Does the Catholic Church have a position on gun control?

[Ridgerunner]

So, recognition of facts is not being complicit? Right…

You have no more idea what internally motivates these killers, or the bomb killers, or the plane killers than you have of how many eucalyptus trees there are in Brazil.

Nobody really does except that most of them do want to create a spectacle.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So, you’re basically saying that all but three of the 500+ bishops in the U.S. are derelict in their duty by not speaking out in favor of what you characterize as an important moral imperative.

No, I have not said that, and you know it.

Prior to the last election, how many spoke out on how a Catholic had to vote?

On what issue has a full body of bishops spoke out?

They accept the hierarchy, as so should we.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You have no more idea what internally motivates these killers, or the bomb killers, or the plane killers than you have of how many eucalyptus trees there are in Brazil.

Nobody really does except that most of them do want to create a spectacle.

Whatever internally motivates them, there seems to be a majority of the recent mass shooters that have chosen the AR15, and through the easy access have obtained possession and taken a dignity of life from a number of people.

 

[Jaysuitical]

So, you’re basically saying that all but three of the 500+ bishops in the U.S. are derelict in their duty by not speaking out in favor of what you characterize as an important moral imperative.

It wouldn’t be the first time that a number of bishops were derelict in their duty, as a great many were when Paul VI issued Humanae Vitae. The people insisting on their rights as gun owners make arguments no different from those who say “It’s my body, it’s my life, it’s my right to defend it as I see fit.”

 

[Fairwinds]

Whatever internally motivates them, there seems to be a majority of the recent mass shooters that have chosen the AR15, and through the easy access have obtained possession and taken a dignity of life from a number of people.

sources?

no, let me put it this way.

you’re wrong, again.

A November 2012 Mass Shootings Analysis report issued by the New Jersey Intelligence & Analysis Unit (NJ ROIC) in partnership with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security shows semiautomatic handguns are the most common weapons used to carry out mass shootings. The report was issued one month before the Newtown shooting in which, according to the coroner and police, the killer used a semi-automatic rifle.

“The mass killing incidents this year at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin and a movie theater in Colorado garnered international attention and focused the efforts of public and private sector security officials on the prevention of and response to mass shootings in the United States,” the report states.

The report focuses on the commonalities and trends of the 29 deadliest mass shootings in the past 13 years, starting in 1999 with Columbine High School. Mass shootings are defined by the report as events that result in at least five people being killed.

“Semiautomatic handguns are the weapon of choice for mass shootings,” the report states.

In 2012 (including Newtown), four of six mass shootings that occurred were carried out with handguns.

(emphasis added)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

sources?

no, let me put it this way.

you’re wrong, again.

(emphasis added)

Sources have been provided in other threads. It’s surprises me that people will still attempt to misuse facts.

Setting the Record Straight: Adam Lanza Did use the Bushmaster AR-15

The media did a horrible job getting its facts and figures straight during and after the tragedy in Connecticut. Gun control advocates have seized on a lot of information and ignored a lot of information in an effort to push their agenda.

But I’m seeing gun rights supporters do the same. Most troubling, over the past week on radio filling in for Neal Boortz I’ve heard from dozens of callers, tweeters, Facebook friends, and email correspondents assuring me that Adam Lanza never used the AR-15 in his possession. Most people linked to a video purportedly showing the police retrieving the AR-15 from Adam Lanza’s car after the incident.

I don’t blame these people for getting the facts wrong. The media caused a lot of the misinformation in their rush to cover the story. But as the nation begins to set policy (or not) based on this random act of violence, we should all have our facts straight.

The fact is, Adam Lanza used a handgun to take his own life, but he relied on the Bushmaster AR-15 to kill most of the victims. He did use that gun. You don’t have to believe me. Believe Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance:

The primary weapon used in the attack was a “Bushmaster AR-15 assault-type weapon,” said Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance.

Let’s keep to the facts, not the grainy videos on YouTube purporting to show what is not true.

The theater, the mall, the school, and the man who killed the first responders, all used an AR15. Spinning facts doesn’t change reality. Seems there have been a couple more shooters caught with an AR15, even more recently. Going back through the years doesn’t change what we’ve seen in recent times.


Newtown shooter’s guns: What we know

The primary weapon used in the attack was a “Bushmaster AR-15 assault-type weapon,” said Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance. The rifle is a Bushmaster version of a widely made AR-15, the civilian version of the M-16 rifle used by the U.S. military. The original M-16 patent ran out years ago, and now the AR-15 is manufactured by several gunmakers. Unlike the military version, the AR-15 is a semiautomatic, firing one bullet per squeeze of the trigger. But like the M-16, ammunition is loaded through a magazine. In the school shooting, police say Lanza’s rifle used numerous 30-round magazines.

It’s not about being right or wrong as you seem to want to make it. For Catholics, it’s about following the guidance of the men of the Church, for the dignity of life for all.

 

[SamH]

It wouldn’t be the first time that a number of bishops were derelict in their duty, as a great many were when Paul VI issued Humanae Vitae. The people insisting on their rights as gun owners make arguments no different from those who say “It’s my body, it’s my life, it’s my right to defend it as I see fit.”

Source on this claim?

 

[Fairwinds]

Sources have been provided in other threads. It’s surprises me that people will still attempt to misuse facts…

what doesn’t surprise me is how you cherrypick facts to try to make your case. you said there’s a trend to use AR 15s there’s not. its obvious to everyone reading that you select cases and ignore other evidence. so, once again,

what part of this report or its conclusions covering 13 years of mass shootings do you dispute, and with what sources?

A November 2012 Mass Shootings Analysis report issued by the New Jersey Intelligence & Analysis Unit (NJ ROIC) in partnership with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security shows semiautomatic handguns are the most common weapons used to carry out mass shootings. The report was issued one month before the Newtown shooting in which, according to the coroner and police, the killer used a semi-automatic rifle.

“The mass killing incidents this year at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin and a movie theater in Colorado garnered international attention and focused the efforts of public and private sector security officials on the prevention of and response to mass shootings in the United States,” the report states.

The report focuses on the commonalities and trends of the 29 deadliest mass shootings in the past 13 years, starting in 1999 with Columbine High School. Mass shootings are defined by the report as events that result in at least five people being killed.

“Semiautomatic handguns are the weapon of choice for mass shootings,” the report states.

In 2012 (including Newtown), four of six mass shootings that occurred were carried out with handguns.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

what doesn’t surprise me is how you cherrypick facts to try to make your case. you said there’s a trend to use AR 15s there’s not. its obvious to everyone reading that you select cases and ignore other evidence. so, once again,

what part of this report or its conclusions covering 13 years of mass shootings do you dispute, and with what sources?

I provided you a conservative source. When one has to spin, or cherry pick, they don’t appear to have much of an argument.

The theater, the mall, the school, the first responders…it’s called a trend.

 

[Fairwinds]

I provided you a conservative source. When one has to spin, or cherry pick, they don’t appear to have much of an argument.

The theater, the mall, the school, the first responders…it’s called a trend.

the 13 year study and 4 of the last 6 say you’re wrong. again.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

the 13 year study and 4 of the last 6 say you’re wrong. again.

No, your opinion says I’m wrong. But it appears your opinion is biased. I am in agreement with the men of the Church. To deny the problems, also places the men of the Church in a rather ‘foolish’ position. They recognize the problems with the assault weapons and don’t arbitrarily call for action on something ‘imagined.’ I mention the men of the Church, yet again, to try and keep us on topic. That is, there is a position of the Church on gun control.

 

[Fairwinds]

No, your opinion …ontrol.

you got burned again.

 

[Gricken]

The way I see it. The church says that governments have a duty to restrict weapons. Fine and dandy. What I do NOT see is a type of regulation specified. Because of this, it is up to our own judgement to decide which kind of regulation will work best. If a bishop decides that endorsing recent proposals is what’s best. That is up to him, what we can NOT do is say that since a few bishops agree with recent proposals is say that the church endorses these proposals. A dissenting bishops IS NOT NEEDED to prove this. As Bishops are not required to speak on every matter. Nor can one take their silence as agreement. In fact we can’t take it as dissent either. The way I see it, most bishops probably think we should decide for ourselves which regulation is best.

In short, the official church position on gun control is “yes”. Trying to appeal to it’s authority for specific proposals doesn’t work.

 

[LongingSoul]

So, you’re basically saying that all but three of the 500+ bishops in the U.S. are derelict in their duty by not speaking out in favor of what you characterize as an important moral imperative.

I’m not understanding why you keep saying only 3 isolated Bishops have spoken out? From the USCCB site, this Testimony to the Senate from February this year states…

"The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) is grateful for the opportunity to provide this testimony for the hearing…

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/criminal-justice-restorative-justice/upload/USCCB-Senate-Testimony-Proposals-to-Reduce-Gun-Violence-2013.pdf

While of course 500 Bishops weren’t all tapping out a letter each, the USCCB have representatives for different issues who speak for the whole body of Bishops under the banner of the Conference. Every organisation and Govt. Dept does that. This testimony specifically says that the USCCB as a whole is grateful to be able to speak to the Senate.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m not understanding why you keep saying only 3 isolated Bishops have spoken out? From the USCCB site, this Testimony to the Senate from February this year states…

"The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) is grateful for the opportunity to provide this testimony for the hearing…

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/criminal-justice-restorative-justice/upload/USCCB-Senate-Testimony-Proposals-to-Reduce-Gun-Violence-2013.pdf

While of course 500 Bishops weren’t all tapping out a letter each, the USCCB have representatives for different issues who speak for the whole body of Bishops under the banner of the Conference. Every organisation and Govt. Dept does that. This testimony specifically says that the USCCB as a whole is grateful to be able to speak to the Senate.

They seem to say that a few are speaking outside of their authority, even though it’s clearly men on USCCB committees, and the president of the USCCB.

 

[LongingSoul]

They seem to say that a few are speaking outside of their authority, even though it’s clearly men on USCCB committees, and the president of the USCCB.

It’s not just the US Bishops speaking out, as Fr Lombardi the Chief Vatican spokesman refers to in his January editorial on gun violence this year, most of the religious world are at one with the Vatican on this issue. Certainly Australian Catholics are.

news.va/en/news/lombardi-editorial-against-arms

 

[Fairwinds]

It’s not just the US Bishops speaking out, as Fr Lombardi the Chief Vatican spokesman refers to in his January editorial on gun violence this year, most of the religious world are at one with the Vatican on this issue. Certainly Australian Catholics are.

news.va/en/news/lombardi-editorial-against-arms

does the Vatican disapprove of 10rd magazines?

 

[Ridgerunner]

It’s not about being right or wrong as you seem to want to make it. For Catholics, it’s about following the guidance of the men of the Church, for the dignity of life for all.

Except, of course, that the “men of the Church” have not said anything about the AR-15, despite your assertions that they support you and Obama on gun control.

They didn’t address it in 2000 and not since then either.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It’s not just the US Bishops speaking out, as Fr Lombardi the Chief Vatican spokesman refers to in his January editorial on gun violence this year, most of the religious world are at one with the Vatican on this issue. Certainly Australian Catholics are.

news.va/en/news/lombardi-editorial-against-arms

He isn’t the “chief Vatican Spokesman”. He’s the press officer. He, himself said he doesn’t speak for the Pope, saying as follows:

Upon assuming the directorate, Lombardi said he would not be a papal “spokesman” since he believes Benedict XVI did not need an interpreter, saying, “I don’t think my role is to explain the Pope’s thinking or explain the things that he already states in an extraordinarily clear and rich way.”[4]

Neither Pope Benedict nor Pope Francis has expressed himself on the specifics of the Obama/Prodigal proposition, which includes banning certain semiautomatic rifles that have a “military look” to them or requiring background checks when one person receives a rifle as a gift or by inheritance.

Even Fr. Lombardi didn’t have specific proposals. He endorsed the NOTION of gun controls, but said what he did before Obama proposed what he did.

 

[Ridgerunner]

No, I have not said that, and you know it.

Prior to the last election, how many spoke out on how a Catholic had to vote?

On what issue has a full body of bishops spoke out?

They accept the hierarchy, as so should we.

You have, indeed, said in effect that the 500+ bishops in the U.S. who have not supported Obama’s gun control proposal are derelict in their duty. If Obama’s (now dead) proposal is as big a moral imperative as you say it is, they are derelict in never mentioning it.

The U.S. bishops did not tell Catholics “how to vote”. They don’t do that. However, they did speak out on the HHS Mandate.

The full body of bishops speaks out when the full body thinks there is a sufficiently serious moral issue upon which to speak out, and have done so. They have not backed the Obama/Prodigal program.

You have exactly three bishops on your side out of more than 500. That’s it. Yet you keep pretending all the bishops support your point of view. If you were candid about who actually supports Obama’s now defunct proposal, you would admit that. I think you finally did in another thread on the same subject.