Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

  • Thread starter Thread starter rwillenborg
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
This is your opinion.

It also can easily mean that it did not exist prior to this event. Some posters are also short on logic. 😉
I see that you prefer making a non-informative response rather than cite you sources and let everyone know what you think are such trustworthy Bible scholars.
Seas. Lakes. Oceans.

Genesis 1:10
And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
This merely begs the question. Since the issue is interpreting Biblical text correctly according to the genus litterarium, which is a clue to the sacred writer’s intent and meaning merely to toss up a few words from the Bible is question begging, at best.
There is no cultural or scientific evidence to support the interpretation that they did exist before the flood either.
Not that you are familiar with any ancient cultures, who attached their own meanings to the rainbow, but first, when do you think the Noah Deluge occurred. If there is scientific evidence for a global flood, as fundamentalist assert, then we should know when it occurred. How do you answer that?

Based on your answer, we will return to the subject of rainbows.
I think the rainbow is important. The rainbow is the sign of the covenant between God and Noah. Circumcision was the sign of the covenant between God and Abraham.
I agree with that, too!
Opinions are just opinions, even yours. 😉
Another one of you non-informative responses.
Jesus stated that the flood happened. I believe Him. His Word is much more reliable than yours.
This begs the question again, and is non-informative.

Jesus can cite the Noah story for the truth of the message that it contains. The truth of that message is in no way dependent on an historical global flood. Hence, you have explained nothing, proved nothing.
 
first you write, that’s fine, regarding, i presume, my offer of agreeing to disagree.

Then, you continue with what looks like a rant.

It’s not that i cannot, but that i will not argue with you. Life is too short to waste it on rants.
lol :d
 
No, it didn’t. 😃

But, this still does not mean that the flood/deluge never happened. 🙂 Like I said, we each have free will to believe what we desire, regardless whether what we each believe is true or not.
That we have free will is no defense. Because we have free will we have moral obligation to be educated. In light of the advances in biblical scholarship, various historical sciences, and various physical sciences, to prefer a superficial reading of the Noah story, one which claims an historical global deluge does not pass for being educated.
Some people believe that all Scripture is fable and that it was specifically written to deceive the gullible.

After all, they reason, surely it is only the gullible who believe that the Son of God (for the sake of argument, if there is One) could and would ever become a man and die on a cross in order to reconcile us to God. And, not only that, these gullible people actually believe that He chose to die in order to reconcile us, because thousands of years earlier, just one man committed one sin which then alienated all mankind from this God and the gates of heaven were closed because of this one sin by this one man.

And, also they say, that no one except the extremely gullible believes that it is possible for a person to actually eat the flesh and blood of this God.
All of this has no relevance to the current issue.
They even admit that a worldwide flood, even if it occurred strictly because of natural causes such as a large direct comet hit which shifted the axis of the earth for a time, that this sounds a whole lot more plausible than these “strange” beliefs about a God. 😉
No one has ever produced any credible evidence for a global deluge.

A superficial reading of the Noah story prompts people to go searching for an Ark stranded on a mountain, and sees seashells on a mountain or plain as evidence for a global flood. So much nonsense.

St. Thomas Aquinas warned those in his own day about superficial reading of Scripture. Regarding Genesis 1, Aquinas said a direct creation in six days is favored by a superficial reading of Scripture.
 
Where is the physical evidence, published in a respectable scientific publication, that concludes there ever was a global deluge? :rolleyes:
 
Where is the physical evidence, published in a respectable scientific publication, that concludes there ever was a global deluge? :rolleyes:
Leave th poor guy alone. Both positions are acceptable for Catholics. I tend to have a bit more respect for he that believes without needing physical evidence. Remember St. Thomas after the Resurrection…
 
The Gospels are accounts of the life of Jesus (God incarnate) written by two of His apostles, a follower of St. Peter (another apostle), and a follower of St. Paul.

It is illogical to maintain that the Bible is inerrant (which the Church teaches) and that words expressly attributed to Jesus are not to be taken as “Gospel truth”.

In other words, if a Gospel quotes Jesus as saying “ABC”, then the Church maintains that He did, in fact, say “ABC”.

Therefore, when Jesus references the “days of Noah” in His description of the end times, He is either:
  1. Not quoted accurately. Let’s face it, everyone (self-proclaimed scholars) knows that Noah didn’t really exist and the Gospels can’t be considered reliable.
  2. Referencing an inspired fairy tale. The numbskulls who populated the Middle East in Jesus’ day wouldn’t know any better. At least we do. For us, Jesus would have to use something more like “as in the days of Frodo.” That would be an interesting literary reference, but could only be taken as fictional. Jesus doesn’t sound like He’s doing this. I don’t think He was trying to confuse His followers.
  3. Referencing a real, historical event. If anyone would know the conditions at the time of Noah, He would.
That…and the fact that an entire COVENANT between GOD and His creatures is based on NOAH, something which would have little significance if NOAH didn’t exist. It’d be like talking about the great covenant between God and Frodo; God and Cinderella; God and Optimus Prime. Anyone speaking of such “covenants” seriously should be quickly dismissed.
You assume that if Jesus referenced the Noah story, then everything about the story must be historical. That position would be difficult to justify as there are many counter-examples in the Bible.

Jesus can tell parables and the parables convey a theological truth. It is not necessary for the details of parable to be historical in order for it to be true. Likewise, the Noah story is absolutely true without everything about it being historical. This is not to imply that the Deluge story lies in the category of parable.
 
Leave th poor guy alone. Both positions are acceptable for Catholics. I tend to have a bit more respect for he that believes without needing physical evidence. Remember St. Thomas after the Resurrection…
Good grief! :eek:

Asking for evidence is too much to ask in a discussion? Where are you coming from?

You said both positions are acceptable for Catholics. What is acceptable about Catholics acting like partially reconstructed Protestant fundamentalists who deny what science knows to be the case. Superficial readings of Scripture that assert things contrary to what science knows to be the case throws discredit on Scripture in the eyes of unbelievers, and it discredits those Catholics who make such outlandish claims.

St. Augustine issued a long warning about this kind of thing. So did Cardinal Bellarmine.

If Catholics want to assert there is evidence for a world wide flood, then I challenge them to take responsibility for what they say and reference that evidence in a respectable peer-reviewed scientific publication.

Absit invidia, but you are but proffering the twinc(y) defense.
 
Good grief! :eek:

Asking for evidence is too much to ask in a discussion? Where are you coming from?

You said both positions are acceptable for Catholics. What is acceptable about Catholics acting like partially reconstructed Protestant fundamentalists who deny what science knows to be the case. Superficial readings of Scripture that assert things contrary to what science knows to be the case throws discredit on Scripture in the eyes of unbelievers, and it discredits those Catholics who make such outlandish claims.

St. Augustine issued a long warning about this kind of thing. So did Cardinal Bellarmine.

If Catholics want to assert there is evidence for a world wide flood, then I challenge them to take responsibility for what they say and reference that evidence in a respectable peer-reviewed scientific publication.

Absit invidia, but you are but proffering the twinc(y) defense.
what sort of evidence would you settle for - so lets see,lets say if there really was a world wide[global]flood what would the evidence be “millions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth”- Guess what the evidence reveals “millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rock layers laid down by water all over the earth” - twinc
 
Like I said, we each have free will to believe what we desire, regardless whether what we each believe is true or not.
Exactly. And in this case (the historical reality of the flood, ark, etc.) the same is true while remaining faithful Catholics, according to the Church. We can believe it actually happened or not.
 
You assume that if Jesus referenced the Noah story, then everything about the story must be historical. That position would be difficult to justify as there are many counter-examples in the Bible.

Jesus can tell parables and the parables convey a theological truth. It is not necessary for the details of parable to be historical in order for it to be true. Likewise, the Noah story is absolutely true without everything about it being historical. This is not to imply that the Deluge story lies in the category of parable.
The parables are always introduced as such.
 
Exactly. And in this case (the historical reality of the flood, ark, etc.) the same is true while remaining faithful Catholics, according to the Church. We can believe it actually happened or not.
but belief does not change the actual truth of the matter.
 
Good grief! :eek:

Asking for evidence is too much to ask in a discussion? Where are you coming from?

You said both positions are acceptable for Catholics. What is acceptable about Catholics acting like partially reconstructed Protestant fundamentalists who deny what science knows to be the case. Superficial readings of Scripture that assert things contrary to what science knows to be the case throws discredit on Scripture in the eyes of unbelievers, and it discredits those Catholics who make such outlandish claims.

St. Augustine issued a long warning about this kind of thing. So did Cardinal Bellarmine.

If Catholics want to assert there is evidence for a world wide flood, then I challenge them to take responsibility for what they say and reference that evidence in a respectable peer-reviewed scientific publication.

Absit invidia, but you are but proffering the twinc(y) defense.
I could also say that you are taking the attitude of an atheistic humanist, placing no value on faith whatsoever. Enough with the ad hominem attacks.
 
what sort of evidence would you settle for - so lets see,lets say if there really was a world wide[global]flood what would the evidence be “millions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth”- Guess what the evidence reveals “millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rock layers laid down by water all over the earth” - twinc
religioustolerance.org/oldearth2.htm
 
The parables are always introduced as such.
Does that mean in the very few cases where a literary genre is explicitly introduced are the only times you will properly recognize the genus litterarium being used?
 
Does that mean in the very few cases where a literary genre is explicitly introduced are the only times you will properly recognize the genus litterarium being used?
Catholics do not. We understand Scripture literally, that is what the author intended to convey, The constant understanding and teaching of the Church has been that the flood occurred. It was a real event.
 
Catholics do not. We understand Scripture literally, that is what the author intended to convey, The constant understanding and teaching of the Church has been that the flood occurred. It was a real event.
So we are to read parables, metaphors, and other figurative uses of language as “literal” and not how the sacred writer intended them.

You are so far out of the loop on Catholic understanding of the Bible, one hardly knows what to say.:eek: You have grossly misrepresented what the Church teaches. Methinks you know nothing about the Bible and should not be pontificating on it.

For anyone interested in thinking and learning about how to read the Bible, I will make a few comments:

First, the literal sense is only the basis for the other senses of Scripture. St.Thomas Aquinas made this clear in the first part of the Summa Theologica, under .Sacra Doctrina Hence, St. Thomas and his school are sure to disagree with buffalo.

To stop at the literal sense often reflects a superficial understanding of Scripture, as St. Thomas said in regard to the the six days of creation: a direct creation in six days is favored by a superficial reading of Scripture.

Second, St. Augustine’s commentary on Genesis chapter 1 makes is clear that the literal sense alone cannot give a reasonable interpretation of every passage. So, St. Augustine will also disagree with buffalo. Especially so in his book On Christian Doctrine, specifically under the Rules of Tychonius for interpreting Scripture.

Third, buffalo does not a show reasonable understanding of what the “literal sense” means. In the past, when biblical exegetes thought they discovered the meaning of a passage, they had not available to them the resources which would enable the recognition of its genus literrarium, its category and character, which often is in Genesis that of historical aetiology expressed in a popular and poetic form.

If an account in genesis is historical aetiology or theological polemic, or some other form, a “literal” only reading in the sense that buffalo understand “literal”, is not truly literal at all, and it is not a serious reading. It is just wrong.

To take the Deluge story as historical in every aspect is not a literal reading at all. It is a false and confusing reading. This is the key point here: A statement in Scripture, or any literature, is all the more literally understood, all the more fully and precisely interpreted, the more clearly and consciously the literary character of the statement in question is recognized and fully appreciated as to how it functions as a device to convey the author’s message.

We can do this better now in regard to the Deluge account than could Biblical commentators of the past. Hence, older commentators who read the Deluge account as completely historical were not reading it more literally. It is the modern Catholic Bible scholars in communion with the mind of the Church, taking advantage of everything that contributes to understanding the Bible, who are reading the Deluge account “more literally”.

Buffalo goes for the quick and easy answer in a way that skews and confuses the whole subject of just what a literal reading means. Others in this mindset quote recklessly from Church documents, presuming they adequately understand what is being said.

Buffalo is far from speaking correctly for Catholics or for the Church, especially those knowledgeable in Scripture. How could he, when he does not even know what is properly and adequately meant by the “literal sense” of Scripture?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top