does the Catholic Church make it too hard to get into heaven?

[St_Redemption]

none of them. i have issues with the bible that they claim is inerrant and take literally.

I have read the New Testament and some of the Old but i find too many verses (like ask and you shall receive; where two are gathered; two luminaries; the moon will turn off its light; the smallest seed; etc.) that don’t hold water to follow it blindly. i have seen footnotes in catholic bibles which state such and such verse wasn’t in earlier bibles. we don’t even know if what we have are the real teachings of Christ.

as important is the confusion among the members of the church; just look at the confusion on this thread. even off the net some say you need to believe all the church teaches and others say you don’t. i have talked to priest who seemed to shy to say other then its okay. which brings me to the original question …why all the rules. I guess the narrow gate is paved with these rules and they are the reason few enter in.

but i do believe in the call of the Holy Spirit and that is why I seek answers.

I can greatly sympathize with this view. Im very confused as well. I’ve done so much searching and digging on what sort of Christian I am. Ive read books from both sides of the coin, listened to numerous 2-3 hour long debates between scholars of both sides and remain somewhere between a protestant and a catholic. I think most Catholics would call this position Protestant lol. But I am pro-catholic on some things, for sure. Im a mile away from Sola-scriptura, for example. But I agree that it is hard to grasp all of the rules and other bells and whistles, and I have never felt even remotely comfortable even beginning to pray to Mary or any Saint for that matter. I don’t think Ill ever get my answer in certain until I die. I do know, however, that I will die a Christian!

 

[DavidFilmer]

But I do need faith and belief to remain in a state of grace as the Catholic Church defines “in a state of grace”.

NO YOU DON’T. Where are you getting this “Catholic definition” from? It is HERESY.

You need the Grace of Christian Baptism, and NOTHING ELSE. THIS is what the Church actually teaches:

CCC 1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

Please STOP saying that you need anything more. It’s HERESY.

Taking just the Mass… I have 100% full knowledge the Catholic Church teaches it is Christ’s one and only true Church

Having knowledge of a teaching is not the same as having knowledge. I know that Charles Manson taught that he was the second coming of the Messiah. But I don’t believe it, so I don’t “know” it. I know OF it, but I don’t know it.

When the Church speaks of knowledge, she means that you KNOW it, not that you are merely aware of it.

and I have 100% full knowledge the Catholic Church teaches that missing Mass is grave and with full knowledge of this and intent, it would be a mortal sin.

And, again, you misunderstand consent. It’s not whether or not you consent to skip Mass. It’s whether or not you consent to forfeit your salvation. If you have received Baptismal Grace, you can only go to hell if you WANT to go there (that’s what “consent” means). God will respect your freewill choice. But it is YOUR choice. It is not God’s choice, and it is not the Church’s choice.

 

[steve_b]

I have a Baptismal certificate issued shortly after birth and an updated copy with my Confirmation just 10 yrs later duly noted. So iow I lost my grace because I didn’t follow what I don’t have faith or belief in. That’s not hard to do.

Because you have been confirmed, that tells me you have also been taught about the sacraments of baptism, reconciliation, and Eucharist as well. Which means you’ve been instructed on sin and it’s degrees, venial and mortal.

Just because you don’t have faith anymore doesn’t absolve you of the consequences of that. Don’t take that lightly. It’s gravely serious
S:

So iow faithful Catholics and the Catholic Church say I’m certain to go to hell in my current state.

Here’s what scripture and the Church teaches. 1861

and

**1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Here’s an example of Paul trying to redirect a person who won’t be redirected. Keep in mind Paul isn’t working with goofballs and nutjobs. He is speaking to the baptized in the Church.

Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

Open the link for the definition of that word in Greek. A man who is a heretic. Okay, one asks… define heretic (see definition of heresy ). IOW, one who has been baptised, and embraces heresy, is condemned by God, because of heresy, if they die in heresy.
S:

I could have missed one Mass and if I never repented it I’m in a state of mortal of sin and certain of going to hell. I get it. I don’t believe it. But I get it. And I’m not at all meaning to be disrespectful.

Fully recognizing you’re going against this** #**22
If you didn’t know before, you know now, where deliberately missing mass on Sunday comes from and the consequences.

God gave us free will. It is ultimately what makes us culpable in the end for what we do both good and bad. After all if we didn’t have free will we would NOT be culpable for what we did, because we would not be able to make choices freely.

Therefore, with free will, we face the consequences for our choices.
S:

On the contrary I respect this is your faith. It’s just not mine and I sometimes get irritated when I’m told I’m going to hell if I don’t keep trying to believe and don’t repent things I don’t even believe. Anyways. I just wanted to point to where the CCC speaks about people like me going to hell. Peace.

Jesus ran into the same response from those who HE was teaching face to face. No body could say Jesus was not an effective teacher. Imagine, the one who spoke in the beginning and all that is, came into existence, is now speaking mano a mano, with those who say to HIS face, I don’t believe you and walked away from Him. John 6:51-67

Note: A scary fact…Jesus didn’t go after them. Why? Because it says they believed not, ( they had no faith). And Jesus knew that about them before He even talked to them… My friend, don’t find yourself in their shoes.

We wouldn’t know a thing about salvation nor would we have any trustworthy teaching about salvation if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church.

You’re making your own choice, and it’s a bad one.

Prayers ascending for you

 

[steve_b]

Sorry I didn’t realize we could only respond to posts specifically addressed to us.

You can chime in with anyone you want to.

 

[steve_b]

Because you have been confirmed, that tells me you have also been taught about the sacraments of baptism, reconciliation, and Eucharist as well. Which means you’ve been instructed on sin and it’s degrees, venial and mortal.

Just because you don’t have faith anymore doesn’t absolve you of the consequences of that. Don’t take that lightly. It’s gravely serious

Here’s what scripture and the Church teaches. 1861

and

**1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Here’s an example of Paul trying to redirect a person who won’t be redirected. Keep in mind Paul isn’t working with goofballs and nutjobs. He is speaking to the baptized in the Church.

Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸ****ν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

Open the link for the definition of that word in Greek. A man who is a heretic. Okay, one asks… define heretic (see definition of heresy ). IOW, one who has been baptised, and embraces heresy, is condemned by God, because of heresy, if they die in heresy.

Fully recognizing you’re going against this** #**22
If you didn’t know before, you know now, where deliberately missing mass on Sunday comes from and the consequences.

God gave us free will. It is ultimately what makes us culpable in the end for what we do both good and bad. After all if we didn’t have free will we would NOT be culpable for what we did, because we would not be able to make choices freely.

Therefore, with free will, we face the consequences for our choices.

Jesus ran into the same response from those who HE was teaching face to face. No body could say Jesus was not an effective teacher. Imagine, the one who spoke in the beginning and all that is, came into existence, is now speaking mano a mano, with those who say to HIS face, I don’t believe you and walked away from Him. John 6:51-67

Note: A scary fact…Jesus didn’t go after them. Why? Because it says they believed not, ( they had no faith). And Jesus knew that about them before He even talked to them… My friend, don’t find yourself in their shoes.

We wouldn’t know a thing about salvation nor would we have any trustworthy teaching about salvation if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church.

You’re making your own choice, and it’s a bad one.

Prayers ascending for you

To: Sy Noe,

just realized a link I gave wasn’t set up as a link. This one will work 1861

****

 

[chimo]

If the church can write the rules that will be bound in heaven; why are there so many ways to fall short and end up in hell? It is supposed to be so easy a child can understand. I’d like to meet the child that can understand the entire catechism.

To clarify it seems the early church just needed Jesus and to follow his rules. Now you have to believe in the saints, Mary, Trinity, abstain, go to mass, etc. etc. etc.

If the church dropped all of the trappings and went back to a basic worship in Jesus it would be easier for many to enter heaven.

just my nickles worth

When Jesus said the road is narrower He is not referring to Heaven here just as the other road only leads to Hell. On the contrary the Lord is referring to you becoming a saint. It seems those who want to become a saint are those who actually choose life. You have to read between the words here to see what actually Jesus is saying. It is like when He says many are called and few are chosen. This never means only a few get to Heaven as many people have represented it but it actually means only few decide to choose to take upon themselves to be a saint in this life. Many people are called to be a saint but only few had chosen to do what it takes to become one. The rest do not work at it at least in the way and manner Jesus would want them. Here the doctrine of Purgatory takes over by those who do not work to become a saint who do not take the narrow road and do not take the invitation when many are called. Heaven actually is not a place we are to go. In truth Heaven must come to you. There is a saying I use when someone asked me I can’t wait to go to Heaven. I say why wait! The person looks at me and asks what do I mean by those words. I say why wait for Heaven when this same Heaven can come to you. The purpose of our Church is this. God wants this Heaven formed in you. That is how you go to Heaven. It first must be formed in you. However this does not mean those outside the Church never enter Heaven because I am sure the Lord gives to those who are still worthy of His Graces so that before they die this Heaven is there before them and is received so that they have this Heaven formed in them. Then of course if Purgatory still needs to be there for any soul which is need of it the same purpose is applied that Heaven must be first formed in them I mean the fullness of Heaven. I think though for any lay person brought up in the Church too much dogma can often take the place of true active worship and can cloud the mind into those things which the Holy Spirit wants to impart to us. In reality you do not need all this dogma when you want to be in a relationship with Jesus. The greatest dogma of all needs to be centered on an active willingly relationship with the Lord Jesus and His Holy Mother. Dogmas themselves do not give this relationship to you. Any relationship needs time for it to build itself up and here the Lord’s words ring true when He says to take the narrow road and to take up the invitation of the many called for it is by taking the narrow road and taking up the many called that we need to take the time to converse with the Lord Jesus especially in the virtue we call prayer. It is primarily through prayer that we enter into this relationship that is stronger than any built only on dogmas. If anything this personal touch is what is necessary perhaps lacking in so many people.

 

[steve_b]

When Jesus said the road is narrower He is not referring to Heaven here just as the other road only leads to Hell. On the contrary the Lord is referring to you becoming a saint. It seems those who want to become a saint are those who actually choose life.

Mt 7: 13-14
13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to** life**, and only a few find it.

2 words play off each other. Look at the definitions. Links are operable. Perdition (referring to hell) vs future life with Jesus. Jesus is contrasting those 2 realities.

Mt 7:13 ἀπώλειαν
Mt 7:14 ζωὴν

To your point however, it could be said, since everyone in heaven is a saint, eternal life and saint are both / and ]

 

[Sy_Noe]

NO YOU DON’T. Where are you getting this “Catholic definition” from? It is HERESY.

You need the Grace of Christian Baptism, and NOTHING ELSE. THIS is what the Church actually teaches:

Please STOP saying that you need anything more. It’s HERESY.

Having knowledge of a teaching is not the same as having knowledge. I know that Charles Manson taught that he was the second coming of the Messiah. But I don’t believe it, so I don’t “know” it. I know OF it, but I don’t know it.

When the Church speaks of knowledge, she means that you KNOW it, not that you are merely aware of it.

And, again, you misunderstand consent. It’s not whether or not you consent to skip Mass. It’s whether or not you consent to forfeit your salvation. If you have received Baptismal Grace, you can only go to hell if you WANT to go there (that’s what “consent” means). God will respect your freewill choice. But it is YOUR choice. It is not God’s choice, and it is not the Church’s choice.

Don’t worry. You don’t need to capitalize “heresy”. I’ve been accused of heresy before. And it is just another reason why I run the other direction. If it’s meant to work for the good of my soul, it doesn’t for this soul.

Anyway so now you are telling I don’t know because I don’t believe. Okay I can get that. But again I see no way I can “know” and get back into what the Catholic Church defines as “in a state of grace” if I don’t need or have faith and belief. Please don’t just say go to confession to a priest. First of all I don’t believe what I am or am not doing puts me in mortal sin and secondly I don’t believe it’s the only way I can confess the sins I do commit.

And who wants to go to hell? I don’t. And if I don’t have faith and belief to know and thus I’m not committing mortal sin, I should be able to receive communion in my current state. Assuming of course I discern the body and fast 1 hr ahead if that’s still a requirement which is not all that hard to do unless I’m not fasting while there. But yet I have seen it said on CAF that someone baptized/confirmed is not really Catholic, can not be described or call themselves a Catholic for any number of reasons.

Then there is what Steve b said. I’ve been instructed. It’s gravely serious. And just because I don’t have faith anymore doesn’t absolve me of the consequences.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Anyway so now you are telling I don’t know because I don’t believe. Okay I can get that. But again I see no way I can “know” and get back into what the Catholic Church defines as “in a state of grace” if I don’t need or have faith and belief.

Why do you think you are not in a state of Grace now? Have you ever willingly done some evil act with the full knowledge that it would send you to hell? Because that’s how the Church defines mortal sin.

Please don’t just say go to confession to a priest. First of all I don’t believe what I am or am not doing puts me in mortal sin

Then you have imperfect (< 100%) knowledge.

and secondly I don’t believe it’s the only way I can confess the sins I do commit.

Then you have imperfect (< 100%) knowledge.

And who wants to go to hell?

Someone who does not love God and want to spend eternity in his presence.

I don’t think anyone says, “when I die, I want to go to hell.” But, in our heart of hearts, not even known to our reason, that might be exactly what we want (because, deep down, we don’t love God). But God will know.

And if I don’t have faith and belief to know and I’m not committing mortal sin, I should be able to receive communion in my current state.

If your disbelief is unwilling (you want to believe but are unable) then you are welcome to receive Communion (or, to be more precise, that disbelief does not disqualify you. I don’t know if something else (mortal sin) would). If your disbelief is obstinate (a deliberate refusal to believe) then why would you want to receive in the first place?

But then there is what Steve b said. I’ve been instructed.

Apparently not very well. But that’s not your fault. And you’re hardly alone. Catechisis has been terrible these past few decades. And I think that’s the reason that so many people, like yourself, have left the Church. If non-practicing Catholics somehow formed their own church, it would be the second-largest denomination in the United States.

It’s gravely serious. And just because I don’t have faith anymore doesn’t absolve me of the consequences.

It’s gravely serious, but that doesn’t mean it’s mortally sinful (which is what steveb doesn’t get - we’ve gone round and round about this). It doesn’t absolve you of the consequences, but there are different types of consequences. If you die with unconfessed sin you will either go to hell or purgatory. You only go to hell if one of those sins was mortal. If you go to purgatory then your salvation is assured. Steveb forgets about purgatory sometimes (or maybe they didn’t cover it in his CCD class).

 

[Sy_Noe]

Why do you think you are not in a state of Grace now? Have you ever willingly done some evil act with the full knowledge that it would send you to hell? Because that’s how the Church defines mortal sin.

Then you have imperfect (< 100%) knowledge.

Then you have imperfect (< 100%) knowledge.

Someone who does not love God and want to spend eternity in his presence.

I don’t think anyone says, “when I die, I want to go to hell.” But, in our heart of hearts, not even known to our reason, that might be exactly what we want (because, deep down, we don’t love God). But God will know.

If your disbelief is unwilling (you want to believe but are unable) then you are welcome to receive Communion (or, to be more precise, that disbelief does not disqualify you. I don’t know if something else (mortal sin) would). If your disbelief is obstinate (a deliberate refusal to believe) then why would you want to receive in the first place?

Apparently not very well. But that’s not your fault. And you’re hardly alone. Catechisis has been terrible these past few decades. And I think that’s the reason that so many people, like yourself, have left the Church. If non-practicing Catholics somehow formed their own church, it would be the second-largest denomination in the United States.

It’s gravely serious, but that doesn’t mean it’s mortally sinful (which is what steveb doesn’t get - we’ve gone round and round about this). It doesn’t absolve you of the consequences, but there are different types of consequences. If you die with unconfessed sin you will either go to hell or purgatory. You only go to hell if one of those sins was mortal. If you go to purgatory then your salvation is assured. Steveb forgets about purgatory sometimes (or maybe they didn’t cover it in his CCD class).

I think I’m not in a state of grace because I read on CAF that people who miss Mass as I do or another HDofO or for all sorts of reasons should not receive Communion even if they discern the body. But yes you already established that even though I’ve been instructed and know teaching, I can’t have 100% knowledge that I am committing a gravely mortally sinful matter, since even though I know what the Church teaches. I don’t believe it. But if you and SteveB, both professing the same faith, go round and round, that only leaves me where I began on this thread. But thanks to both of you for your views. God bless you both on your own faith journeys! And peace.

 

[DavidFilmer]

But if you and SteveB, both professing the same faith, go round and round, that only leaves me where I began on this thread.

We go round and round because there is no actual Church teaching about whether it is “easy” or “hard” for a person of good faith to commit a sin that fully meets the criteria for mortal. Steve thinks it’s easy. I think it’s hard. But neither of us can back it up with actual doctrine. There’s a reason why this question goes back to the Scholastics (and maybe before them).

It’s possible that the answer to that question is not part of the Deposit of Faith, so it can never be settled (until we die and find out for sure). The Church doesn’t know everything, only what is revealed to Her.

It’s possible for hell to exist but be empty (and any Catholic is free to believe this, and some do). I don’t go that far, but steveb thinks it’s standing room only, and I don’t go that far either.

 

[chimo]

Mt 7: 13-14
13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to** life**, and only a few find it.

2 words play off each other. Look at the definitions. Links are operable. Perdition (referring to hell) vs future life with Jesus. Jesus is contrasting those 2 realities.

Mt 7:13 ἀπώλειαν
Mt 7:14 ζωὴν

To your point however, it could be said, since everyone in heaven is a saint, eternal life and saint are both / and ]

Steve you must look at those words again. Jesus said many go through the broad road but He is not saying that the majority do. This God would be an awful God if the majority had rejected Him. Look at the words about the few who find it (that is the life of the Holy Spirit). He was referring to the life that can be maintained in living out the Gospel. The fact is the majority do not ascend to finding out this life which is this saintly life but they ignore it. This does not mean God has rejected them. The doctrine of Purgatory dispels this teaching. God is very merciful. I am not as hard in this judgment of God as so many people have given Him to be. I believe that God is very merciful even with a tender mercy that would astound us. The problem I believe is how we have interpreted the Gospel into this incredible judgment without adding how much mercy is available. We forget the mercy! Why do you think Jesus talks the way He does? Let us look at these two aspects from two people, the devil and Jesus. Jesus speaks you can say harshly against sin warning about its implications it will have on us. The devil however says go ahead what harm can it do to you. When we do sin who then is the one who will torment us but it is now the devil and who is the one who wants to give us mercy but the Lord who is now gentle towards us sinners. We forget too much adding the mercy to this interpretations of judgments that we find in the Gospels. We need to balance this judgment with the incredible mercy of God.

 

[steve_b]

Steve you must look at those words again. Jesus said many go through the broad road but He is not saying that the majority do.

Jesus gave 2 realities for the end.

• few find the narrow gate to heaven
• many find the wide gate to destruction / hell

All who go to Purgatory ultimately go to heaven. So they would be counted in with the few who go to heaven.

That means the rest go to hell. There are no other options
c:

This God would be an awful God if the majority had rejected Him.

An example of that already happened. Remember the bread of life discourse? The 5000 Jesus fed the day before followed Him across the lake. Jesus gave them the rest of the story. And “they” left Him because they didn’t believe Him. How many of “5000” do you suppose left Him that day? After “THEY” left Him, who did Jesus address? Jesus turns to the 12 and said, “Are you going to leave me too”? Where are the rest of the 5000? Are any left? If there were Jesus didn’t address them. It sounds like all 5000 left Him.
c:

Look at the words about the few who find it (that is the life of the Holy Spirit). He was referring to the life that can be maintained in living out the Gospel. The fact is the majority do not ascend to finding out this life which is this saintly life but they ignore it. This does not mean God has rejected them.

The words used contrast the difference between everlasting perdition and everlasting life.

The few receive everlasting life, ζωὴν , i.e. heaven. The majority to everlasting destruction ἀπώλειαν . Open the links. In particular, see the definition of that word for destruction. It means b. in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, the lot of those excluded from the kingdom of God:]. That describes hell.

Let’s not forget, Jesus is the one giving us that heads up. He ought to know considering He’s the one who will judge.
c:

The doctrine of Purgatory dispels this teaching. God is very merciful. I am not as hard in this judgment of God as so many people have given Him to be. I believe that God is very merciful even with a tender mercy that would astound us. The problem I believe is how we have interpreted the Gospel into this incredible judgment without adding how much mercy is available. We forget the mercy! Why do you think Jesus talks the way He does? Let us look at these two aspects from two people, the devil and Jesus. Jesus speaks you can say harshly against sin warning about its implications it will have on us. The devil however says go ahead what harm can it do to you. When we do sin who then is the one who will torment us but it is now the devil and who is the one who wants to give us mercy but the Lord who is now gentle towards us sinners. We forget too much adding the mercy to this interpretations of judgments that we find in the Gospels. We need to balance this judgment with the incredible mercy of God.

His mercy is demonstrated in His patience with us, and the 7 sacraments He instituted and gave His Church to instill grace in us.

Let’s not overlook, that Jesus talked about hell more than anyone. Why does He do that if everybody is going through the narrow gate, to heaven? Does He scare people with hell needlessly? No. He can’t do that, because that would be dishonest, and against His nature.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Jesus gave 2 realities for the end.

• few find the narrow gate to heaven
• many find the wide gate to destruction / hell

All who go to Purgatory ultimately go to heaven. So they would be counted in with the few who go to heaven.

That means the rest go to hell. There are no other options

Steve, you’ve been ignoring me. I even baited you a little bit with the whole purgatory/CCD thing. But I didn’t even get a nibble That’s uncharacteristic restraint.

You’ve been dabbling in a bit of personal interpretation of Scripture, namely:

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [Matt 7:13]

You are, of course, free to personally interpret any passage of Scripture in any way that is not contrary to Catholic Doctrine and is not obviously silly. Your interpretation passes both tests.

But you added a phrase to the passage. Namely, “hell.”

There is another possible interpretation of this passage that is ALSO perfectly compatible with Scripture and Catholic Tradition, but does not draw the conclusion that you make (ie, “destruction” and “hell” are the same thing).

(Sy Noe, do you see what I’m talking about? We’ve been doing this dance for years. Theologians have been doing this dance for seven centuries or more).

This alternate interpretation involves purgatory, which you have remembered (but I’m gonna stretch your recollection somewhat).

The Church teaches that SOME people who die go straight to heaven. Our Lady is the most obvious example, but this would also include Baptized persons who have not committed mortal sin, as well as Saints who have achieved spiritual perfection. On this doctrine, we have no disagreement.

I think we would agree that MOST souls destined for heaven do not go straight there. They spend some “time” in purgatory. The PURPOSE of purgatory is to eliminate (destroy) any sinful proclivities.

 

[littlestsouls2]

The Church - or rather, God through the Church - gives us the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the Sacrament of Baptism, the Sacrament of Reconciliation, Extreme Unction, sound doctrine, indulgences, the Feast of Divine Mercy, liturgical prayer, the Rosary, the Scapular, the Blessed Sacrament, the Five First Saturdays, the First Nine Fridays and a host of other graces - each of which are powerful means to help us save our souls.

So, in answer to your question: ‘Does the Catholic Church make it too hard to get into Heaven?’ I would have to offer a resounding “NO!”

“Likewise, if any sinner were so rooted in diabolical deeds that he was standing at the very brink of destruction, he could still obtain forgiveness and mercy, if he called upon God with contrition and a will to improve.”
– Jesus to St. Bridget

 

[DavidFilmer]

The Church teaches that SOME people who die go straight to heaven. Our Lady is the most obvious example, but this would also include Baptized persons who have not committed mortal sin, as well as Saints who have achieved spiritual perfection.

I want to correct myself. I got the middle part wrong. A Baptized person who has not committed mortal sin does not (necessarily) go straight to heaven. He is assured salvation, but he is not assured a non-stop ticket to heaven.

A newly Baptized person who dies, however, gets a non-stop ticket.

 

[steve_b]

Steve, you’ve been ignoring me. I even baited you a little bit with the whole purgatory/CCD thing. But I didn’t even get a nibble That’s uncharacteristic restraint.

I know. Maybe before he goes back to Rome, pope Francis will canonize ME for such galactic restraint on my part.
D:

You’ve been dabbling in a bit of personal interpretation of Scripture, namely:

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [Matt 7:13]

You are, of course, free to personally interpret any passage of Scripture in any way that is not contrary to Catholic Doctrine and is not obviously silly. Your interpretation passes both tests.

But you added a phrase to the passage. Namely, “hell.”

There is another possible interpretation of this passage that is ALSO perfectly compatible with Scripture and Catholic Tradition, but does not draw the conclusion that you make (ie, “destruction” and “hell” are the same thing).

open this link ἀπώλειαν

You’ll notice I included (b. in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, the lot of those excluded from the kingdom of God: ) that describes hell.
D:

(Sy Noe, do you see what I’m talking about? We’ve been doing this dance for years. Theologians have been doing this dance for seven centuries or more).

This alternate interpretation involves purgatory, which you have remembered (but I’m gonna stretch your recollection somewhat).

No it doesn’t. Purgatory

• doesn’t destroy or cause one the loss of eternal life.
• doesn’t cause eternal misery, perdition,
• doesn’t exclude those from the kingdom of God:

After purification, the soul enters heaven.

ἀπώλειαν describes hell not purgatory

 

[DavidFilmer]

open this link ἀπώλειαν

But wouldn’t your case be SO MUCH STRONGER if you could point me to this link instead: κρίμα

Because that’s the word that’s usually translated “damnation.”

ἀπώλειαν is used nine times. In all nine instances, if you substitute the word “purgatory” the passage still makes sense.

Maybe this is why the Latin Fathers had this idea that purgatory was Hell Lite.

You’ll notice I included (b. in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, the lot of those excluded from the kingdom of God: that describes hell.

Those in purgatory are excluded from the Kingdom of God (for a while). When you think of the Kingdom of God, do you think of heaven, or do you include purgatory? If you include purgatory then I think you would be the only guy to do so.

I say that ἀπώλειαν could refer to either hell or purgatory, but I don’t think you have a strong enough case to claim it cannot refer to purgatory (especially when it leads to an idea that the Church does not teach). You’re cherry-picking the concordance, selecting the definition/interpretation that is most hell-like.

Purgatory * doesn’t destroy or cause one the loss of eternal life.

Hell doesn’t do that either.

• doesn’t cause eternal misery, perdition,

No, the misery and perdition are temporary. So?

• doesn’t exclude those from the kingdom of God

It does while you are there.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I know. Maybe before he goes back to Rome, pope Francis will canonize ME for such galactic restraint on my part.

Ummm, I’m pretty sure you would have to be, ummm, dead for that to happen. Is there something you’re not telling us?

 

[Memaw]

Thank you for otherwise speaking on my behalf. But I got that one right also.

In a dire situation (bombs are dropping), a priest may validly pronounce absolution to a large crowd, with nobody confessing anything.

A person facing death without a priest may receive the Grace of Sacramental absolution provided he has true (perfect) contrition and intends to attend Confession as soon as possible if he survives (but the Grace is still operative if he survives). This Grace is not assured, because only God knows if we have true contrition (we don’t even know ourselves). But it is possible.

You give these broad statements without any explanation or qualifications for doing so. If one receives General Absolution and lives, they are “required” to go to private Confession as soon as possible. Otherwise that Confession is invalid. Don’t forget to tell them that too. God Bless, Memaw