Does the Catholic Church actually teach that Hell cannot be empty?

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Thanks but I don’t have the authority to turn Bible verses into official church teaching (which is what this thread is asking for).
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And neither do I. These are the verses on which the Church bases its teachings about hell.

To say that hell will be empty, is to give a false hope or belief to some misguided soul that could lead to drastic consequences for that individual and for the one who placed that false notion in their heads.

One other verse for you to contemplate is found in Matthews gospel, Chapter 25 in speaking of the last judgment. These are the words of Jesus himself after he spoke to those going to heaven. Now are the words for those going to hell.

**Matt. 24: 41–46 "Then he will say to those on his left: Out of my sight, you condemned, into that everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels!!. I was hungry and you gave me no food. I was thirsty and you gave me no drink. I was away from home and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing. I was ill and in prison and you did not come to comfort me. Then they in turn will ask: “Lord when did we see you hungry or thirsty or away from home or naked or ill or in prison and not attend you in your needs?” He will answer them: "I assure you, as often as you neglected to do it to one of these least ones, you neglected to do it to me. These will go off to eternal punishment and the just to eternal life . "

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Steadfast_love]

To say that hell will be empty , is to give a false hope or belief to some misguided soul that could lead to drastic consequences for that individual and for the one who placed that false notion in their heads.

No one in this thread has argued that Hell will be empty for certain. The question is: is it possible that Hell will be empty?

CCC 1037, 1058, and 1861 offer hope that it is possible.

Mat24 does not address how many people will be on his left. Remember that our Lord also said “let whoever is without sin cast the first stone” and since there was no one in the crowd without sin, there was no one to cast the first stone. The same thing could possibly happen in the final judgment. No one on his left >> no one is rebuked >> no one goes to hell.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Matt. 24: 41–46 "Then he will say to those on his left: Out of my sight, you condemned, into that everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels!!.

No one in this thread has argued that Hell will be empty for certain. The question is: is it possible that Hell will be empty?
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Based on the above quotation from Matthew’s gospel, with what Jesus said, I would have to reach the conclusion that hell will not be empty. Just because it does not say how many there are, does not mean there are none.

This does not mean that we should not pray for the conversion of sinners. We should. That is one of the main tasks of us here as part of the Church Militant.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Steadfast_love]

Based on the above quotation from Matthew’s gospel, with what Jesus said, I would have to reach the conclusion that hell will not be empty. Just because it does not say how many there are, does not mean there are none.

It does not, as far as I can tell, exclude the possibility that hell is empty.

If I had to argue from sola scriptura I’d go for Mt7:13-14. It says that many will enter hell but only a few will enter heaven. Not only does that imply that there are people in hell, it allows us to say that there will be least N+1 people in hell (where N is the number of can. Saints). That puts the number of damned into the thousands.

But I don’t think my ability to interpret scripture is better than the Church so still hope for the “possibility” mentioned by the Catechism.

This does not mean that we should not pray for the conversion of sinners. We should. That is one of the main tasks of us here as part of the Church Militant.

I agree!

 

[bbentrup]

When interpreting scripture, as many have done in this thread, we have to remember that we have to be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm and what God wanted to reveal to us. For example, in the story of the sheep and the goats, I would say that as a parable Jeus is warning those with him (and us as well) that there is real danger of going to hell. Jesus was not using that story to definitive tell us about the number or identity of the people in hell as that is really none of our business. The warning Jesus gives is the real truth that we can take from this story - anything else is just speculation. Therefore, it is impudent to say that there are definitely persons in hell besides the fallen angels. SteadfastLove is correct to cling to the Catechism teaching - the hope given there is very inspirational. It can help the otherwise forlorn soul dare to lift up his eyes to God and trust in the Lord. Who are we to take that hope from him?

All of that said, it is my personal belief that a vast number of people are indeed in hell for obvious reasons. This is sad and to be hoped against, but the biblical evidence is pretty weighty on the topic. I, too, echo the call resounded here to pray for all souls. Peace.

 

[steve_b]

There is an active thread on this forum titled Apokatastasis which started out discussing the salvation philosophy of a certain Catholic theologian, but has broadened to a general discussion of the population of hell. I feel the thread has gone somewhat off-topic, but in a manner that may interest more people. So I decided to open a new thread on this particular issue.

So the question is: Does the Catholic Church actually teach that Hell CANNOT be empty?

I say the Church teaches no such thing (although I believe hell is quote crowded - but I think that is my own personal opinion, and NOT Church doctrine).

It will be assumed that everyone understands that the Catholic Church categorically teaches the following dogmas:

• Hell absolutely DOES exist.
• Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to hell.
• If you go to hell, you remain there for ALL eternity.
  It is further understood that the Catholic Church teaches the following doctrine:
• Nobody can know for sure if s/he is presently in a State of Grace (for this would be the same thing as an absolute assurance of salvation)
  So I submit that, if nobody can be sure s/he is in a State of Grace, then it stands to reason that nobody can be sure s/he is NOT in a State of Grace. For a Christian, being “not in a State of Grace” is the same as being in a state of mortal sin. So, just as a Christian cannot be sure s/he is in a State of Grace, likewise no Christian can be sure if s/he is in a state of mortal sin.

I concede that the Church has a general test of the mortal nature of sin (ie: a serious matter, awareness of the serous nature of the sin at the time, freewill consent to commit the sin), and a person who acts in any way according to that definition is fully and truly guilty of mortal sin (and this person will be condemned to hell for all eternity if s/he dies unrepentant). But I submit that the Church cannot say (and that She does not even claim the competence to say) whether any particular sin of any particular person truly meets all the criteria of mortality. So the Church cannot say (by Her own admitted limitations) that any particular person actually IS in a state of mortal sin. She can maintain that it is POSSIBLE that somebody somewhere is in a state of mortal sin, but She cannot say that any particular and specific person actually IS in a state of mortal sin.

So I submit that it is POSSIBLE under orthodox Catholic doctrine to suppose that NOBODY is specifically and actually in a state of mortal sin at this very moment (or any/all moments).

If the Church cannot say for sure that anyone is actually in a state of mortal sin, She cannot say for sure that anyone actually dies in a state of mortal sin.

The only (known) way to go to hell is to die in a state of mortal sin. But, if the Church cannot say that anyone actually dies in a state of mortal sin, the Church also cannot say that anyone is actually in hell.

So I submit that it is perfectly Catholic and orthodox to suppose that hell does exist, and anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin does go there and can never leave, but that hell could actually be empty, and nobody is actually in hell.

Some may claim that hell has at least one resident - namely Judas Iscariot (based on Our Lord’s words that “it would be better for that man had he never been born.”) But many theologians would not regard Our Lord’s words in this dialogue to be a condemnation to hell. After all, Judas took his own life in SORROW for what he had done (repentance). And, although suicide MAY be a mortal sin, the Church teaches that it MIGHT NOT be mortal because the mental disposition of the person may not allow for rational freewill consent to the sinful nature of the act (and, without informed freewill consent, the sin cannot be regarded as mortal). So even Judas may not be assumed to be in hell.

Given these points, does anyone wish to advance a position that the Church teaches that hell CANNOT be empty?

Just to clarify - the question is NOT, “Does the Church teach that hell MIGHT have residents?” because the answer to this question is obvious (‘yes’). The question is, “Does the Chruch teach that hell absolutely DOES have residents?”

I say the Church teaches no such thing, and has never taught any such thing (though I personally believe it to be true).

As I understand it, the Church makes no comment either way to hell’s occupants. Just that it exists, and the possibility for a soul to be thrown into it is absolutely real…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Do you think the devil would love for people to think that everyone made it to heaven and that all died in a state of grace?

Does “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” make sense if God is going to save everyone anyway?

People have been peddleing universal salvation for all time.

They’ve always been wrong!

 

[thistle]

The Church teaches that nobody is predestined to go to Hell but certainly does not teach that Hell might be empty.

Jesus himself makes it crystal clear that Hell is NOT empty.

Matt 7:13-14

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and **the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. **
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.”

 

[Aramis]

There is also the tradition inherited from the Book of Lilleth that Lucifer was cast in to 'the pit" (gehenna)…

While rabbinic judaism does not recognize the Book of Lilleth, some Jews do, still, to this day.

Further, there is the theologumenon that hell is simply non-corporeal existence outside heaven… in which case, no, it can’t be empty, at least not until the end of days, when the final judgement happens.

 

[Schola]

Hell might or might not have a huge population. But one thing we know is that Hell was not meant for people. It was for Satan and his fallen angels. Those who are in Hell have turned away from the face of God through mortal sin. The gates of Hell are wide open, anybody can walk out, but no one does, because being in Hell means you have rejected God.

 

[bilop]

Hell might or might not have a huge population. But one thing we know is that Hell was not meant for people. It was for Satan and his fallen angels. Those who are in Hell have turned away from the face of God through mortal sin. The gates of Hell are wide open, anybody can walk out, but no one does, because being in Hell means you have rejected God.

That’s not quite true.

While everyone in Hell has freely chosen to be there through unrepented mortal sin, once they are damned, there is no way out.

Once a soul is judged upon his death (the particular judgement) the outcome is irreversible. One sent to Heaven can not sin and lose salvation, one sent to purgatory is assured of eventually reaching Heaven, and one sent to Hell is there for all eternity.

There is now way to reverse Christ’s Judgement.

God Bless

 

[Schola]

That’s what I meant, because the people in Hell have rejected God. Even if the gates of Hell were wide open for anybody to walk out, no one would, because they turned away from God.

 

[Usagi]

That’s what I meant, because the people in Hell have rejected God. Even if the gates of Hell were wide open for anybody to walk out, no one would, because they turned away from God.

I’ve seen it put even more strikingly, as “The gates of hell are locked from the inside.”

Of course, these are merely images and have no doctrinal weight, but they do nicely illustrate the idea that the damned reject God, rather than the other way around.

Usagi

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

If we really reflect on what Jesus said in the gospels, how could you think that hell could possibly be empty. I don’t think he got it wrong, do you?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[jmcrae]

It is further understood that the Catholic Church teaches the following doctrine:

* Nobody can know for sure if s/he is presently in a State of Grace (for this would be the same thing as an absolute assurance of salvation)

I would correct this and say that none of us can predict with absolute certainty what our state of soul will be, at the moment of death.

Obviously, we can know what our present state is; otherwise, how would we know whether we need to go to Confession, or not?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

It is further understood that the Catholic Church teaches the following doctrine:

• Nobody can know for sure if s/he is presently in a State of Grace (for this would be the same thing as an absolute assurance of salvation) .

Wow. I have very many years of formal Catholic Education, including 8 years (6 in college) in the seminary, 2 additional years at a Catholic University and 4 years formation for the diaconate. Please tell me. What did I miss? I say that because in all my formal CATHOLIC education, such a thing has never been taught to me. In fact quite the opposite. What did I miss?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Steadfast_love]

If we really reflect on what Jesus said in the gospels, how could you think that hell could possibly be empty. I don’t think he got it wrong, do you?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

No one here has even suggested that Jesus is wrong. The question is what does the Church teach officialy?

CCC 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).

If you can find official Church teaching that says something more definitive than “it is possible” please post it and win.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

No one here has even suggested that Jesus is wrong. The question is what does the Church teach officialy?

CCC 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: “Lord, let me never be parted from you.” If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God “desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him “all things are possible” (Mt 19:26).

If you can find official Church teaching that says something more definitive than “it is possible” please post it and win.

I think the teachings of Jesus in the gospel are sufficient to reach the proper conclusion.

While the Church says she prays as you have quoted above, that is not to say that no one is not condemned to hell . (note double negative) The fact that there would be people in hell, I think is something so obvious, that no official teaching is necessary. Simply consider the words of Jesus in the 25th chapter of Matthew’s gospel in speaking of the last judgment. That says it all.
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Steadfast_love]

Aha! Look what I found:

““We’re not bound to believe that anybody’s there (in hell)”
–Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor Speaks of His Hope for Universal Salvation

 

[Usagi]

Aha! Look what I found:

““We’re not bound to believe that anybody’s there (in hell)”
–Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor Speaks of His Hope for Universal Salvation

Of course, the Cardinal’s thinking on that point could easily be out of line with Church teaching. An individual prelate (even a pope, in his private opinions) can always be heretical on some point or other.

It is, of course, against the teaching of the Church to state categorically that all people will be saved, no matter what. I don’t think anyone here is arguing that, but some folks have reacted to the possibility of that argument’s appearance.

The Church teaches the universal salvific will of God, as against the idea of predestination to Hell, and that all people are given the grace necessary for salvation if they will but receive it. So it is theoretically possible that no human being could go to hell, just as it is theoretically possible that Adam and Eve could have avoided their sin and changed the entire history of humanity’s relations with God.

On the other hand, as several folks have pointed out, the Scriptural warnings of hell (as well as private revelations, though of course we are not obliged to give credence to the latter) depict a populated hell, and even strongly suggest that there will be more damned than saints … perhaps far more.

It seems to me that I have seen a (negative) Church statement on the “hope that hell is empty,” perhaps in response to a theologian who advanced that concept. I don’t know where I saw that, though.

I suspect the danger is that “hope that hell is empty” can easily cross the line into “believe that hell is empty,” or even “believe that hell must be empty,” which is obvious heresy.

Usagi