Does the Catholic Church actually teach that Hell cannot be empty?

[St.Eric]

thistle:

I would agree that the Church has no doctrine regarding the population of Hell but certainly nobody could conceivably think Hell is empty.
Yes only God knows the state of our soul at time of death but I think its a good bet, for example, that if someone murders a person during a bank robbery and is immediately killed by police that the murderer could not be in a state of grace when he was killed and would therefore go to hell.

That is assuming that the robber had full use of his mental faculties and gave full consent to the act. If his mental faculties and will were dimished to a point where he could not give full willful consnet to the act, then he would not have been guilty of a mortal sin and therefore could still possibly die in a statet of grace. Final answer: Only God knows the state of our soul at the moment of death.

 

[thistle]

St.Eric:

That is assuming that the robber had full use of his mental faculties and gave full consent to the act. If his mental faculties and will were dimished to a point where he could not give full willful consnet to the act, then he would not have been guilty of a mortal sin and therefore could still possibly die in a statet of grace. Final answer: Only God knows the state of our soul at the moment of death.

Give me a break. I would say 99% of criminals in the world know what they are doing and that it is wrong.
Hell is full of both criminals and people who have rejected God.
Keeping saying only God knows the state of our soul at death (which is true) is somehow trying to imply Hell might be empty which is rubbish.

 

[frogman80]

I realize the OP is asking if the Church has a formal doctrine on “Hell cannot be empty”… I thought this article would shed some light on the subject anyway:

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=795

This article is basically about neo-universalism… asserting that all men end up in heaven. The article does go on to say that we are not in the clear to assert hell is empty (The OP does not hold the belief that hell is empty, but he does say we may have the freedom to believe this… and that is not true.)

The Church may not state a particular person is in Hell… but it does teach that there are people in Hell. Hope this helps.

 

[St.Eric]

thistle:

Give me a break. I would say 99% of criminals in the world know what they are doing and that it is wrong.
Hell is full of both criminals and people who have rejected God.
Keeping saying only God knows the state of our soul at death (which is true) is somehow trying to imply Hell might be empty which is rubbish.

I am neither saying that Hell is empty or that criminals for the most part don’t know what they are doing. I work in a state prison system so I am well aware that the majority of them choose freely to do what they did. My point was that it is pretty difficult to make a blanket statement that is always true. Jeffrey Dahmer reportedly repented and asked God for forgiveness before he died in prison. So, who knows? I beleive hell is quite full and I know I myself don’t wish to go there!

 

[thistle]

St.Eric:

I am neither saying that Hell is empty or that criminals for the most part don’t know what they are doing. I work in a state prison system so I am well aware that the majority of them choose freely to do what they did. My point was that it is pretty difficult to make a blanket statement that is always true. Jeffrey Dahmer reportedly repented and asked God for forgiveness before he died in prison. So, who knows? I beleive hell is quite full and I know I myself don’t wish to go there!

My apologies. I thought you were implying that Hell might be empty. I do agree that some pretty bad people could repent but like you I’m sure there are lots of people in Hell and I certainly don’t want to join them either.

 

[TTM]

I tend to believe that, based on what Jesus (in Scriptures), Mary (at Fatima) and the Saints (throughout history) have seen and said, there are many souls in Hell and also that we Catholics must be vigilant also, lest we fall.

So.

Please everyone, wear the Brown Scapular and live a devout life. Thank God for Mother Mary!

TTM

 

[Shiphrae]

originally posted by DavidFilmer
Nobody can know for sure if s/he is presently in a State of Grace (for this would be the same thing as an absolute assurance of salvation)

I disagree. If we have confessed our sins and received absolution, we are in the state of grace. If we die in this state we are assured salvation.

“Does the Chruch teach that hell absolutely DOES have residents?”

I don’t believe so. However when Our Blessed Mother Mary appeared to the children in Fatima, she showed them a vision of hell. There were residents there. On the other hand, it could have been only satan and the fallen angels.

Peace of Christ,
Shiphrae

 

[thessalonian]

In “Crossing the threshold of Hope” JP II says Apokostasis cannot be held.

 

[thessalonian]

I disagree. If we have confessed our sins and received absolution, we are in the state of grace. If we die in this state we are assured salvation.

We can have a moral assurance, but do to our imperfection we cannot have an absolute assurance.

 

[Shiphrae]

originally posted by thessalonian
We can have a moral assurance, but do to our imperfection we cannot have an absolute assurance.

If we trust in God the way we should, we know when we are in the state of grace and therefore we know that we will be saved. Human imperfection has nothing to do with it. God knows and understands our humanity.

Peace in Christ,
Shiphrae

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus said that in Hell there would be “weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Anyone who believes that no one will be in Hell simply doesn’t believe Jesus who said about the Kingdom of Heaven “Few there are that will find it”.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Simply stated, if hell can be emptied, it’s not hell.
Deacon Ed B

 

[chaz0426]

There is an active thread on this forum titled Apokatastasis which started out discussing the salvation philosophy of a certain Catholic theologian, but has broadened to a general discussion of the population of hell. I feel the thread has gone somewhat off-topic, but in a manner that may interest more people. So I decided to open a new thread on this particular issue.

So the question is: Does the Catholic Church actually teach that Hell CANNOT be empty?

I say the Church teaches no such thing (although I believe hell is quote crowded - but I think that is my own personal opinion, and NOT Church doctrine).

It will be assumed that everyone understands that the Catholic Church categorically teaches the following dogmas:

• Hell absolutely DOES exist.
• Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to hell.
• If you go to hell, you remain there for ALL eternity.

It is further understood that the Catholic Church teaches the following doctrine:

• Nobody can know for sure if s/he is presently in a State of Grace (for this would be the same thing as an absolute assurance of salvation)

So I submit that, if nobody can be sure s/he is in a State of Grace, then it stands to reason that nobody can be sure s/he is NOT in a State of Grace. For a Christian, being “not in a State of Grace” is the same as being in a state of mortal sin. So, just as a Christian cannot be sure s/he is in a State of Grace, likewise no Christian can be sure if s/he is in a state of mortal sin.

I concede that the Church has a general test of the mortal nature of sin (ie: a serious matter, awareness of the serous nature of the sin at the time, freewill consent to commit the sin), and a person who acts in any way according to that definition is fully and truly guilty of mortal sin (and this person will be condemned to hell for all eternity if s/he dies unrepentant). But I submit that the Church cannot say (and that She does not even claim the competence to say) whether any particular sin of any particular person truly meets all the criteria of mortality. So the Church cannot say (by Her own admitted limitations) that any particular person actually IS in a state of mortal sin. She can maintain that it is POSSIBLE that somebody somewhere is in a state of mortal sin, but She cannot say that any particular and specific person actually IS in a state of mortal sin.

So I submit that it is POSSIBLE under orthodox Catholic doctrine to suppose that NOBODY is specifically and actually in a state of mortal sin at this very moment (or any/all moments).

If the Church cannot say for sure that anyone is actually in a state of mortal sin, She cannot say for sure that anyone actually dies in a state of mortal sin.

The only (known) way to go to hell is to die in a state of mortal sin. But, if the Church cannot say that anyone actually dies in a state of mortal sin, the Church also cannot say that anyone is actually in hell.

So I submit that it is perfectly Catholic and orthodox to suppose that hell does exist, and anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin does go there and can never leave, but that hell could actually be empty, and nobody is actually in hell.

Some may claim that hell has at least one resident - namely Judas Iscariot (based on Our Lord’s words that “it would be better for that man had he never been born.”) But many theologians would not regard Our Lord’s words in this dialogue to be a condemnation to hell. After all, Judas took his own life in SORROW for what he had done (repentance). And, although suicide MAY be a mortal sin, the Church teaches that it MIGHT NOT be mortal because the mental disposition of the person may not allow for rational freewill consent to the sinful nature of the act (and, without informed freewill consent, the sin cannot be regarded as mortal). So even Judas may not be assumed to be in hell.

Given these points, does anyone wish to advance a position that the Church teaches that hell CANNOT be empty?

Just to clarify - the question is NOT, “Does the Church teach that hell MIGHT have residents?” because the answer to this question is obvious (‘yes’). The question is, “Does the Chruch teach that hell absolutely DOES have residents?”

I say the Church teaches no such thing, and has never taught any such thing (though I personally believe it to be true).

Thats a very interesting conjecture. I just finished a college course in philosophy last semester that is one of the soundest natural philosophical arguments I’ve seen someone come up with outside of class. Applause

Your actually right in the sense of there is no absolute guarantee that there is a human soul in hell for certain. But unfortunately mathematics can’t back up your argument. Out of the billions and billions of people who have died, is it mathematically sound to say no one is in hell. No, but it is absolutely possible that statement is right. There are a big number of scenarios that could create that situation but the odds are about 10 *10^ -12 (or about 0.0000000000001 chance) because of the billions perhaps hundred billion people who have lived on earth and died. That odds actually grow smaller as more people live.

But your argument is sound and you are right that the Church can’t say THERE is people in hell like they can say THERE is a sun in the sky (hypothetically assuming on the context that the sun IS indeed the sun and can rule out arguments such as it’s an illusion to human eyes or not real ect since it is only witnessed through 2 of our 5 senses.). because that would be 0% but just like infinite can’t be a number, it also can’t reach 0 even as close as it gets to it.

A counter argument that is very simple, why would you gamble your state of grace given the odds. Wouldn’t it be better to live a finite number of years of a restricted life so to say and enjoy eternal happiness than to live freely and happy and sin out of pleasure for a finite number of years and spend eternity in hell?

 

[Steadfast_love]

Does the Catholic Church actually teach that Hell cannot be empty?

On the contrary, the Catechism explicitly says that it is possible that all men will be saved.
1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).

 

[Nullasalus]

I do not have a reference onhand, but Fr. John Neuhaus (Of First Things notoriety) has said “We may pray that hell is empty.” Not exactly a papal pronouncement, but make of that what you will.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Read Matthews gospel Chapter 25. That will give you the answer. Satan would like nothing more than to have people believe that there would be no humans in hell. He is after all, the father of lies. Don’t believe this one.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why don’t people believe Jesus when he says “There WILL be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”?

Jesus doesn’t lie.

If Jesus says “there WILL”–who can dispute it?

 

[Steadfast_love]

Why don’t people believe Jesus when he says “There WILL be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”?

Jesus doesn’t lie.

If Jesus says “there WILL”–who can dispute it?

Ah, but this question is about the very special case where there are exactly zero people on his left.

If Jesus somehow manages to fufill his Father’s wish to rescue all people and answer his mother’s prayer to save all sinners he won’t be hindered by his description of the Last Judgement-- on the contrary, he’ll still be telling the truth. Look closely at the special case where goats on left = zero.

Then he will say to those on his left (i.e. he will say it to no one) "Depart from me…

Then they (i.e. no one) also will answer "Lord, when did we see the hungry…

Then he will answer them (i.e.no one) “Truely I say to you…”

And they (i.e. no one) will go away into eternal punishment, but the rightious (i.e. everyone) will go into eternal life.

That there will be zero people in hell is tremendously unlikely in my personal opinion but the belief is not forbidden by the Magisterium nor is it beyond God’s power, as the Catechism says:
1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).

Disclaimer: Rebuke me with an official church teaching and I’ll recant asap! :bowdown: Until then, me and the Church will continue to pray that “no one should be lost.”

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Disclaimer: Rebuke me with an official church teaching and I’ll recant asap! :bowdown: Until then, me and the Church will continue to pray that “no one should be lost.”

And this is what we are all to do. I wish hell on no one.
However:

Isaiah 66:24 **“They shall go out and see the corpses of the men who rebelled against me; Their worm shall not die, nor their fire be extinguished; and they shall be abhorrent to all mankind.” **

Luke 16:25 (Abraham speaking to the rich man who denied food to Lazarus ) **“Between you and us, there is fixed a great abyss, so that those who might wish to cross from here to you cannot do so, nor can anyone cross from your side to us.”
**
These are just 2 of 18 references to hell in the **Doctrinal Index **in the back of my Bible. Use yours.

I assume you have a Catechism of the Catholic Church. The following paragraphs give the Churches teaching on hell. 1033 - 1037 & 1861

These are the references for the OFFICIAL CHURCH TEACHING. But please do not stop praying for the salvation of souls.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Steadfast_love]

These are just 2 of 18 references to hell in the **Doctrinal Index **in the back of my Bible. Use yours.

Thanks but I don’t have the authority to turn Bible verses into official church teaching (which is what this thread is asking for).

I assume you have a Catechism of the Catholic Church. The following paragraphs give the Churches teaching on hell. 1033 - 1037 & 1861

Which paragraph teaches that Hell can not be empty?

1033 (What hell is)
1034 (Christ’s participation)
1035 (The teaching of the Church)
1036 (The threat of hell is an urgent call to conversion)
1037 (We should pray that all are saved. God hasn’t predestined anyone to hell. Last minute conversions are possible. The Church is working towards saving everyone.)

1861 (We can not judge that a particular person is in hell, even though we can judge that their actions are grave offenses.)

Since none of the paragraphs teach that hell cannot be empty, I submit to the teaching in paragraph 1058, which is to say I believe that the salvation of all men is “possible.” I personally don’t understand how it’s possible, but the hopeful assurances in 1037 (God desires the salvation of all, the Church is working towards that goal, hope is only lost if a sinner willfully persists until the end) and 1861 (even though we can judge that an act is a grave offense, we must entrust judgement of souls to God) means that I can in good conscience pray and hope that none are lost.