Does the Catholic Church Claim to Know Too Much?

[AquinasXVI]

Reen:

You said that the handing of the keys to Peter as we practice it was not what Christ intended. I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Please provide your full interpretation of the handing of the keys and the role of Peter.

in XT.

 

[Sam88]

The Iambic Pen:

To become a Catholic, I would have to accept every doctrine of the Church. Until I am prepared to do so, I am in the uncomfortable situation of knowing Protestantism does not have a leg to stand on, but also not knowing if the Catholic Church really has the authority it says it has. Quite confusing.

At one point in my life, I came to the realization that private interpretation was a weak foundation and authority a logical necessity. As a convert to Catholicism, I did not and could not consider each of the doctrines of the church and independently decide if I agreed based on biblical evidence, experience, and reason. In fact, there are teachings of the church that I do not find myself in complete agreement with intellectually.

However, since I have accepted the AUTHORITY of the church, the logical conclusion is that when I seem to find myself in disagreement with church teaching, that either 1. I am wrong or 2. I do not correctly or fully understand the church teaching, or both!

As I continue to study, I find that over time my mind more closely conforms to the teaching of the church. As I learn, either problem#1 or problem#2 is diminished.

This is how I can “accept every doctrine of the Church”, even though I cannot fully even understand every doctrine, much less independently weigh the evidence for and against each one.

The non-Catholic denomination I left behind is filled with many wonderful and sincere Christians whom I respect. I now pray however that they and the OP also receive the gift of being in communion with the authentic interpreter of Sacred Tradition.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

However nuanced by Apologists - whatever appeals
are made to Tradition
…to me, and to millions of others - simply incredible,
in terms of the gospel, as written, and the letters of St. Paul.

That is why obedience is surely one of the most beautiful virtues taught by the Church. Do you think Mary told Gabriel that she’d be the mother of God…but she wanted it in writing, detailed to the letter? Nope, she put her trust in God and said, “Let it be done to me according to your Word.”

Likewise, we put our trust in God that He has revealed Himself to us through Jesus Christ and Christ gave authority to His Church, so much so that the gates of Hell will never prevail against it.

The Church evangelized much of the known world without hardly a scrap of Scripture. She didn’t hand out Bibles and say, “Here, read it and believe” but rather men with Apostolic authority preached the Word as found in both Sacred Tradition and later written down in Holy Scripture.

There was no Bible as we know it today with which to be the “final authority” that protestants ascribe to it. The Scriptures were written by the Church, they were canonized by the Church, and they were promulgated, protected, copied and perserved by the Church.

Then, come the “Reformers” who dare to spit in the face of the Church and uphold the Bible, corrupted nonetheless, as the sole rule of faith. What brazen insolence! What a display of vainglory!

To you, I mean nothing personal, but in all honesty you must ask yourself this question-How are you so sure that your personal interpretation of the Bible is right, and thus you have the infallible authority to declare something which the Church teaches as false?

 

[reen12]

quote: ComradeAndrei

There was no Bible as we know it today with which to be the “final authority” that protestants ascribe to it.

Perhaps that was the case - because the gospel was
simple and simply preached. Following the commands
of Christ is very difficult, but the gospel is simple.

To the questions that have been posed to me:

I look to no Church to be infallible. Not when the
one who claims infallibility commands belief in:
indulgences, treasury of grace, the dogma of the
Assumption, sacraments that ‘dispense’ grace,
infallibility, purgatory, Mediatrix…

The message: Jesus saves, take and eat, be baptized,
“those who hear the word and follow it are My mother
and my brother…” the Great Commandment, the
New Commandment…the Ten Commandments are
simple realities for single-hearted people.
Difficult in the doing, but not in comprehending.

So, what do I look to the Church for?

Baptism: “Go into the whole world…baptizing in the
name of…”

The Eucharist…“Take and eat…This* is* My Body…”

Calling human beings to repent, and believe in the
good news: what good news? Jesus saves, through
faith by grace. “Repent, and believe in the good news.”

Calling human beings to heed His commands…
clearly stated, in Scripture.

To give her considered thought on matters of morality…
where the application of “simple realities” becomes
complex: bioethics, end of life concerns, abortion

I’ve benefitted from participation in this thread, in this
way:
I find that I do look to the Church for guidance in
complex moral areas. [Her glory, in this century,
is likely to remain her steadfast opposition to abortion.]

I do look to the Protestant world, for a clear understanding
of Christ’s work, in our salvation. For I think that they
often have a clearer understanding of St. Paul:

We are saved by faith, through grace and repentance,
and that our “works” do not avail one iota toward our salvation…
but failing to do these things is failing to follow Christ’s commands.

[Forgive your enemies…if a man demands
your cloak, give him your coat, as well*…if struck on
the right cheek, offer your left cheek*…et.al.]*
Not a difference in emphasis, but a difference, doctrinally.

As to the wrangling over what is “effected” in baptism -
whether we are wounded or totally depraved, is of little
import, when it comes to our actual salvation. Christ
died for my personal sins…and that is enough to know,
til eternity.

It matters little, what I am called in this world
‘cafeteria Catholic!’
but it will matter, eternally, what Christ calls me…
saved…or lost.

I take the gates of hell shall not prevail, the Keys,
binding and loosing - all in the context of the conveying
of the good news of our salvation:

We are saved by faith, through grace and repentance.
Go, baptize…Take and eat, this is My body.

God will use imperfect instruments to convey this
news…not infallible ones.

reen12

 

[ComradeAndrei]

You danced around the question, how do you KNOW that YOU are right?

I look to no Church to be infallible. Not when the
one who claims infallibility commands belief in:
indulgences, treasury of grace, the dogma of the
Assumption, sacraments that ‘dispense’ grace,
infallibility, purgatory, Mediatrix…

What is so wrong with these teachings? Do you have any real argument against them or do you just not like them?

Calling human beings to heed His commands…
clearly stated, in Scripture.

What are His commands? Seems like they are not so “clearly stated in Scripture” if there are thousands of protestant sects, plus pseudo-Christian sects, plus the Eastern Orthodox and of course the Catholic Church and each of them has a different take on exactly what His commands are.

I find that I do look to the Church for guidance in
complex moral areas. [Her glory, in this century,
is likely to remain her steadfast opposition to abortion.]

OK, but why would a Church that is right in complex moral issues somehow foolishly miss the mark on the basics? The Church’s teachings on the complex issues are based directly on Tradition and Scripture-on Jesus Christ Himself.

I do look to the Protestant world, for a clear understanding of Christ’s work, in our salvation. For I think that they often have a clearer understanding of St. Paul:

We are saved by faith, through grace and repentance,
and that our “works” do not avail one iota toward our salvation…
but failing to do these things is failing to follow Christ’s commands.

So, the Church you follow in complex issues just missed the boat on the teachings of St. Paul? You don’t understand the Church’s teaching on faith and works, it is not an “either/or” thing, it is a both/and.

No, we are not saved by our works w/o faith. This smacks of the Pelagian heresy that the Church condemned.

Neither are we saved by faith alone. The Church condemned this Protestant heresy as well.

We are saved by faith AND works, through the grace that God freely gives to us in baptism. Faith, without works, is dead. Note James 2:21-26.

It matters little, what I am called in this world
‘cafeteria Catholic!’
but it will matter, eternally, what Christ calls me…
saved…or lost.

Quite true, but I don’t think we come to the same conclusion.

As to the wrangling over what is “effected” in baptism -
whether we are wounded or totally depraved, is of little
import, when it comes to our actual salvation. Christ
died for my personal sins…and that is enough to know,
til eternity.

Actually, it matters quite a bit. Most people (dare I say all) who believed we are “totally depraved” fall into other errors, namely they have issues with the idea that God can actually bestow infallibility on a man or that He indeed established an infallible and visible Church on earth. This speculation also warps their perception on sin and redemption-subjects of major importance!

I take the gates of hell shall not prevail, the Keys,
binding and loosing - all in the context of the conveying
of the good news of our salvation:

We are saved by faith, through grace and repentance.
Go, baptize…Take and eat, this is My body.

That is nice, but again, where is your authority to decide such things?

God will use imperfect instruments to convey this
news…not infallible ones.

And what, convey an imperfect message? That God speaks to us, that fact alone, demands that there would be an infallible messenger and infallible teacher. He has deigned to bestow the grace of infallibility upon His Church and His Vicar on earth, the Pope.

No, the Pope is not impeccable, neither are some members of the Church Militant, but that does not imply that there must be no infallibility.

 

[Atreyu]

reen12:

Baptism: “Go into the whole world…baptizing in the
name of…”
What about, “He who hears you, hears me…”?

The Eucharist…“Take and eat…This* is* My Body…”
And is that literally His Body? If so, how do you know which Church is doing the Eucharist correctly?

I do look to the Protestant world, for a clear understanding
of Christ’s work, in our salvation. For I think that they
often have a clearer understanding of St. Paul:
Yet the Catholic Church does not ignore the words of St Paul. Rather she uses them to further her understanding and teaching and treats St Paul’s writing as equally valid to that of, for example, James. Do the Protestants have a clearer understanding of James? How about John 6 or 17?

We are saved by faith, through grace and repentance,
and that our “works” do not avail one iota toward our salvation…
but failing to do these things is failing to follow Christ’s commands.
But like the Rich Man, if you do not follow Christ’s commands then you’re stuffed, even if you believe in Him.

As to the wrangling over what is “effected” in baptism -
whether we are wounded or totally depraved, is of little
import, when it comes to our actual salvation. Christ
died for my personal sins…and that is enough to know,
til eternity.
Not really. We all agree that Christ died for our sins, but what do we need to do to receive this forgiveness? Simply say that I believe in Christ? Even the demons believe in Christ! If you do believe in Christ, you will follow His commands. He has chosen some other means for our sins to be forgiven: the Sacrament of confession (assuming the Catholic Church is right of course).

God will use imperfect instruments to convey this
news…not infallible ones.
Therefore by this reasoning, the Bible is imperfect and fallible. If the Bible can be infallible, then there is no reason why the Church cannot possibly be infallible. This is not proof that the Church is infallible; but if it’s possible for one (to be infallible), it’s possible for the other.

The bold bits are my responses and I cut out the bits I didn’t respond to.

 

[reen12]

quote: ComradeAndre

You danced around the question, how do you KNOW that YOU are right?

Ahhhh…that’s what it comes down to, huh?
The need for certainty…where I see certainty
cannot be had. For that, you see, would require
…infallibility - either my own or that of another.

I do not know if I am right. And, Comrade Andrei,
there are many things in this life, where certainty
cannot be had - and I both accept and live with that.

Along comes a group that says: We have certainty!
And I say: Good for you.

Best,

reen

 

[reen12]

As to: where does my authority come from?

In my experience, Catholics seem to frequently ask:

And where does your authority come from ??!! - as if
this were some kind of religious trump card !

If I were to tell you what I think about that “trump
card” I would be leaving the bounds of both civility and
charity.

The Church has the authority and therefore infallibility is
the case.

Good. Then continue to choose to accept:
indulgences, treasury of grace, the dogma of the
Assumption, sacraments that ‘dispense’ grace,
infallibility, purgatory, Mediatrix…

I’ll stand on the sidelines and watch with interest.
Who knows? Maybe Co-Redemptorix is next!

reen12

 

[Atreyu]

reen12:

Ahhhh…that’s what it comes down to, huh?
The need for certainty…where I see certainty
cannot be had. For that, you see, would require
…infallibility - either my own or that of another.

I do not know if I am right. And, Comrade Andrei,
there are many things in this life, where certainty
cannot be had - and I both accept and live with that.

Along comes a group that says: We have certainty!
And I say: Good for you.

Best,

reen

I agree. But what does it all come down to? Hope. I have hope in God, that He has given the world the means to come to know Him, and to have confidence that we are learning about Him. If this is true, then this is a great witness for the Catholic faith; in particular, infallibility.

 

[reen12]

quote: Atreyu

I agree. But what does it all come down to? Hope. I have hope in God, that He has given the world the means to come to know Him, and to have confidence that we are learning about Him. If this is true, then this is a great witness for the Catholic faith; in particular, infallibility.

I understand that one could hold this, Atreyu.

I am in hope that God has given me what I need to
know, for my salvation.

Best,

reen12

 

[Sherlock]

reen12:

Who knows? Maybe Co-Redemptorix is next!

reen12

What most who balk at this do not understand is that “co” in this usage (Latin, I believe) does not mean what it does in English, but simply means “with”. “Co” in our language suggests “equal with” which is obviously not the case with Mary. Mary’s fiat makes possible the Redemption by making the Incarnation possible (unless you believe that God raped her). That’s all. It doesn’t mean that Mary is anything without God, because she isn’t. No one is.

 

[reen12]

You know, Atreyu, the following is an excellent argument:

quote: reen12

God will use imperfect instruments to convey this
news…not infallible ones.

quote: Atreyu

Therefore by this reasoning, the Bible is imperfect and fallible. If the Bible can be infallible, then there is no reason why the Church cannot possibly be infallible. This is not proof that the Church is infallible; but if it’s possible for one (to be infallible), it’s possible for the other.

I must say, that’s really good. :yup:

Best,

reen12

PS: The reason i think this is an excellent argument,
is that it does not rely on assertion.

 

[reen12]

quote: reen12

It matters little, what I am called in this world
‘cafeteria Catholic!’
but it will matter, eternally, what Christ calls me…
saved…or lost.

quote: ComradeAndrei

Quite true, but I don’t think we come to the same conclusion.

Since Catholicism holds that she is the sole unerring authority,
in terms of speaking “God’s will” on earth, I can well understand
how one could “arrive” at this conclusion. :yup:

“He who hears you, hears Me” has to cover a lot of
ground, if He, indeed, intended:

indulgences, treasury of grace, the dogma of the
Assumption, sacraments that ‘dispense’ grace,
infallibility, purgatory, Mediatrix…

quote: reen12

How get from the Mary of the gospels, to Mediatrix.
How cope with mechanistic views of salvation:
-sacraments ‘dispensing’ grace
-treasury of grace, from which withdrawals are made
-indulgences!

One day, I looked at these teachings, and said:
I…don’t*…think*

…so…
Even Tradition - with a capital “T” - can’t justify this.
No matter what they say.
[They = various popes and councils.]

This is plainly error.
Therefore: the Church’s understanding of Peter and the Keys
cannot be what Christ intended.

An individual may accept:
indulgences, treasury of grace, the dogma of the
Assumption, sacraments that ‘dispense’ grace,
infallibility, purgatory, Mediatrix…

as truth, as plausible, as redolent of the gospels,
and the letters of Paul. I have no problem with
people accepting these things, in conscience.

reen12

 

[LSK]

I’m supposed to leave Iraq in a few days!!!

I am so glad you are coming home safe and sound…thank GOD and thank you, St. Michael, for protecting our brother!

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Well, it seems I’ve been absent again for a while. I’m glad to see the thread is still going strong, however!

This may be my last post in Iraq, as I am supposed to leave tomorrow. When I return to the States, it will be a while before I have internet access hooked up, so you might not hear from me for a while. I will be back, though!

So, I’ve been listening to The Journey Home episodes I downloaded from EWTN. I’ve been doing this off and on for several months now, and I’ve listened to like six in the last three days. They are very fascinating, and it is very comforting to hear that the people on the show went through many of the same struggles I am now going through. Sometimes it’s a bit startling how striking the similarities are.

One common struggle people faced was family opposition, which is something I am dealing with, as some of you know. My immediate family does not in any way think I am abandoning my faith, but they are concerned at the surprising direction my faith has taken. They have not done the studying I have, and this is very confusing to them, because nothing in my past really hinted at this. They really would prefer that I not become Catholic. All of them, so far as I can tell, hold to the “invisible body of believers” idea of the Church, so they do not care all that much what denomination I belong to. However, there is a world of difference between switching from one Protestant denomination to another and switching from Protestantism to Catholicism.

My family members have the same anti-Catholic prejudices I had before looking into the matter myself. I was not one of those “the Pope is the Anti-Christ, Catholics are all going to Hell” kind of Protestants, by any means. However, I believed in sola scriptura (though I never thought about why), and I saw the usual problematic Catholic doctrines as being extra-biblical (or even anti-biblical) inventions of man. Now that I have actually studied these doctrines, I have a much more approving view of them. My family, of course, does not. Someday soon, I hope to give a lengthy and detailed explanation to them, but I still feel odd trying to convince my family of the truth of Catholicism before I am convinced myself.

When I went home on leave, my interest in spiritual matters had lessened a bit, as the more tangible realities of home and family were occupying my mind. Thus, when I did speak with my mother about my studies, I did not sound all that enthusiastic about the possibility of becoming Catholic. She seemed quite relieved. However, having returned to Iraq and continued my studies, my interest has returned and even grown. I have a feeling my next conversation with my mother about spiritual matters may be quite distressing for her.

So, to wrap this all up, please pray for me as I continue my studies. Pray also for my family, that God would guide them to the truth and help them to understand what I am doing and why. Thanks!

My question posts will return, but this is more of a “here’s what’s going on; please pray for me,” kind of post. Our regularly scheduled programming will return soon. God bless!

 

[AquinasXVI]

IP:

Hurry up and get that internet connected!

I thought it was interesting that you found the CC in the land occupied by Islam. God truly works in mysterious ways.

in XT.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

Hello Iambic Pen !!
I am thrilled to learn of your faith journey.
I was raised ferociously anti-Catholic (Jehovah’s Witness),
and never in my wildest dreams imagined that I would one day be a member of the Catholic Church and absolutely in love with the Catholic Faith.
You are now making that journey yourself.
I encourage you to continue making the journey. You will continue to have doubts for a while about the Catholic Church, I know you will, cuz I did too. You don’t erase decades of distrust of Catholicism from your mind in a few months of study. The old mentality will keep popping up. I urge you to do one thing above all else: PRAY to the Lord daily for increased understanding and discernment. He WILL guide you, and things WILL become clearer to you and your doubts WILL eventually be assuaged.
Continue on sir, and Merry Christmas to you !!
God bless,
Jaypeeto3

 

[jim1130]

The Iambic Pen:

Well, it seems I’ve been absent again for a while. I’m glad to see the thread is still going strong, however!

This may be my last post in Iraq, as I am supposed to leave tomorrow. When I return to the States, it will be a while before I have internet access hooked up, so you might not hear from me for a while. I will be back, though!

So, I’ve been listening to The Journey Home episodes I downloaded from EWTN. I’ve been doing this off and on for several months now, and I’ve listened to like six in the last three days. They are very fascinating, and it is very comforting to hear that the people on the show went through many of the same struggles I am now going through. Sometimes it’s a bit startling how striking the similarities are.

One common struggle people faced was family opposition, which is something I am dealing with, as some of you know. My immediate family does not in any way think I am abandoning my faith, but they are concerned at the surprising direction my faith has taken. They have not done the studying I have, and this is very confusing to them, because nothing in my past really hinted at this. They really would prefer that I not become Catholic. All of them, so far as I can tell, hold to the “invisible body of believers” idea of the Church, so they do not care all that much what denomination I belong to. However, there is a world of difference between switching from one Protestant denomination to another and switching from Protestantism to Catholicism.

My family members have the same anti-Catholic prejudices I had before looking into the matter myself. I was not one of those “the Pope is the Anti-Christ, Catholics are all going to Hell” kind of Protestants, by any means. However, I believed in sola scriptura (though I never thought about why), and I saw the usual problematic Catholic doctrines as being extra-biblical (or even anti-biblical) inventions of man. Now that I have actually studied these doctrines, I have a much more approving view of them. My family, of course, does not. Someday soon, I hope to give a lengthy and detailed explanation to them, but I still feel odd trying to convince my family of the truth of Catholicism before I am convinced myself.

When I went home on leave, my interest in spiritual matters had lessened a bit, as the more tangible realities of home and family were occupying my mind. Thus, when I did speak with my mother about my studies, I did not sound all that enthusiastic about the possibility of becoming Catholic. She seemed quite relieved. However, having returned to Iraq and continued my studies, my interest has returned and even grown. I have a feeling my next conversation with my mother about spiritual matters may be quite distressing for her.

So, to wrap this all up, please pray for me as I continue my studies. Pray also for my family, that God would guide them to the truth and help them to understand what I am doing and why. Thanks!

My question posts will return, but this is more of a “here’s what’s going on; please pray for me,” kind of post. Our regularly scheduled programming will return soon. God bless!

Each morning when I pray the Rosary, I want you to know that you and all military service men and women, especially those in Iraq and Afghanistan, are in my prayers as are their families. Stay safe! Thank you for serving! And when you return to the State: “Welcome home.”

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Ahhhh…that’s what it comes down to, huh?
The need for certainty…where I see certainty
cannot be had. For that, you see, would require
…infallibility - either my own or that of another.

Do you think that God just created us so we can wonder in darkness and commit blunder after blunder with no hope of ever really knowing what we are supposed to do, with certainty?

“I am the Way, the Truth and the Life”-but I’ll leave it up to YOU to determine just what that means…pretty lame and not very in line with Christ.

I do not know if I am right. And, Comrade Andrei,
there are many things in this life, where certainty
cannot be had - and I both accept and live with that.

As to things that deal with salvation, they must be known with certainty. I am uncertain about the nature of blackholes-but they are irrelevant to salvation.

In my experience, Catholics seem to frequently ask:

And where does your authority come from ??!! - as if
this were some kind of religious trump card !

If I were to tell you what I think about that “trump
card” I would be leaving the bounds of both civility and
charity.

Well, without any authority we have a mess of dueling opinions-and opinions don’t count for much of anything. Why even bother to argue a point if it can’t be backed up with anything more than, “I think…”?

“He who hears you, hears Me” has to cover a lot of
ground, if He, indeed, intended:

indulgences, treasury of grace, the dogma of the
Assumption, sacraments that ‘dispense’ grace,
infallibility, purgatory, Mediatrix…

That is cute, but why didn’t Jesus intend such things? You again manage to dance around the question without answering it. You say such things are “plainly error”, well you are merely making an assertion here.

Again, what is the problem with these teachings?

 

[reen12]

Hi, ComradeAndrei,

quote: ComradeAndrei

That is cute, but why didn’t Jesus intend such things? You again manage to dance around the question without answering it. You say such things are “plainly error”, well you are merely making an assertion here.

Again, what is the problem with these teachings?

Read the scriptures.

And Merry Christmas.

reen12