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rcwitness
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I’m sorry, I meant to say the Orthodox Churches.
Does the catholic church accept the orthodox churches real presence?
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twf
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The fact that your wife and other Orthodox say that doesn’t make it true. I’ve had this discussion with a cousin of mine who is a convert to Orthodoxy from Protestantism. After a careful study of Catholicism, and his former experience as a Protestant, he absolutely rejects the “two sides of the same coin” theory. Yes, when it comes to high church, traditional Protestants (Anglicans, Lutherans, perhaps Methodists and Presbyterians) much was inherited from Latin Catholicism in terms of theological language and constructs…but the substance of what they actually believe is often at complete odds with both Catholicism and Orthodoxy. If you’re looking at Evangelicalism or Pentecostalism, I would reject the claim that even the common language / constructs are there. I have attended Orthodox Divine Liturgies. Orthodox relatives have attended Catholic Masses with me. In both cases, we adored the same Eucharistic Lord… an action, in either context - Catholic or Orthodox - that many Evangelical relatives of mine would not only fail to understand but would likely condemn as idolatry. Theological constructs and language break down when it comes to the true substance of faith which is lived by believers…and at least my Orthodox relatives agree with me 100% that Protestantism is foreign to both of our faiths.
Take Theosis / Deification, the Theotokos / Mother of God, the sacraments / mysteries, the abiding presence of the Euachristic Lord, the sacrifice of the altar… yes Catholics and Orthodox understand and express these mysteries of faith differently, but at the end of the day many of us believe the underlining reality is one and the same, whether Catholic or Orthodox - realities that Protestantism (at least of the Evangelical / Pentecostal variety) don’t even register on their radars. Theosis / Deification? No concept at all. The Theotokos / Mother of God? A woman briefly mentioned once a year at Christmas with stern warnings not to dwell on her too long. The sacraments - what’s that? Real Presence - what are you talking about? I am able to share so much of my faith with my Orthodox relatives in a way i never have been able to with my Evangelical relatives… the very concept of theosis, the very concept of a sacrament, the very concept of Mary as Mother of God, the very concept of the Euccharist simply don’t exist in any form whatsoever. I just find the whole two sides of the same coin argument beyond silly…its just anti-Catholic rhetoric.
Take Theosis / Deification, the Theotokos / Mother of God, the sacraments / mysteries, the abiding presence of the Euachristic Lord, the sacrifice of the altar… yes Catholics and Orthodox understand and express these mysteries of faith differently, but at the end of the day many of us believe the underlining reality is one and the same, whether Catholic or Orthodox - realities that Protestantism (at least of the Evangelical / Pentecostal variety) don’t even register on their radars. Theosis / Deification? No concept at all. The Theotokos / Mother of God? A woman briefly mentioned once a year at Christmas with stern warnings not to dwell on her too long. The sacraments - what’s that? Real Presence - what are you talking about? I am able to share so much of my faith with my Orthodox relatives in a way i never have been able to with my Evangelical relatives… the very concept of theosis, the very concept of a sacrament, the very concept of Mary as Mother of God, the very concept of the Euccharist simply don’t exist in any form whatsoever. I just find the whole two sides of the same coin argument beyond silly…its just anti-Catholic rhetoric.
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rcwitness
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The “Two Sided Coin” or “Two Lungs” expression is in regards to the Eastern and Western Catholic Churches. I don’t think it is used with the Orthodox or Protestant churches.
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twf
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No, but I provided my shared experience with Orthodox relatives. I would find it surprising that a Byzantine Catholic would see any merit to the claim that Latin Catholicism and heretical Protestantism are “two sides of the same coin”. I have never seen an Orthodox Christian who understands Catholicism, beyond superficial rhetoric, make the claim… the Orthodox who do understand Catholicism, such as my relatives, make so such claims. Catholics bend over backwards to emphasize our common ground with Orthodoxy…many (not all) Orthodox bend over backwards to emphasize how completely and utterly alien Catholicism is…
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twf
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Catholics use the “Two lungs” expression to emphasize the mutually enriching synergy that we believe should exist between East and West. Many Orthodox do not reciprocate this view. The “two sided coin” expression is used by some Orthodox to express the belief that Catholicism is a heretical system that is far closer to Protestantism than it is to Orthodoxy. Not all Orthodox Christians subscribe to this view and I have never come across an Orthodox Christian who had a deep understanding of Catholicism who subscribed to this view.
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twf
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Though I shouldn’t have used the term “silly” - that wasn’t fair. I just think it is an argument without objective merit if one truly understands Catholicism and/or the various strains of Protestantism.
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Expatreprocedit
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I would not call Protestantism and Catholicism “two sides of the same coin”; I know some Orthos who say things like that, and I think it is not well-considered. It is true, however, that by virtue of the fact that Protestantism emerged from the western church, that both Protestantism and Western Catholicism share some theological presuppositions: an overemphasis on the consequences of the Fall, and on the juridical nature of the Redemption. I would submit it is also true that the East avoided some of the dichotomies that plagued the West (for example, transubstantiation vs. only a symbolic presence in the Eucharist). In short, Luther both reacted against the decadent scholasticism of his day, and he inherited some of it too, especially it’s nominalistic epistemology, which were never a problem in the East.
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twf
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Thanks. I appreciate your response. Yes, there will be certain similarities in that sense, though it’s difficult to paint Protestantism with one brush (especially with 500 years of evolution and further splintering). Take the Salvation Army- they are a Protestant denomination that doesn’t even practice baptism nor communion. Can any honest person really argue that Catholics have more in common with them than with Orthodoxy? I can give the argument much more credence if we are limiting the discussion to traditional Anglicanism and Lutheranism.
As I noted earlier, there are many core tenants of the faith that Catholics and Orthodox share, even if they are expressed quite differently. We both adore the Eucharistic Lord and trust that His sacrifice is offered to the Father at each liturgy. We both love and seek the intercession of the Mother of God. We both honour and invoke the saints. We both obey bishops whom we believe to be the true successors of the apostles. The list goes on… My Evangelical relatives can’t even comprehend these concepts. Sure, I have to adjust my “language” when discussing them with my Orthodox relatives, but the concepts, the shared realities resonate once the theological constructs are stripped away.
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twf
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Fair enough. I apologize for assuming you were defending the argument. As I said in my previous post above, I can acknowledge that there is merit to it when looking at say traditional Anglicanism and Lutheranism. When you start to consider non-sacramental, non-liturgical sects, I become much more skeptical. For example, Catholics and Salvationists both use the term “justification”, though we understand it differently, but is that really more important than the fact that CAtholics and Orthodox both receive the Eucharistic Lord while Salvationists don’t even practice any form of communion?
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prodromos
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No, it is a uniquely Western phenomenon.
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Contarini
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I believe that Eastern Catholic canon law is different and does allow attendance at an Orthodox church to substitute for attendance at a Catholic church. But I may be wrong.
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Peter_J
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Hi all. I’m coming in late to this thread, but it seems to me that the question requires far less discussion than we have here. Actually just one word, I.e. Yes. (Or am I missing something?)
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rcwitness
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I think you are correct. But it opened the door to other questions, like what the Orthodox position is regarding the Catholic Sacraments and orders.
Not sure they are able to give as difinitive or universal answer an as the Catholic Church.
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Peter_J
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I don’t think I’m capable of answering that one way or the other. But let me just say that I don’t know that it would be helpful if they did – just like I don’t see that the definitive Catholic declaration of Anglican orders as “null and void” has helped matters.
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Peter_J
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See discussions about the ordination of Anglican priests and bishops by Old Catholic bishops.
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Kosta
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We have this little maxim that His Eminence Kallistos of Diokleia in his book The Orthodox Church coined: “We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not.” We leave it at that, because that’s all the Church needs to say.
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commenter
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Originally Posted by rcwitness View Post
That’s true, but quite a different situation. Protestantism did not split from the West only, but nearly equally from the East, no?
So one might say the Reformation was a split “only from the West”, if you focus only on geography. But really the Reformers were splitting from the Catholic-and-Orthodox mostly common historic theology. Protestants with few exceptions chose not to become EO in the 1500s, or since. That option was available, and rejected. So you could say the split went across the board, East and West.
That’s true, but quite a different situation. Protestantism did not split from the West only, but nearly equally from the East, no?
Other CAF threads on Lutheranism provide historical documentation about the early efforts of Lutherans to “reach out” to EO. They sent representatives to Constantinople. The patriarch examined the tenets of Lutheranism, and said this is not compatible with EO. Over the centuries, EO and Protestantism still have not found much common ground, especially with Calvinist Protestantism. They are still split.
So one might say the Reformation was a split “only from the West”, if you focus only on geography. But really the Reformers were splitting from the Catholic-and-Orthodox mostly common historic theology. Protestants with few exceptions chose not to become EO in the 1500s, or since. That option was available, and rejected. So you could say the split went across the board, East and West.
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Peter_J
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Yes, certainly.
In a similar vein, I could point out that e.g. Roman Catholics chose not to become Calvinists … so does that mean that Roman Catholics split from Calvinism?
P.S. Just personally, I don’t think I’ve even heard the “Protestantism did not split from the West only, but nearly equally from the East” claim except here.
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