Does the Catholic Church permit women to wear chasubles?

[GloriaPatri4]

Deacon Ed:

Since this is my diocese I know who is being discussed. She wears an alb. It’s cream colored and very full, but it’s an alb. She does not wear a chasuble and Bishop Brown would never allow such a thing. She does serve as an MC (Master of Ceremonies) and, in that role, would process in in front of the bishop and after any concelebrating priests since she would be the one to remove his miter and take his crozier.

Dear Deacon Ed,

Do you know of other women in the U.S. or elsewhere who serve bishops in this capacity which would normally be reserved for men? It seems odd to me that a woman, whatever her position might be to first process with other priests down the center towards the altar(dressed in the same garb) and then if that weren’t enough to remove his Mitre and Crozier. I doubt this has ever been done by a woman for the bishop of Rome. Is this role not somehow a way to get Catholics comfortable and more open to the idea of women priests?
Deacon Ed:

Since the current secretary to the bishop who normally functions as his MC is becoming the rector of the new cathedral parish in July, I would expect to see more of her rather than less.

Deacon Ed

So should we also expect to see her sitting next to the bishop in the sanctuary as does the current secretary?

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

BillyT92679:

Of course not, it’s a difference in sensibility. I respect his opinion very much. We just disagree on what we think should be worn by Altar servers. That’s a pretty big misunderstanding of what I meant.

BillyT92679:

Of course not, it’s a difference in sensibility. I respect his opinion very much. We just disagree on what we think should be worn by Altar servers. That’s a pretty big misunderstanding of what I meant.

You’re wrong. My opinion of sensibility means nothing in areas like this.

Thankfully this is not a matter about differing opinions or sensibilities. It’s a matter of me simply stating what the Church instructs and you rejecting it. This sort of thing is not up for debate – they Church is quite clear in Her directions.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

GloriaPatri4:

Dear Deacon Ed,

Do you know of other women in the U.S. or elsewhere who serve bishops in this capacity which would normally be reserved for men? It seems odd to me that a woman, whatever her position might be to first process with other priests down the center towards the altar(dressed in the same garb) and then if that weren’t enough to remove his Mitre and Crozier. I doubt this has ever been done by a woman for the bishop of Rome. Is this role not somehow a way to get Catholics comfortable and more open to the idea of women priests**?**The only reason for this that I know of is that she is educationally qualifed and is the director of the office of liturgy. And, no, it has nothing to do with getting Catholics comfortable with anything. There will be an article in the diocesean paper on her role. Rather than speculate, why not wait for the offical answer?

So should we also expect to see her sitting next to the bishop in the sanctuary as does the current secretary?

Since the MC never sits in the sanctuary (and Fr. Michael never does so I’m not sure why you are asking this) I doubt that you will see her do that. I know that at the deacons’ ordination Mass she did not sit anywhere (neither did the other two MCs).

Deacon Ed

 

[ybeayf]

If you have a problem, just ask. No need to whine about things.

Er, the huh? Where was I whining? I was simply trying to see if BillyT92679 had any rebuttals to your factual statements.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

ybeayf:

Er, the huh? Where was I whining? I was simply trying to see if BillyT92679 had any rebuttals to your factual statements.

sorry.

 

[BillyT92679]

Pariah Pirana:

You’re wrong. My opinion of sensibility means nothing in areas like this.

Thankfully this is not a matter about differing opinions or sensibilities. It’s a matter of me simply stating what the Church instructs and you rejecting it. This sort of thing is not up for debate – they Church is quite clear in Her directions.

I fail to see the necessity of your response since I declared that I respected your opinion and there is still the fact that it is still “normative” for servers to wear cassocks and surplices.

I think this has been talked to death. Women should not attempt to dress like Priests or Deaconesses; that’s the original point, and that is something we all agree on. Dressing in a chasuble, or a stole or even a half-stole like Mary Rammerman did at Corpus Christi in Rochester is inappropriate.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

BillyT92679:

I fail to see the necessity of your response since I declared that I respected your opinion and there is still the fact that it is still “normative” for servers to wear cassocks and surplices.

I think this has been talked to death. Women should not attempt to dress like Priests or Deaconesses; that’s the original point, and that is something we all agree on. Dressing in a chasuble, or a stole or even a half-stole like Mary Rammerman did at Corpus Christi in Rochester is inappropriate.

"Your comments are lacking in other areas. From posting #33:

Again, the alb is the vestment proper to all baptised Catholic Christians. Our first alb is often our white baptismal gown.

Cardinal and bishops never wear surplices. They wear rochets (close-fitting surplices-like vestments) and mozettas (“shoulder capes”) along with cassocks as their choir dress.

Cassocks and surplices are not proper for choir members – except within some sects of Protestantism. That’s not where the “choice dress” moniker stems from.

A cincture has nothing at all to do with Holy Orders.

No one ever suggested there was anything wrong with the long time tradition of loaning the garb of cassocks and surplices to altar boys. However, because they are priestly garments (one liturgical, one not) many suggest that it would be an abomination to vest female altar servers in a cassock and surplice."

 

[ybeayf]

A cincture has nothing at all to do with Holy Orders.

Well, not anymore, but it was originally (and still is, in the Eastern rites) a priestly garment, along with the stole/epitrachelion and the chasuble/phelonion. In the West it merged with the monastic belt, but in the East retained its original form of a broad, flat piece of cloth.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

ybeayf:

A cincture has nothing at all to do with Holy Orders.

Well, not anymore, but it was originally (and still is, in the Eastern rites) a priestly garment, along with the stole/epitrachelion and the chasuble/phelonion. In the West it merged with the monastic belt, but in the East retained its original form of a broad, flat piece of cloth.

Actually Byzantine monks where a leather belt and it has nothing to do with Holy Orders as all professed monastics wear it whether or not they have recieved Orders.

Our priests wear a belt type garment when in vestments but a deacon does not.

 

[ybeayf]

Actually Byzantine monks where a leather belt and it has nothing to do with Holy Orders as all professed monastics wear it whether or not they have recieved Orders.

Our priests wear a belt type garment when in vestments but a deacon does not.

Right – I’m Orthodox, and so am quite familiar with the Byzantine rite. What I’m saying is that the East distinguishes between the cincture / zone and the monastic belt, and so maintains the former as a priestly garment, whereas in the West the two items merged so that both clerics and monastics wear a common style of belt; my point is that the Western cincture may not currently have anything to do with holy orders, but it originally did.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

BillyT92679:

Actually, cassocks and surplices are “choir vestments” that are proper to both literally the choir and also to clerics when they are not celebrating liturgical events. That is, when Cardinals, Bishops, and Monsignori are attending Mass or a devotional practice but are not concelebrating. Albs are specific to Liturgical celebrations and are worn by every ordained minister who celebrates… To me, there is absolutely nothing wrong with an Altar boy wearing a cassock or a surplice, it is our tradition in the Latin Rite. Wearing an alb, even if worn without cincture, gives off the impression that everyone is ordained in a way that leads to a misunderstanding of Holy Orders. A Priesthood of the people needs to be clearly delineated from the ordained Priesthood.

Cassock and surplice are considered “choir vestments” because for a long time service in the choir was considered a clerical function (thus the development of the use of *castrati *to sing parts not normally available to men; women could not be clerics and thus not sing in the choir). Albs, on the other hand, are proper to all baptized persons. The proper attire for altar servers has been an interesting issue over the last few years because some parishes, recognizing that the cassock is clerical dress, redressed their altar servers in albs in order to accommodate girl altar servers. In short: cassock - clerical, alb - all the faithful.

If I remember my Catholic education correctly, the surplice is also just a smaller version of an alb. Anyone know about that tidbit?

 

[Pug]

Andreas Hofer:

If I remember my Catholic education correctly, the surplice is also just a smaller version of an alb. Anyone know about that tidbit?

I don’t think it is an alb. A surplice is often specifically for those “minor orders” serving at the altar, so a layman can wear it (at least that was the case long ago). The suplice can be longish or shortish, so there is no way it can be an alb because an alb must be a long white garment. Also an alb has close sleeves (that are tight) and a surplice has wide sleeves. I think clergy and choir wore surplices as well. Like a cleric could have a surplice over a cassock. Then it looks like white lacy stuff to the hips over a long black dress.

But I could be wrong. I’m not an expert on the different items.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Andreas Hofer:

**Cassock and surplice are considered “choir vestments” because for a long time service in the choir was considered a clerical function (thus the development of the use of *castrati ***to sing parts not normally available to men; women could not be clerics and thus not sing in the choir). Albs, on the other hand, are proper to all baptized persons. The proper attire for altar servers has been an interesting issue over the last few years because some parishes, recognizing that the cassock is clerical dress, redressed their altar servers in albs in order to accommodate girl altar servers. In short: cassock - clerical, alb - all the faithful.

If I remember my Catholic education correctly, the surplice is also just a smaller version of an alb. Anyone know about that tidbit?

“Choir dress” has nothing to do with singing and it never did.

And so you know, the castarated chorus members (castrati) were not members of the clergy – they were members of the chorus…

A cassock is a non-litugical vestment that is properly worn by others who are not clerics – some religious brothers for instance.

 

[ames61]

Pariah Pirana:

A cincture has nothing at all to do with Holy Orders.

This surprised me, as I remember my priest telling me the prayers he says when vesting and that there was a prayer associated with the cincture.

Looking up in the Catholic Encyclopedia confirmed the prayer part. " The prayer now recited by the priest in putting on the girdle, “Gird me, O Lord, with the girdle of purity”, etc., strongly suggests that this vestment should be regarded as typical of priestly chastity. Like the other Mass vestments, the girdle requires to be blessed before use."
newadvent.org/cathen/03776a.htm

In any event, our altar servers wear them as well, I think mostly for logistical reasons, to avoid tripping on the albs. I’ve seen in other parishes albs worn by lectors and EM’s as well. As long as its consistent, it hopefully is designed to highlight the common priesthood, and alb of the baptized, and not an attempt to emulate the priest.

Personally, I prefer the difference between the ministerial priesthood and common priesthood to be more highlighted rather than blurred.

 

[Allen537]

Pariah Pirana:

However, because they are priestly garments (one liturgical, one not) many suggest that it would be an abomination to vest female altar servers in a cassock and surplice.

And It would be!

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Allen537:

And It would be!

When they televise big Masses from the National Shrine in DC, now and then there will be a female altar server. While the males are vested in cassocks/surplices, the females are always vested in albs.

Not only is it quite correct (albiet unwritten), it also looks quite tasteful…

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

ames61:

This surprised me, as I remember my priest telling me the prayers he says when vesting and that there was a prayer associated with the cincture.

Looking up in the Catholic Encyclopedia confirmed the prayer part. " The prayer now recited by the priest in putting on the girdle, “Gird me, O Lord, with the girdle of purity”, etc., strongly suggests that this vestment should be regarded as typical of priestly chastity. Like the other Mass vestments, the girdle requires to be blessed before use."
newadvent.org/cathen/03776a.htm

In any event, our altar servers wear them as well, I think mostly for logistical reasons, to avoid tripping on the albs. I’ve seen in other parishes albs worn by lectors and EM’s as well. As long as its consistent, it hopefully is designed to highlight the common priesthood, and alb of the baptized, and not an attempt to emulate the priest.

Personally, I prefer the difference between the ministerial priesthood and common priesthood to be more highlighted rather than blurred.

There are also prayer when putting on the amice and alb – both which are commonly worn by lay altar servers…

 

[QUICUMQUE_VULT]

I see in many Parishes the Female EM are starting to wear slacks,and dresses of the same liturgical color, as the Priests vestments. ie purple during Lent and Advent, Red on Good Friday. …Looks ridiculous

DOCE ME DOMINE VIAS TUAS!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

QUICUMQUE VULT:

I see in many Parishes the Female EM are starting to wear slacks,and dresses of the same liturgical color, as the Priests vestments. ie purple during Lent and Advent, Red on Good Friday. …Looks ridiculous

Female EM? Or do you mean EMHC?

Only priests and deacons are Eucharistic Ministers and by definition they are male.

 

[netmilsmom]

QUICUMQUE VULT:

I see in many Parishes the Female EM are starting to wear slacks,and dresses of the same liturgical color, as the Priests vestments. ie purple during Lent and Advent, Red on Good Friday. …Looks ridiculous

Oh that is too funny!
Like they all belong to the same club!