Does the Catholic Church have a position on gun control?

[Ridgerunner]

My bishop is against guns. Though he is not from the US.

Hierachy is hard to understand for gunslingers, for they are cowboys that make the rules themselves.

If your bishop is against guns, you ought to at least give weight to what he says.

Your second sentence is just an insult and you shouldn’t have said it. I thought Netherlanders were supposed to have manners.

 

[Meemai]

If you are now claiming to read Cdl Dolan’s mind, then we might as well abandon the subject. He has not said word one about it after the Obama bill went down in flames.

I very much realize guns are secular. The subject is secular. It is you, not me, who claims the bishops of the U.S. support the Obama bill, not me.

I’m not against background checks. You just assumed that and ignored what I said about it in the other thread. I would even make mental health records available to the police. But I draw the line when Obama and you want me to do a background check on my own son before giving him a rifle, or somehow doing a background check on myself before inheriting one.

what if your son get bullied on school and tells no one, and then decides to suicide with his own gun? With younger boys this can happen. There might have been many cases also where the boy took papas gun and shot himself.

Would be painful.

If your bishop is against guns, you ought to at least give weight to what he says.

Your second sentence is just an insult and you shouldn’t have said it. I thought Netherlanders were supposed to have manners.

Oh I am from a part of the Netherlands that’s like Basque in Spain though we are no terorists and we surely do not strive for our own country and rule.

We however are different in culture and stuff. Besides I’m drinking some beers.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If you are now claiming to read Cdl Dolan’s mind, then we might as well abandon the subject. He has not said word one about it after the Obama bill went down in flames.

I very much realize guns are secular. The subject is secular. It is you, not me, who claims the bishops of the U.S. support the Obama bill, not me.

I’m not against background checks. You just assumed that and ignored what I said about it in the other thread. I would even make mental health records available to the police. But I draw the line when Obama and you want me to do a background check on my own son before giving him a rifle, or somehow doing a background check on myself before inheriting one.

Whoa. Aren’t you claiming to read the mind of those bishops who have let their committee chairman speak for them?

Back to Obama, let’s not forget they want to take ALL guns away.

No one said Obama, but you. The bishops have called for meaningful and effective gun controls.

And yes, do a background check. Is there some concern he won’t pass it? It would be a minor inconvenience to a law abiding citizen, and a small sacrifice for the possibility of preventing someone from committing atrocities as to cost a number of people to lose a dignity of life.

 

[Meemai]

Whoa. Aren’t you claiming to read the mind of those bishops who have let their committee chairman speak for them?

Back to Obama, let’s not forget they want to take ALL guns away.

No one said Obama, but you. The bishops have called for meaningful and effective gun controls.

And yes, do a background check. Is there some concern he won’t pass it? It would be a minor inconvenience to a law abiding citizen, and a small sacrifice for the possibility of preventing someone from committing atrocities as to cost a number of people to lose a dignity of life.

Life is worth nothing if it can be ended by pulling a stupid piece of metal. But it’s not my concern here guns are forbidden. And I am happy they are!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well, who isn’t for meaningful and effective gun controls? I am too. But I’m just not for the Obama proposal you advocate.

I don’t understand your second paragraph. The sentences don’t work.

You have fought against all gun controls in this debate, and dismiss the bishops who have called for supporting legislation. Did you contact your representatives and state your support for exactly what you believe was meaningful and effective? The bill could have been changed, but no it’s easier to blame Obama. Seriously? Your whole argument, or arguments, don’t work.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Life is worth nothing if it can be ended by pulling a stupid piece of metal. But it’s not my concern here guns are forbidden. And I am happy they are!

It’s indifference. Pope Francis recently did a homily on indifference.

 

[Meemai]

It’s indifference. Pope Francis recently did a homily on indifference.

Well I am happy to see your from the US and you are against them. You know I have almost lost faith in you Americans. But your nice. Thanks to you I can still believe in you all.

 

[Ridgerunner]

what if your son get bullied on school and tells no one, and then decides to suicide with his own gun? With younger boys this can happen. There might have been many cases also where the boy took papas gun and shot himself.

Would be painful.

Oh I am from a part of the Netherlands that’s like Basque in Spain though we are no terorists and we surely do not strive for our own country and rule.

We however are different in culture and stuff. Besides I’m drinking some beers.

I think I know my son considerably better than you do. We in the U.S. actually have children, or most of us do if we’re faithful Catholics, and we consider it more important than our own lives to raise them properly.

My own son is a very strong fellow and protects other students against bullies. Even so, I have taught him about bullies and why they are the way they are. He understands.

But you know, not having a gun is no preventive of suicide. People have a dozen ways of doing it. Some are serious about suicide, and those people get it done. Some are not serious, but some get it done anyway.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

But I’m just not for the Obama proposal you advocate.

Let’s clear this fallacy up right now. You continue associating me as supporting Obama. Please provide the quote showing where I supported Obama, and not the calls from the bishops, or admit you were mistaken (at the very least). Prove it’s not just an ad hominem.

 

[Meemai]

I think I know my son considerably better than you do. We in the U.S. actually have children, or most of us do if we’re faithful Catholics, and we consider it more important than our own lives to raise them properly.

My own son is a very strong fellow and protects other students against bullies. Even so, I have taught him about bullies and why they are the way they are. He understands.

But you know, not having a gun is no preventive of suicide. People have a dozen ways of doing it. Some are serious about suicide, and those people get it done. Some are not serious, but some get it done anyway.

With a gun it’s way easier.

And to me you Americans seem gun loving cowboys. You do realise guns are taking lifes all the time? That they are weapons of mass destruction?

I will pray for you that the holy ghost may come to you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well I am happy to see your from the US and you are against them. You know I have almost lost faith in you Americans. But your nice. Thanks to you I can still believe in you all.

The sad thing is, a majority of people supported gun controls. 9 out of 10 gun owners agreed with background checks. The gun lobby is too rich and powerful to have any affect on our politicians though.

 

[Meemai]

The sad thing is, a majority of people supported gun controls. 9 out of 10 gun owners agreed with background checks. The gun lobby is too rich and powerful to have any affect on our politicians though.

I am heavily against such lobbies. They do us no good. They are all corrupt and in it for the money. Something we catholics should be very weary off!

This reminds of me of Catch-22

 

[Ridgerunner]

You have fought against all gun controls in this debate, and dismiss the bishops who have called for supporting legislation. Did you contact your representatives and state your support for exactly what you believe was meaningful and effective? The bill could have been changed, but no it’s easier to blame Obama. Seriously? Your whole argument, or arguments, don’t work.

You misrepresent me. I said dozens of times that I opposed the Obama proposals. Never did I say I opposed all gun controls. I said the exact opposite. I didn’t “dismiss” Cdl Dolan. I have taken him exactly as he presented himself.

My representative supports the very same thing I support, and opposes what I oppose. Obama’s bill might have been changed, but my representative never even got a chance to vote on it or propose amendments to it, because it died in the Senate at the hands of Harry Reid.

Maybe my arguments against the Obama bill don’t work, but apparently most of the Senate thought the same way or Reid would not have tabled the bill. Even he didn’t support it. If even liberals wouldn’t support it, why should I?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I am heavily against such lobbies. They do us no good. They are all corrupt and in it for the money. Something we catholics should be very weary off!

This reminds of me of Catch-22

As a Netherlander, you may not know much about what the various lobbies in the U.S. do versus what some say about them. But in any event, they don’t affect you.

 

[Meemai]

As a Netherlander, you may not know much about what the various lobbies in the U.S. do versus what some say about them. But in any event, they don’t affect you.

They do…

They stand in my way, I want a world of syndicalism. So I am against a lot. And a lot effects me because I can’t get my way.

And I don’t think the prince of peace Jesus does well with guns. It’s just not apropiate and I pray to God he may put a end to this madness.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You misrepresent me. I said dozens of times that I opposed the Obama proposals. Never did I say I opposed all gun controls. I said the exact opposite. I didn’t “dismiss” Cdl Dolan. I have taken him exactly as he presented himself.

My representative supports the very same thing I support, and opposes what I oppose. Obama’s bill might have been changed, but my representative never even got a chance to vote on it or propose amendments to it, because it died in the Senate at the hands of Harry Reid.

Maybe my arguments against the Obama bill don’t work, but apparently most of the Senate thought the same way or Reid would not have tabled the bill. Even he didn’t support it. If even liberals wouldn’t support it, why should I?

Obama is not our Church, or even a part of it. The topic of the thread is, “Does the Catholic Church have a position on gun control?” I have provided statements from the bishops, and other men of the Church. You have argued against those, in every way possible.

 

[Meemai]

2 Corinthians 10:4
We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments.

Isaiah 54:17
But in that coming day no weapon turned against you will succeed. You will silence every voice raised up to accuse you. These benefits are enjoyed by the servants of the LORD; their vindication will come from me. I, the LORD, have spoke

 

[Ridgerunner]

The sad thing is, a majority of people supported gun controls. 9 out of 10 gun owners agreed with background checks. The gun lobby is too rich and powerful to have any affect on our politicians though.

It should be no surprise to realize a majority supports gun controls. That’s why they are taken up in the various legislatures and voted on. Some pass and some don’t. There are controls in my state, and I support them. I would like to see mental health records open to law enforcement, but the state legislature doesn’t have the power to legislate that because HIPAA preempts it.

Some legislative bodies are more restrictive than others. I think some controls are silly and not responsive to citizen needs or hazards. Maybe there is good reason for the strict gun laws in Chicago. Emanuel has recognized that they don’t seem to be preventing gun killings and proposed stricter sentencing for gun crimes. He could be right in doing that, and I suspect he is since most gun crimes are not punished with any real persuasive severity.

But in some places, there is virtually no gun crime at all; not by any kind of weapon. In some places (presumably in NYC) there are no predatory animals capable of killing a man. In some places there are lots of them.

I say fit the controls to the circumstance. But for certain it appears the lack of law enforcement access to mental health information is as big a gap as there is in the law. The Aurora shooter was known by his shrink to be dangerous, but she revealed nothing. There is some indication Lanza was known to be dangerous and that his mother was trying to get him committed. But she failed and he killed her instead.

It’s not limited to guns, either. Yes, the Tsarnaevs had guns, but they killed most of those they killed with a bomb. And the government knew they had terrorist connections. The Russians warned the government about them. But nothing was done.

And they locked down two cities while the Tsarnaevs were on the loose. Likely that was one of the reasons Harry Reid tabled Obama’s bill along with what seems to have been his own disbelief in it and lack of support in his own party. Two entire cities full of people were sitting in their homes with terrorists running around loose. Some could have protected themselves and some couldn’t have. Undoubtedly that made a lot of people think. If we’re going to let terrorists come into this country and ignore warnings about them, should all of Boston be disarmed?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Obama is not our Church, or even a part of it. The topic of the thread is, “Does the Catholic Church have a position on gun control?” I have provided statements from the bishops, and other men of the Church. You have argued against those, in every way possible.

You have provided the statements of Cdl Dolan who accepted what the legislatures did. You have provided the statements of Bp. Blaire.

You have not provided a morally binding statement by the bishops as a whole, and certainly not of mine.

Obama is not the Church, though he might think so and some might agree with him. But his proposals are, and have from the beginning, been the real topic here. The only person here who has proposed any other controls has been me.

The Church itself has no definitive position on gun control, other than a general exhortation to prudent action. When one presents the Obama proposals as that prudent action, then one needs to make the case for them on their own merits, not represent that the bishops support them when, in fact, almost none have said they do.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It should be no surprise to realize a majority supports gun controls. That’s why they are taken up in the various legislatures and voted on. Some pass and some don’t. There are controls in my state, and I support them. I would like to see mental health records open to law enforcement, but the state legislature doesn’t have the power to legislate that because HIPAA preempts it.

Some legislative bodies are more restrictive than others. I think some controls are silly and not responsive to citizen needs or hazards. Maybe there is good reason for the strict gun laws in Chicago. Emanuel has recognized that they don’t seem to be preventing gun killings and proposed stricter sentencing for gun crimes. He could be right in doing that, and I suspect he is since most gun crimes are not punished with any real persuasive severity.

But in some places, there is virtually no gun crime at all; not by any kind of weapon. In some places (presumably in NYC) there are no predatory animals capable of killing a man. In some places there are lots of them.

I say fit the controls to the circumstance. But for certain it appears the lack of law enforcement access to mental health information is as big a gap as there is in the law. The Aurora shooter was known by his shrink to be dangerous, but she revealed nothing. There is some indication Lanza was known to be dangerous and that his mother was trying to get him committed. But she failed and he killed her instead.

It’s not limited to guns, either. Yes, the Tsarnaevs had guns, but they killed most of those they killed with a bomb. And the government knew they had terrorist connections. The Russians warned the government about them. But nothing was done.

And they locked down two cities while the Tsarnaevs were on the loose. Likely that was one of the reasons Harry Reid tabled Obama’s bill along with what seems to have been his own disbelief in it and lack of support in his own party. Two entire cities full of people were sitting in their homes with terrorists running around loose. Some could have protected themselves and some couldn’t have. Undoubtedly that made a lot of people think. If we’re going to let terrorists come into this country and ignore warnings about them, should all of Boston be disarmed?

No armed citizen stopped either of the scenarios you reference. In fact, where as an armed citizen stopped any mass murderer? Kind of takes the wind out of the ‘should all of Boston be disarmed’ argument, in my opinion.

Go a step further, How would gun controls, aimed at stopping straw purchases or other purchases where background checks are not required, impact Boston?

The bishops did not call for disarming this country, even though they did target specific guns. It’s not an all or nothing proposition by no means. You know that.