter denies this by implicating that many gods can exist, which is impossible without doing serious injury to the Christian belief in God’s ultimate and absolute Sovereignty.

Strangely, and to conclude, the ultimate temptation from the devil to Christ following his declaration was exactly what the Mormons tempt man with : that he can become himself a god seperate from the One and Only True God :

[6] And [the devil] said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. [7] Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. [8] Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, [9] And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me. [10] Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve.
** The Gospel according to Saint Matthew ; IV, vi - x.**

Contrast Satan’s promise to give Jesus all earthly power and dominion over those kingdoms, if only he exchanges his loyalty to God his Father and adores Satan instead, to the Mormon promise that each man will have his own planet, over and in which he shall be a god and possess dominion over it like God does the earth - but only if you follow the teachings of Mormonism.

Pax,
Tim
 
There are foundational differences in the understanding of Who God is. Mormons reject the Holy Trinity. Their theology of their god(s) are that they were once human, like themselves, progressed to godhood and are eternally progressing in power and glory. Their teachings are that they are going through the same process as their god, and the goal of this life is progressing to godhood into the next. Once gods, they teach that they will also progress in power and glory, but since their god is ahead of them in this process, they will never be equal to that god.

When a Mormon says they will never be equal to their god, this is what they mean. Most of the time they don’t explain what they mean when making this statement.

Catholic doctrine is that we partake of the divine nature. What does this mean? The Sacraments prefigure our life with God. We partake of the divine nature now, at every Mass. This will be perfected in the life to come.

The analogy I like is the one that describes a iron rod in fire, it becomes hot and glows because of the fire, but it does not become the fire. It is an iron rod.

Are you the same nature as god? Can you become one with the Holy Trinity in nature, and so the Holy Trinity becomes more than three Persons? Mormons teach that you can, and the only way this is possible is to reject the nature of God, as God, as make god human like yourself.

This is an error, in the extreme, and not Catholic doctrine.

Peace.

Rebecca
 
Hi Rebecca,

thank for that intersting post. 🙂
RebeccaJ said:
There are foundational differences in the understanding of Who God is. Mormons reject the Holy Trinity. Their theology of their god(s) are that they were once human, like themselves, progressed to godhood and are eternally progressing in power and glory. Their teachings are that they are going through the same process as their god, and the goal of this life is progressing to godhood into the next. Once gods, they teach that they will also progress in power and glory, but since their god is ahead of them in this process, they will never be equal to that god.
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So it IS freemansory thinking, as I have thought.
When a Mormon says they will never be equal to their god, this is what they mean. Most of the time they don’t explain what they mean when making this statement.
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Catholic doctrine is that we partake of the divine nature. What does this mean? The Sacraments prefigure our life with God. We partake of the divine nature now, at every Mass. This will be perfected in the life to come.
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The analogy I like is the one that describes a iron rod in fire, it becomes hot and glows because of the fire, but it does not become the fire. It is an iron rod.
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Are you the same nature as god? Can you become one with the Holy Trinity in nature, and so the Holy Trinity becomes more than three Persons? Mormons teach that you can, and the only way this is possible is to reject the nature of God, as God, as make god human like yourself.
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This is an error, in the extreme, and not Catholic doctrine.
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Peace.
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Rebecca
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Right, now I got it! ;=)

Esdra
 
Thanks for the links, brother! 🙂

I’ll have a look at them if I have time, tomorrow or so.

Esdra
 
Esdra,

You have now witnessed peoples of other religions who have an adversarial spirit against the truth of Christ’s universal, apostolic Church, cannot properly understand our catechism because they see everything, as Marie said, through the prism of Mormonism.

Of course, we all view that around us through our belief constructs, which in turn reflect on our own personal history, issues, and biases.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is with us now. He said if we eat and drink His Blood, we will have eternal life. To partake in the Eucharist and the other sacraments – visible, concrete, non-arbitrary signs of Christ present among us, we, now today, are already living the divine life.

Living the divine life as a human being is living in the transcendent state of the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount. Our great reward as Catholics is being with our Lord for all eternity, and those relationships that are centered on Christ today will also endure with us in heaven.

I also met a poor, Greek Orthodox guy at a dental office for the poor in my town. He came in and together in front of the Mormon dentist, we made the sign of the Cross together and said the Gloria…Glory Be to the Father, to the Son, and Holy Spirit…AMEN!

The Mormon dentist by then was accepting of me, and we were in our own little ecumenical communion at the dentist chair. Very enjoyable experience.

The Greek guy said when he dies, he wants to ask the Lord to let him go around the world and see all the things he could not see in this life. He wanted to go under the sea and see all that was there, as well as go visit the sky and celestial universe…and how he couldn’t wait.

I think heaven – a mystery now to us – will be the place where we realize most fully our glorification – with God and He will give us a new heaven and new earth.
 
First of all, Todd520 did not misquote the Catechism, 460 reads as follows:
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

What is clear is that the writers of the Catechism are just as comfortable stating that man might become God as St. Athanasius of Alexandria was. He stated, “God became man so that man might become god” (On the Incarnation 54:3, PG 25:192B). In fact, many of the ECF wrote similar statements.

It is also true that the concept of Theosis or deification as it is more often called in the West is different from what Mormons believe. Though it is clear that we should be comfortable with the language of becoming God or gods, when used it is best understood that we fully partake in the holiness of God. Reading a few articles on this topic is not enough; it is a life-long study.

I have studied this for a long period of time and will be studying it for the rest of my life. One thing that I have learned is it is best NOT to ridicule our Mormons friends about language or concepts that even the ECF discussed far more openly than we do today.
 
KathleenGee said:
Esdra,

You have now witnessed peoples of other religions who have an adversarial spirit against the truth of Christ’s universal, apostolic Church, cannot properly understand our catechism because they see everything, as Marie said, through the prism of Mormonism.

Of course, we all view that around us through our belief constructs, which in turn reflect on our own personal history, issues, and biases.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is with us now. He said if we eat and drink His Blood, we will have eternal life. To partake in the Eucharist and the other sacraments – visible, concrete, non-arbitrary signs of Christ present among us, we, now today, are already living the divine life.

Living the divine life as a human being is living in the transcendent state of the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount. Our great reward as Catholics is being with our Lord for all eternity, and those relationships that are centered on Christ today will also endure with us in heaven.

I also met a poor, Greek Orthodox guy at a dental office for the poor in my town. He came in and together in front of the Mormon dentist, we made the sign of the Cross together and said the Gloria…Glory Be to the Father, to the Son, and Holy Spirit…AMEN!

The Mormon dentist by then was accepting of me, and we were in our own little ecumenical communion at the dentist chair. Very enjoyable experience.

The Greek guy said when he dies, he wants to ask the Lord to let him go around the world and see all the things he could not see in this life. He wanted to go under the sea and see all that was there, as well as go visit the sky and celestial universe…and how he couldn’t wait.

I think heaven – a mystery now to us – will be the place where we realize most fully our glorification – with God and He will give us a new heaven and new earth.
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then the Greek gentleman is in for a treat Kathleen. i had a very vivid dream or vision of paradise, that was very intstrumental in my conversion. it wasnt paradise that did it for me. it was WHO was showing me what path to walk to get there, where he was. but the other side makes this old earth pale by comparison. i only caught a very brief glimpse, then the door was closed. i truly believe what the Catholic Church teaches. we will have a share in his divinity, due to the fact, that our ressurected bodies will be like his, at the second coming. did not Christ himself say to the teachers of israel, " is it not written, ye are gods?" i never even knew this teaching existed until i started having very good conversations with my priest. this and some other things that are taught, really took me aback. but then after reflection, made perfect sense. the mystery of Christ and his Church, is deeper than the deepest ocean. we truly do not have a surface religion, we have a faith, that if followed, leads to life eternal. Peace 🙂
 
Todd and JeanMichael

You both misquoted the Catholic Catechism CC460!!!

CC460. The Word became flesh to make us ‘partakers of the divine nature.’ For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.’

(This quote is attributed to St. Irenaeus, none other than one of the Early Church Fathers the Mormons reject when debating whether or not the Apostles had successors.)

Catholic Catechism CC460 continues:

‘The only begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, sot that he made man, might make men gods.’ --St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica was also very clear in Who God is and who we are not.

With St. Thomas’ remark, the priest added…and this point is also reclarified throughout the Universal Catholic Catechism, “we Catholics enter into God, --NOT BECOMING OR REPLACING HIM”…and he had us write this remark next to this very passage!

Fr Richard Rohr could not understand very well why Christ referred himself as the Son of Man…he finally realized how much our own very DNA as human beings is divine…We are indeed made in the image of God. Our souls hunger and need God even more than we need a cup of water or a plate of food. We are to share in the Divine Life not replace it in the next life.

The early Christians already believed that the kingdom of heaven is here on earth. Last night I read some of Fr Hampsch’s book ‘On the Healing of the Eucharist’…and spoke of some saints who had such an intense love for Christ in the Eucharist, hungering to the extreme for His love and to commune with Him constantly.

We sharing in the Divine Nature in no way intends to violate the First Commandment.

Again, it is all about context…and when people who are not Catholic or oppose it, I have yet to see an exception, misinterpret the Catechism and the mission and nature of our Catholic Church.
 
Benedict…I couldn’t sleep…and after my last post here, I was finally able to go back…

I re read your new post and want to thank you for such a wonderful response…it is a spiritual gift of the Advent Season. What a beautiful memory to hold on to…and now I take it to heart as well…truly a shared experience.

For all I know, the Greek Guy- who looked like Terry Savalas and was always play word games with the dental associates – could be sampling a bit right now…such a happy person with the heart of a child.

That for me is also part of our life long divinization…that as we enter into Christ now with His kingdom at heart…instead of getting a taste to be another god…as we grow in sharing the Divine Life in Christ, we are finding ourselves returning to the innocence we had as little children.

The Greek Guy was already in Christ’s kingdom…hungering more for Him, for his eternal salvation with Him, and to see a brand new life waiting for him…

We must not be as gods but as little children to enter Christ’s kingdom today. That is also more fun!!!
 
Kathleen,
Is this the catechism in question?:
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
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What about this is mis-quoted?
Do I detect back-peddling and rationalizing to make this not mean what it says?
 
Hi Flyonthewall,

Todd misquoted the Catechism that begin stating in 460 – for context – that the Word became flesh to make us “partakers…” by the Son of God becoming the Son of man…so that man entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship…“might become a God”…the last phrase an error. This partaking of the Word instead makes us a son of God, not a god in ourselves.

We enter into God, not becoming or replacing Him. To say we become gods in ourselves violates the First Commandment as I had shared with you previously.

I have read and studied Book One: God of Summa Contra Gentiles by St. Thomas Aquina in a small class with a Dominican scholar of the Summa and by no means did St. Thomas ever teach that we become gods. St. Thomas said man’s understanding of God can be compared to the eye of an owl next to the sun…Note, The eye of an owl is only used in darkness.

St. Thomas states that God is pure truth; there can be no falsehood in Him. The intellect fails when it comes to the wrong conclusion because it is not operating essentially on the truth of Who God is. God knows our will and our inclinations,
our thoughts and inclinations.

"This is confirmed by the testimony of Sacred Scripture. For it is said in a Pslalm 7:10, “The searcher of hearts and reins is God.” And in the proverbs (15:11) “Hell and destruction are before the Lord: how much more the hearts of the children of men.” “He knew what was in man.”, John (2:25).

Preceding CC460 is 357: Being in the image of God the human individual possesses the dignity of a person, who is not just something, but someone. He is capable of self-knowledge, of self-possession and of freely giving himself and entering into communion with other persons. And he is called by grace to a covenant with his Creator, to offer him a response of faith and love that no other creature can give in his stead.

CC358: God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him…

CC364: The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God:; it is a human body that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through im they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.

CC366: The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God – it is not “produced by parents” – and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

To paraphrase the Catholic emphasis that we are creatures, and our goal is to be united with God rather than ourselves in our own separate way become gods…we are ordered to be supernatural, that we can be raised to be in communion with God which comes about by grace through faith in Christ in the Eucharist, the summit of our faith.

The context that St. Thomas Aquinas is giving us again here, is in the Eucharist. If you wish to read more of what St. Thomas meant, Flyonthewall, here is a treatise from the Vatican Library.

www.vatican.va/roman_curia/point_committees/eucharist_committ_euchar_doc_2004
 
I tried the link but it only brought me to main site…will check some more…
 
The Church of Latter Day Saints is NOT a Christian religion by any stretch of the imagination (except by theirs). They reject virtually ever precept of the Christian religions. They truly believe that MEN become Gods (but women do not), and that each man will have his own little world of his own.

Even if a man beat his wife repeatedly and she divorced him, if he molested his children repeatedly, so long as the marriage was 'sealed in the temple" the wife and children will be his servants once he becomes a “God”.

{ There is however one area where they truly put most actual Christians to shame. They take care of their own, big time. Their churches are truly a community center, and they encourage activities there (most not religious) 7 days a week. If someone in their Stake is “down and out”, they will provide for the family, provide work for them if needed, and see to it that no one goes without food, clothing and necessary medical care. Oh, if only we Catholics were so generous to our own people.}

There is nothing at all Christian about most of their beliefs. They claim to be Christian, because they claim that after his death and resurrection, Jesus came to the “new world”, and spread this totally new religion where no one that followed his teachings could possibly be aware of i for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Then, hundreds of years later, Joseph Smith was suddenly given a pair of gold glasses by an Angel, was handed a book of gold, translated it into the Book of Mormon", and this book changed everything that “Christianity” had ever been. Of course, no one but Joseph Smith ever saw this book, or the glasses.

As i said, they are not a Christian Church by any normal meaning of that term. BUT, they do put into daily practice some things that all Christians should be doing.
 
I couldn’t download…

The other context St. Thomas is also referring to is that in Jesus we are being redeemed from sin.

St. Peter in 2Peter1:4 is very clear about the meaning that it is through grace, freely given, that we are partakers in the Divinity of Christ.

We are never to become gods…and thinking so violates the truth of Who God is.
 
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