does the Catholic Church make it too hard to get into heaven?

[zz912]

But a person can not receive anyway when they are not there. And I am not going to be somewhere on a regular basis where I am told I am not good enough in my current state to receive Jesus. Even if I were to discern His Body and Blood. I consider how Jesus associated with many different people. And even sat at a table and broke bread with those He surely must have known would be a doubter, a denier and a betrayer.

And when we used to recite these words for decades, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed,” and more recently after the words were changed to “Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed”… and if I sensed a healing and calling. And knowing Jesus said He would turn no one away who is called. Yet others say no. You can not present yourself to Jesus.

But that’s ok as I don’t want you to feel sorry to hear this. As even if I have been driven so far away that I were to never receive the Eucharist again in a Catholic church, I leave this thread in belief that Jesus comes for sinners not merely for the holy to receive Him. And in that I can rest in peace with a contrite heart.

You’re twisting what the Church teaches. The Church doesn’t teach we are “good” enough to receive Jesus. The Church teaches the opposite, and has, as you noted, in the Mass a statement for all of us to recite so that we don’t forget it. We are not “worthy” to receive. But we are allowed to receive when we are in a state of grace, and when we are in actual communion with the Church.

This last portion is the reason you cannot receive, because you proclaim that you are NOT in communion with the Church. This is not an attack on you, but merely a statement of fact. I WANT you to be in communion with the Church and to receive! I hope and pray that the teachings of the Church that you have issue with, that they can be resolved and you can embrace the Church as the Church wants to embrace you.

 

[zz912]

Throw any sin at me, and I can construct a scenario (which is perhaps unlikely, but possible) in which that sin could be mortal in nature.

My child lying about completing her homework. Lay out how that could be a mortal sin for her.

So I’m the guy that thinks the requirement of “grave matter” is superfluous. I’m the guy that thinks ANY sin can be mortal, given sufficient (ie, full) knowledge and intent. And I’m also the guy that thinks it is “hard” for a person of good will to commit mortal sin.

And yet Jesus says that “few” will be saved, and “many” will be damned. Mortal sin is quite easy to commit.

If you want to call me a heretic, you could point to the first opinion (that ANY sin can be mortal), but not the second (that it is “hard” for a person of good will to fall into mortal sin).

Just so we are clear, the Church and Jesus teach that hell is not empty.

 

[steve_b]

Thank you and ZZ.

And I do understand it suggests that to you. But I know it does not suggest that to the Catholic Church and is not what She teaches. The Catholic Church’s answer is actually that She claims even those of us less holy or faithful. And I have had this confirmed by one believed by the faithful to be an apostolic successor. Non practicing, yes perhaps, and it is that which I maintained including in my “bio”. That I left the practice of the faith. But canon law does not currently recognize that someone can leave the Catholic Church.

That’s like saying one can’t leave salvation, which of course is also false.

Ed Peters is a canon lawyer
If I’m baptized as a Catholic,
Sy:

I could call myself whatever I may in the future. I could even attend mainline faith communities. But to the Catholic Church I will be a Catholic, excommunicated or not.

Read the link above
Sy:

But a person can not receive anyway when they are not there. And I am not going to be somewhere on a regular basis where I am told I am not good enough in my current state to receive Jesus. Even if I were to discern His Body and Blood. I consider how Jesus associated with many different people. And even sat at a table and broke bread with those He surely must have known would be a doubter, a denier and a betrayer.

#22
Sy:

And when we used to recite these words for decades, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed,” and more recently after the words were changed to “Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed”… and if I sensed a healing and calling. And knowing Jesus said He would turn no one away who is called. Yet others say no. You can not present yourself to Jesus.

The Roman centurion ( a pagan ) who said those words to Jesus was in a position of authority himself. He knew exactly what he was saying to Jesus because the centurion could make happen what he himself commanded. He knew authority and knew obedience to authority and he respected and expected both from the orders he gave. He saw that authority in Jesus. And when Jesus saw that recognition coming from the centurion, Jesus said I have not seen faith like this in all Judea.

The pagan showed more faith than all the people of the time showed, who “claimed” to have faith.
SY:

But that’s ok as I don’t want you to feel sorry to hear this. As even if I have been driven so far away that I were to never receive the Eucharist again in a Catholic church, I leave this thread in belief that Jesus comes for sinners not merely for the holy to receive Him. And in that I can rest in peace with a contrite heart.

What you’ve said doesn’t sound like a contrite heart.

 

[phil19034]

My child lying about completing her homework. Lay out how that could be a mortal sin for her.

And yet Jesus says that “few” will be saved, and “many” will be damned. Mortal sin is quite easy to commit.

Just so we are clear, the Church and Jesus teach that hell is not empty.

According to my confession app, a premeditated lie can be mortal.

 

[DavidFilmer]

My child lying about completing her homework. Lay out how that could be a mortal sin for her.

I don’t know how old your child is. Depending on her maturity, she may be incapable of mortal sin (as an infant is incapable).

If she has passed the “age of reason” (which the US Bishops consider to happen at about eight years of age) then lying about her homework is no different than lying about anything. Surely lying (also known as fraud) can rise to the occasion of mortal sin, given sufficient (full) knowledge and consent.

And yet Jesus says that “few” will be saved, and “many” will be damned. Mortal sin is quite easy to commit.

Yeah, Steve and I have been debating that point. I say that few will be immediately saved, and many will suffer perdition… err… suffering in purgatory. Neither Steve nor I can point to actual Church doctrine to support our arguments, because there is no such doctrine (though Steve claims his personal interpretation of Scripture is Church doctrine - aye yie yie).

Just so we are clear, the Church and Jesus teach that hell is not empty.

I agree. But, just so we are clear, the Church and Jesus do NOT teach that anybody is actually in hell either.

A faithful Catholic is free to believe that hell exists but is empty. I don’t believe that, but I don’t think hell is as densely populated as you and Steve seem to think.

I do think purgatory is rather densely populated.

 

[steve_b]

Yeah, Steve and I have been debating that point. I say that few will be immediately saved, and many will suffer perdition… err… suffering in purgatory.

perdition is NOT purgatory. Perdition is hell
D:

Neither Steve nor I can point to actual Church doctrine to support our arguments, because there is no such doctrine (though Steve claims his personal interpretation of Scripture is Church doctrine - aye yie yie).

I always give evidence (not my opinion) for what I post.
D:

I agree. But, just so we are clear, the Church and Jesus do NOT teach that anybody is actually in hell either.

Luke 16:19-31

these are real people Jesus is talking about.
D:

A faithful Catholic is free to believe that hell exists but is empty.

nonsense. That would take all fear away from even going there. That is a completely irresponsible thing to say.

Hell:
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=hell&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

particularly these distinctions
633 , 1036 , 1056

When it says “GCD 69” for hell, in 1056 , that references the

General Catechetical Directory
D:

I don’t think hell is as densely populated as you and Steve seem to think.

Jesus already answered that. He doesn’t lead us astray. He doesn’t scare us needlessly. He can’t, He’s God.

He says few make it to heaven. That doesn’t bode well for the rest.

Mt 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
D:

I do think purgatory is rather densely populated.

But they are saved and ultimately go to heaven. Unlike the rest who were on the road to perdition, and NOT saved, and don’t go to purgatory but go to hell.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I left this thread but saw I was replied to. So just to tie up any loose ends on my part for Ambrose, ZZ, and Steve…

With regard to our earlier links, yes I previously had actually already read Ed Peters saying canon law does not define formal defection for leaving the Catholic Church but yet he personally still thinks it clearly exists.

While Fr Grondin on the otherhand states, “The Code of Canon Law currently does not recognize that someone can leave the Catholic Church. You might become a non-practicing member, but the Church’s laws consider anyone baptized Catholic to always be Catholic.”

But even if we take Ed Peter’s approach, attendance even over a long period of time at another denomination’s services does not constitute a formal act of defection. And he states neither does not practicing the Catholic faith even over a long period of time constitute an act of defection. (Yes I know the CC is not seen as a denomination but you get what Ed Peters and I mean by it)

But other than those facts, after that Peters seems to leave a lot of ambiguity. He states what is really needed is for Rome to interpret what constitutes an act of formal defection. But then of course Peters takes it upon himself to try. Yet in his defense even he uses such words as “generally accepted” and what “might” constitute such an act. Clearly he does not know as he awaits on Rome. In the meantime then I can only assume as Fr Grondin said, that the Catholic Church’s law remains, once baptized Catholic, always a Catholic. (Don’t get me wrong though. I’m fine with calling anyone whatever it is they call themselves)

But in any case, I know confession to a priest is a great source of comfort and grace for so many of the Catholic faithful. Although at the same time I’ve seen it said the confession lines are not all that long. And I know many parishes do not even offer much in terms of regularly scheduled confession times anymore. I don’t know why this is unless it is because the lines aren’t as long for confession as they are for the Eucharist. I know any Catholic Mass I’ve ever attended, the line to Jesus is long. I don’t know though if they are good/worthy enough to receive Him right at that moment and called to do so, or maybe many do not proclaim whether or not they are in full communion. I know the Episcopal Church has a saying about confession to a priest, “all may, some should, none must”. And that seems about right to me. As I just know for me personally, honestly confession to a priest just never did much for me. As I just never sensed the peace and grace and forgiveness that I do when directly confessing to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Not as an enemy but as a friend. But I do find it interesting that you think you know my heart. I can imagine you might believe that because I am not in full communion with the Catholic Church. But I can’t bring myself to believing I know another’s heart. Whether the heart is of a faithful Catholic, a non practicing Catholic, or non Catholic. It’s simply too far above my pay grade to do so. So hopefully I can now again depart this thread but leaving my heart’s contriteness and it’s temperature for Him to only God. And may He bless you each with peace as well.

 

[steve_b]

I left this thread but saw I was replied to. So just to tie up any loose ends on my part for Ambrose, ZZ, and Steve…

With regard to our earlier links, yes I previously had actually already read Ed Peters saying canon law does not define formal defection for leaving the Catholic Church but yet he personally still thinks it clearly exists.

While Fr Grondin on the otherhand states, “The Code of Canon Law currently does not recognize that someone can leave the Catholic Church. You might become a non-practicing member, but the Church’s laws consider anyone baptized Catholic to always be Catholic.”

But even if we take Ed Peter’s approach, attendance even over a long period of time at another denomination’s services does not constitute a formal act of defection. And he states neither does not practicing the Catholic faith even over a long period of time constitute an act of defection. (Yes I know the CC is not seen as a denomination but you get what Ed Peters and I mean by it)

But other than those facts, after that Peters seems to leave a lot of ambiguity. He states what is really needed is for Rome to interpret what constitutes an act of formal defection. But then of course Peters takes it upon himself to try. Yet in his defense even he uses such words as “generally accepted” and what “might” constitute such an act. Clearly he does not know as he awaits on Rome. In the meantime then I can only assume as Fr Grondin said, that the Catholic Church’s law remains, once baptized Catholic, always a Catholic. (Don’t get me wrong though. I’m fine with calling anyone whatever it is they call themselves)

But in any case, I know confession to a priest is a great source of comfort and grace for so many of the Catholic faithful. Although at the same time I’ve seen it said the confession lines are not all that long. And I know many parishes do not even offer much in terms of regularly scheduled confession times anymore. I don’t know why this is unless it is because the lines aren’t as long for confession as they are for the Eucharist. I know any Catholic Mass I’ve ever attended, the line to Jesus is long. I don’t know though if they are good/worthy enough to receive Him right at that moment and called to do so, or maybe many do not proclaim whether or not they are in full communion. I know the Episcopal Church has a saying about confession to a priest, “all may, some should, none must”. And that seems about right to me. As I just know for me personally, honestly confession to a priest just never did much for me. As I just never sensed the peace and grace and forgiveness that I do when directly confessing to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Not as an enemy but as a friend. But I do find it interesting that you think you know my heart. I can imagine you might believe that because I am not in full communion with the Catholic Church. But I can’t bring myself to believing I know another’s heart. Whether the heart is of a faithful Catholic, a non practicing Catholic, or non Catholic. It’s simply too far above my pay grade to do so. So hopefully I can now again depart this thread but leaving my heart’s contriteness and it’s temperature for Him to only God. And may He bless you each with peace as well.

For clarification, they said, once baptized always baptized. They said one can’t become unbaptized.

They did NOT say one can’t leave the Catholic Church. Of course one can leave. Just like someone can leave salvation. For example, “once saved always saved” is the same kind of notion and it is false. It’s a myth.

As far as one leaving, or one who becomes a non practicing Catholic, that is hugely dangerous for their soul if they die in that state. That’s why I quoted scripture that gives dire warnings to the one who who does that and neglects the Eucharist and all it signifies and calls us to be… #22

 

[Sy_Noe]

For clarification, they said, once baptized always baptized. They said one can’t become unbaptized.

They did NOT say one can’t leave the Catholic Church. Of course one can leave. Just like someone can leave salvation. For example, “once saved always saved” is the same kind of notion and it is false. It’s a myth.

As far as one leaving, or one who becomes a non practicing Catholic, that is hugely dangerous for their soul if they die in that state. That’s why I quoted scripture that gives dire warnings to the one who who does that and neglects the Eucharist and all it signifies and calls us to be… #22

I don’t know who “they” are but it was very much said once baptized Catholic always Catholic.

“The Code of Canon Law currently does not recognize that someone can leave the Catholic Church. You might become a non-practicing member, but the Church’s laws consider anyone baptized Catholic to always be Catholic”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12648280&postcount=2

Now obviously anyone on this forum can disagree with this Church law all they want as obviously I haven’t the power within me to change how anyone thinks. We will simply though have to agree to disagree in this case then. As I find it less than fruitful for my faith walk to keep going around in circles. And that will have to be the end of the discussion for me on this thread about it. And I can only hope it is in the spirit of the Golden Rule that I have dialogued about this.

 

[zz912]

I don’t know how old your child is. Depending on her maturity, she may be incapable of mortal sin (as an infant is incapable).

If she has passed the “age of reason” (which the US Bishops consider to happen at about eight years of age) then lying about her homework is no different than lying about anything. Surely lying (also known as fraud) can rise to the occasion of mortal sin, given sufficient (full) knowledge and consent.

Mortal sin also must involve grave matter. Not completing homework does not rise to the level of grave matter. So you have not shown that this sin could possibly be mortal.

Yeah, Steve and I have been debating that point. I say that few will be immediately saved, and many will suffer perdition… err… suffering in purgatory. Neither Steve nor I can point to actual Church doctrine to support our arguments, because there is no such doctrine (though Steve claims his personal interpretation of Scripture is Church doctrine - aye yie yie).

Jesus actually says that many will ENTER through the gate. That means they actually ENTER hell.

I agree. But, just so we are clear, the Church and Jesus do NOT teach that anybody is actually in hell either.

Yes, yes they do. I posted twice in this thread where it is explicitly taught that people DO go to hell, and they really, truly, actually ARE in hell. This belief you stated is contradictory to what Jesus and the Church teach.

A faithful Catholic is free to believe that hell exists but is empty.

No, they are no free to believe that. The Church and Jesus both teach that hell is populated.

I don’t believe that, but I don’t think hell is as densely populated as you and Steve seem to think.

I don’t hope for a densely populated hell, but there are “many” in hell, as Jesus taught. Wishing people were not damned in no way can negate the objective truth that many are damned.

I do think purgatory is rather densely populated.

I hope you are correct.

 

[zz912]

But in any case, I know confession to a priest is a great source of comfort and grace for so many of the Catholic faithful.

If only more took advantage of it!

Although at the same time I’ve seen it said the confession lines are not all that long. And I know many parishes do not even offer much in terms of regularly scheduled confession times anymore.

Personally I believe it’s because the priests and bishops have done a very poor job of teaching the faith, especially the need for Confession. I’ve yet to hear a priest tell a congregation that they shouldn’t go to Eucharist if they haven’t been to Confession.

I don’t know why this is unless it is because the lines aren’t as long for confession as they are for the Eucharist.

This is true, and a very sad state of affairs. The Church has not stressed the need for Confession for decades, and it shows.

I know any Catholic Mass I’ve ever attended, the line to Jesus is long. I don’t know though if they are good/worthy enough to receive Him right at that moment and called to do so, or maybe many do not proclaim whether or not they are in full communion.

For many receiving, they should not be doing so, and actually bring down judgment on their souls instead of grace because they are committing blasphemy.

I know the Episcopal Church has a saying about confession to a priest, “all may, some should, none must”.

I don’t see what’s wrong with saying ALL should and must go. Even the saints who had no mortal sins all their lives still went to Confession. The Church teaches that you must go to Confession at least once a year if you have committed mortal sin. Since virtually all have done so, I don’t see where it benefits anyone to have this type of statement. (note: I realize this is from the Episcopal Church and not the CC.)

And that seems about right to me. As I just know for me personally, honestly confession to a priest just never did much for me. As I just never sensed the peace and grace and forgiveness that I do when directly confessing to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Be careful. The reality of forgiveness of sins is not dependent upon our feelings or senses. And for the CC, when you confess to a priest, you ARE confessing directly to Jesus, as He is the one who forgives (through the priest).

Not as an enemy but as a friend. But I do find it interesting that you think you know my heart.

Don’t know if this was intended for me. I don’t believe I said as much. I don’t know your heart and don’t claim to.

I can imagine you might believe that because I am not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

This was the reason I said you should not receive Communion in the CC, because you deny communion with the Church.

And may He bless you each with peace as well.

Blessings to you as well.

 

[Church_Militant]

As I said before, the church makes it no more difficult to attain Heaven than Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ Himself does. If anything, the sacraments make it somewhat easier by offering these wonderful conduits of grace for us.

How Is A Catholic Saved? sums up the essentials of scripture on salvation for us.

Enjoy and God bless you all.