Does the Catholic Church permit women to wear chasubles?

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tee_eff_em:
With all due respect, do you have a source governing this? It certainly differs from my experiences. :confused:

(in fact, Redemptionis Sacramentum #124, quoted above, implies contraindication, no?)

tee
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You are correct #209 in the GIRM and 124 in RS state that Concelebrants may choose not to wear the Chasuble and opt for a stole over the Alb. It would be proper for main celebrant and concelebrants to wear the Chasuble. Going through in my head the many Masses I have been to that were concelebrated I don’t recall ever seeing the concelebrants wear one.

In relation to the original question it was noted that even Priests who are not concelebrating and only acting as Deacon or MC do not wear the stole or chasuble. Hence only those who are actually celebrating or concelebrating the Mass wear the chasuble. Which would obviously eliminate this lay woman.
 
Since this is my diocese I know who is being discussed. She wears an alb. It’s cream colored and very full, but it’s an alb. She does not wear a chasuble and Bishop Brown would never allow such a thing. She does serve as an MC (Master of Ceremonies) and, in that role, would process in in front of the bishop and after any concelebrating priests since she would be the one to remove his miter and take his crozier. Since the current secretary to the bishop who normally functions as his MC is becoming the rector of the new cathedral parish in July, I would expect to see more of her rather than less.

Deacon Ed
 
Br. Rich SFO:
In relation to the original question it was noted that even Priests who are not concelebrating and only acting as Deacon or MC do not wear the stole or chasuble. Hence only those who are actually celebrating or concelebrating the Mass wear the chasuble.
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that has been my experience as well.

I have seen a few Masses with Cardinal Maida, our Ordinary. He would usually have a few priests concelebrating with him, all wearing the chasuble, and a deacon wearing the dalmatic.

But the Cardinal’s secretary (who is a priest) is usually dressed in a cassock and surplus only and attends the Cardinal (bringing or removing his miter and crozier as needed, preparing the altar etc…)
 
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BillyT92679:
I think the only laypeople who should be vested in anything should be the Altar boys, wearing cassocks and surplices.
I know an alb is a liturgical vestment, but to me it’s too clerical for a layman to wear, even if it’s just a kid.
Only clerics should be sitting in positions of prominence around the Altar. Not laypeople
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An alb is the vestment proper to ALL baptised Catholic Christians. Conversely, the cassock and surplice are clerical garments that have long been on loan to altar boys…
 
Keep in mind it is the STOLE that is the sign of the priesthood – not the chasable or the Roman collar.

It seems fairly common for some adult female altar boys to try and push the limits. One here locally wore a very Protestant-looking full sized scapular over her alb that raised many questions. When she continued (after repeated warnings) and finally added a “scarf” (it was a priests’ stole) she was barred from taking part in sanctuary-based ministries.

I also saw a female reader wear a white alb and stole on the televised Mass from St. Anne’s Basilica. I e-mailed the producer afterwards and pointed out the problem. They acknowledged the problem and said it was a difficult one to deal with because the reader claimed it was part of her African spirituality.

I have never seen her read since. Maybe my e-mail was the ammo they needed to stop this abuse…

Interestingly enough, I have never seen an adult male altar boy do this…
 
Deacon Ed:
Since this is my diocese I know who is being discussed. She wears an alb. It’s cream colored and very full, but it’s an alb. She does not wear a chasuble and Bishop Brown would never allow such a thing. She does serve as an MC (Master of Ceremonies) and, in that role, would process in in front of the bishop and after any concelebrating priests since she would be the one to remove his miter and take his crozier. Since the current secretary to the bishop who normally functions as his MC is becoming the rector of the new cathedral parish in July, I would expect to see more of her rather than less.

Deacon Ed
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Dear Deacon Ed,

Thanks for clarifying. It appeared as though she was wearing the same garb as the other concelebrants. Do they also wear the same alb as the one she wears? This alb that you speak of has the same collar and color as the garb the concelebrants are wearing. A friend of told me that she has seen this same woman wearing a stole on a couple occasions, I have never witnessed this though. When she is processing with the other priests and appears to be wearing the same vestments and because she is the only woman I think it is confusing to people. To some it may seem as though this is a peek in to the future for those who would like to see women ordained.
Deacon Ed:
Bishop Brown would never allow such a thing.
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It’s sad to say that there are many other things that our bishop has allowed in the past and is still allowing. Some of these abuses are not only allowed but promoted, sometimes mandated. There are many liturgical abuses (habitual use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, Precious Blood in glass chalices, refusing the faithful communion because they are kneeling, etc., etc.) going on in most of our parishes in the Diocese of Orange its just that so many people are not knowledgeable enough of the faith to notice an abuse when its right in front of their faces and the people who do point out the abuses are ignored.

God bless
 
Pariah Pirana:
An alb is the vestment proper to ALL baptised Catholic Christians. Conversely, the cassock and surplice are clerical garments that have long been on loan to altar boys…
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Actually, cassocks and surplices are “choir vestments” that are proper to both literally the choir and also to clerics when they are not celebrating liturgical events. That is, when Cardinals, Bishops, and Monsignori are attending Mass or a devotional practice but are not concelebrating. Albs are specific to Liturgical celebrations and are worn by every ordained minister who celebrates… To me, there is absolutely nothing wrong with an Altar boy wearing a cassock or a surplice, it is our tradition in the Latin Rite. Wearing an alb, even if worn without cincture, gives off the impression that everyone is ordained in a way that leads to a misunderstanding of Holy Orders. A Priesthood of the people needs to be clearly delineated from the ordained Priesthood.
 
The alb that she wears is part of a common set of albs that are found at the cathedral. I know that at the ordination of our new deacons last Saturday she was vested in one of them, a layman trained as an MC was vested in one. The bishop’s secretary was wearing cassock and surplice which is what he, as a priest, should wear.

I doubt that this woman would ever wear a stole – she knows the rules and seems quite willing to follow them.

If glass chalices are still being used, they are not at the cathedral or at any celebration I’ve been to with the bishop. Using Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion is not an abuse – they are permitted by the Church. Since communion under both species is mandated in the diocese, the use of EMHCs is necessary to keep communion times reasonable.

I’ve heard of only one case of a communicant being refused communion. The person was kneeling – but I don’t know that the kneeling was the cause. I’ve seen the bishop give communion to persons who were kneeling (although he does ask them to stand).

BTW, for the person who asked if this was a priest with long hair – no. And, with the hair color of the person under discussion, she would stand out!

BTW, when I serve as an MC for any of the bishops I just wear an alb, no stole. I do have cassock and surplice for use when I serve as an MC at my own parish.

Deacon Ed
 
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BillyT92679:
Actually, cassocks and surplices are “choir vestments” that are proper to both literally the choir and also to clerics when they are not celebrating liturgical events. That is, when Cardinals, Bishops, and Monsignori are attending Mass or a devotional practice but are not concelebrating. Albs are specific to Liturgical celebrations and are worn by every ordained minister who celebrates… To me, there is absolutely nothing wrong with an Altar boy wearing a cassock or a surplice, it is our tradition in the Latin Rite. Wearing an alb, even if worn without cincture, gives off the impression that everyone is ordained in a way that leads to a misunderstanding of Holy Orders. A Priesthood of the people needs to be clearly delineated from the ordained Priesthood.
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Since the alb is the “baptismal garment” it is proper to all the baptized. The cassock and surplice is really for the clergy and, by tradition, the altar servers. It should not be worn by the laity. It is called “choir dress” – but that refers to an old term in which the liturgy of the hours was sung, and the clerics formed “the choir.” This was as opposed to what we today call a choir but which was originally called the “schola.”

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
The alb that she wears is part of a common set of albs that are found at the cathedral. I know that at the ordination of our new deacons last Saturday she was vested in one of them, a layman trained as an MC was vested in one. The bishop’s secretary was wearing cassock and surplice which is what he, as a priest, should wear.

I doubt that this woman would ever wear a stole – she knows the rules and seems quite willing to follow them.

If glass chalices are still being used, they are not at the cathedral or at any celebration I’ve been to with the bishop. Using Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion is not an abuse – they are permitted by the Church. Since communion under both species is mandated in the diocese, the use of EMHCs is necessary to keep communion times reasonable.

I’ve heard of only one case of a communicant being refused communion. The person was kneeling – but I don’t know that the kneeling was the cause. I’ve seen the bishop give communion to persons who were kneeling (although he does ask them to stand).

Deacon Ed
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Respectfully, Deacon Ed I’m not all that sure that our administration does follow the rules in this diocese.

This is a fairly recent article

http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2004/0409cz.htm
 
Deacon Ed:
Since the alb is the “baptismal garment” it is proper to all the baptized. The cassock and surplice is really for the clergy and, by tradition, the altar servers. It should not be worn by the laity. It is called “choir dress” – but that refers to an old term in which the liturgy of the hours was sung, and the clerics formed “the choir.” This was as opposed to what we today call a choir but which was originally called the “schola.”

Deacon Ed
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Just to clarify, in my original post, I said that I think the only people who should be vested at all, (besides the clerics themselves of course) are the Altar Servers. I don’t think a lay Ecclesial Minister, regardless of sex, should be vested in anything other than nice laymen clothes. I’ve seen a directly proportional relationship between the level of orthodoxy and what the Altar Servers are vested in. If they’re wearing cassocks and surplices, I’ve found it’s an orthodox parish, if they are wearing albs, it’s more progressive. I’ve found progressive Priests leverage the fact that albs are baptismal garments as a sort of imprimatur to remove the clear line of demarcation between the ordained Priesthood and the priesthood of the people. It’s an odd quirk, but it’s something that I have seen.
 
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BillyT92679:
Actually, cassocks and surplices are “choir vestments” that are proper to both literally the choir and also to clerics when they are not celebrating liturgical events. That is, when Cardinals, Bishops, and Monsignori are attending Mass or a devotional practice but are not concelebrating. Albs are specific to Liturgical celebrations and are worn by every ordained minister who celebrates… To me, there is absolutely nothing wrong with an Altar boy wearing a cassock or a surplice, it is our tradition in the Latin Rite. Wearing an alb, even if worn without cincture, gives off the impression that everyone is ordained in a way that leads to a misunderstanding of Holy Orders. A Priesthood of the people needs to be clearly delineated from the ordained Priesthood.
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Again, the alb is the vestment proper to all baptised Catholic Christians. Our first alb is often our white baptismal gown.

Cardinal and bishops never wear surplices. They wear rochets (close-fitting surplices-like vestments) and mozettas (“shoulder capes”) along with cassocks as their choir dress.

Cassocks and surplices are not proper for choir members – except within some sects of Protestantism. That’s not where the “choice dress” moniker stems from.

A cincture has nothing at all to do with Holy Orders.

No one ever suggested there was anything wrong with the long time tradition of loaning the garb of cassocks and surplices to altar boys. However, because they are priestly garments (one liturgical, one not) many suggest that it would be an abomination to vest female altar servers in a cassock and surplice.
 
Deacon Ed:
. She does serve as an MC (Master of Ceremonies) and, in that role, would process in in front of the bishop and after any concelebrating priests since she would be the one to remove his miter and take his crozier. Since the current secretary to the bishop who normally functions as his MC is becoming the rector of the new cathedral parish in July, I would expect to see more of her rather than less.

Deacon Ed
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They role you describe it that of the Bishop’s Secretary. If the current Secretary is becoming a rector, what about the new Secretary?

Or perhaps a deacon?
 
Pariah Pirana:
Again, the alb is the vestment proper to all baptised Catholic Christians. Our first alb is often our white baptismal gown.

Cardinal and bishops never wear surplices. They wear rochets (close-fitting surplices-like vestments) and mozettas (“shoulder capes”) along with cassocks as their choir dress.

Cassocks and surplices are not proper for choir members – except within some sects of Protestantism. That’s not where the “choice dress” moniker stems from.

A cincture has nothing at all to do with Holy Orders.

No one ever suggested there was anything wrong with the long time tradition of loaning the garb of cassocks and surplices to altar boys. However, because they are priestly garments (one liturgical, one not) many suggest that it would be an abomination to vest female altar servers in a cassock and surplice.
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We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
You are correct #209 in the GIRM and 124 in RS state that Concelebrants may choose not to wear the Chasuble and opt for a stole over the Alb. It would be proper for main celebrant and concelebrants to wear the Chasuble. Going through in my head the many Masses I have been to that were concelebrated I don’t recall ever seeing the concelebrants wear one.

In relation to the original question it was noted that even Priests who are not concelebrating and only acting as Deacon or MC do not wear the stole or chasuble. Hence only those who are actually celebrating or concelebrating the Mass wear the chasuble. Which would obviously eliminate this lay woman.
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Most daily televised Masses on EWTN are concelebrated, and the concelebrants wear chasables…

Most televised Masses from the National Shrine are concelebrated, and the concelebrants wear chasables…
 
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Brendan:
They role you describe it that of the Bishop’s Secretary. If the current Secretary is becoming a rector, what about the new Secretary?

Or perhaps a deacon?
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Brendan,

There are four of five of us deaocns who do serve as MCs from time to time. One deacon is actually the normal MC for one of our bishops. I’m not sure who MCs regularly for our newest bishop. I have served as MC for our current bishop, our retired bishop, the current bishop of Boise when he was in my diocese, and for the Abbot of the local Norbertine monastery when he was assisting with confirmations.

I believe the new secretary will, at times, serve as an MC, but he will have other duties as well. I haven’t been told what will happen and, as is usually the case, the bishop hasn’t seen fit to ask for my thoughts…

Deacon Ed
 
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ybeayf:
Do you take issue with any of the historical statements made by Pariah Pirana?
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If you have a problem, just ask. No need to whine about things.
 
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ybeayf:
Do you take issue with any of the historical statements made by Pariah Pirana?
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Of course not, it’s a difference in sensibility. I respect his opinion very much. We just disagree on what we think should be worn by Altar servers. That’s a pretty big misunderstanding of what I meant.
 
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