Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

[grannymh]

A flood makes a far more interesting tale. Also it counters the free-will argument. If God can see the future, and saw that he needed to “flood the world”. Why not just start again after Eve and Adam ate the apple. Why let them procreate after that. God works in mysterious ways huh.

God sure does work in mysterious ways.

He created the souls of Adam and Eve with the powers of intellect and (free) will. As a descendent of Adam, Noah inherited his material body from Adam and Eve. And God gave him a spiritual soul with the same powers given to Adam and Eve. Thus our human nature is a marvelous unification of soul and body, rational and corporeal, spirit and matter.

Noah received his material body by propagation starting with Adam and Eve and his soul from God. The same process continues. As He did in the beginning, God invites each person to share in His friendship. It is like God is starting at square one with each of us. Even though God sees the future because He is outside of time, He does not take away our soul’s ability to know Him and love Him. He continues to let us use our freedom even when we choose to abuse it.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.

 

[MonFrere]

Ed, I understand why you think I may be referring to individual interpretation. However, I was referring to individuals. Sometimes we have to recognize the reality that people do have different views about anything and everything.

Granny,

I was taking your comment as one of reading the bible - Lectio Divina. Where we read a passage and meditate upon it’s message where God’s Word can speak to us. I know you don’t do this to come up with your own interpretation, but to commune with God through His Word. Lectio Divina is ENCOURAGED, especially by Pope Benedict.

MonFrere

 

[StAnastasia]

Perhaps one should think about what abortion entails before writing. Perhaps one should think – period.

Indeed – abortion entails the ending of a pregnancy and the death of a fetus. God’s flood caused a lot of that.

 

[StAnastasia]

You may have said this, but you haven’t argued this point in a way that is convincing to me in the least. You sound frustrated that your original statement on the matter was not merely accepted as gospel without needing to argue your case (do you have some authority that we all should recognize?), but you’ll need to explain how certain toddlers and unborn babies could be corrupted by sins that they did not commit and how animals and plants could possibly become corrupt. And if the animals and plants were in fact corrupt, how did the animals and plants that Noah took aboard the boat avoid being corrupted? And if a cleansing was necessary, why drown babies and animals to do it? Why not just instantly and painlessly end their lives and remove their beings from the earth rather than flood the earth leaving their rotting carcasses behind?

Leela, you raise interesting problems for a literalist reading of the flood story, problems not easily reconcilable with the idea of a loving God. It would have been much easier for God to accomplish all of this by fiat, thereby avoiding the suffering of innocents. But it would also have been much easier magically to transport the marsupials to Mesopotamia than to require Moses to travel there to pick them up, which he would have to have done. These are deep questions!

StAnastasia

 

[Leela]

What constitutes innocent?

I would that an unborn baby is pretty much the paradigm for innocence. Do you really not understand what this term means?

 

[Leela]

When you go to the surgeon to remove a cancerous tumor do you ask him to remove just a part of it?

I would prefer that the doctor remove the entire tumor. What is your point? Are you equating infants, babies, and toddler with a cancerous tumor?

 

[juliamajor]

If you are a literalist you paint yourself into a corner eventually.Literalism is a dead end-people think they are being “loyal” or “faithful” when the cling to such concepts.When all they are truly doing is putting limits on the power of God’s word to move and effect people’s lives…

 

[grannymh]

If you are a literalist you paint yourself into a corner eventually.Literalism is a dead end-people think they are being “loyal” or “faithful” when the cling to such concepts.When all they are truly doing is putting limits on the power of God’s word to move and effect people’s lives…

The literal truth is that God is the Creator and humans are the created. While I do respect the various worldviews of other posters, I look to the Catholic Church as the teacher of truth about God as well as about sin.

What the Catholic Church recognizes in the story of Noah is that wickedness is real and the consequences are just as real. The Catholic Church recognizes that God remains a loving God even when humans choose to leave His friendship.

When focusing on suffering from the human point of view, one must think about the nature of God as Spirit. Some people think of God in human terms and thus they fail to realize that God is with the suffering.

There is no greater comfort in the midst of suffering than to have God’s presence. There is peace in the midst because one knows that the love and peace of God’s presence will continue beyond death.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.

 

[juliamajor]

The literal truth is that God is the Creator and humans are the created. While I do respect the various worldviews of other posters, I look to the Catholic Church as the teacher of truth about God as well as about sin.

What the Catholic Church recognizes in the story of Noah is that wickedness is real and the consequences are just as real. The Catholic Church recognizes that God remains a loving God even when humans choose to leave His friendship. He extends the rainbow as a sign that the bridge to His eternal peace needs to be freely chosen. The freedom to cross or not to cross over the bridge remains as part of human nature.

When focusing on suffering from the human point of view, one must think about the nature of God as Spirit. Some people think of God in human terms and thus they fail to realize that God is with the suffering. There is no greater comfort in the midst of suffering than to have God presence. There is peace in the midst because one knows that the love and peace of God’s presence will continue beyong death.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.

Well that’s my point-getting caught up on questions like

“how many animals could fit on the Ark” or “how high was the flood water” just muddies the waters and gives import to things which are rather incidental
instead of the main themes -God’s Love, God’s care, God’s Justice.By plumbing the shallow depths of literalism the deeper waters get forgotten.Genesis just becomes a bunch of odd folkloric tales for the kiddies-which it is not.

 

[grannymh]

Well that’s my point-getting caught up on questions like

“how many animals could fit on the Ark” or “how high was the flood water” just muddies the waters and gives import to things which are rather incidental
instead of the main themes -God’s Love, God’s care, God’s Justice.By plumbing the shallow depths of literalism the deeper waters get forgotten.Genesis just becomes a bunch of odd folkloric tales for the kiddies-which it is not.

And some people like to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Part of the problem of literal animals, etc., is that some people want to put literal and symbolic into the category of the “mutually exclusive or”. Either all of the Bible or none of the Bible is literal. This is kind of a cover-up of the real issue which points to the reality in the Bible. If Noah is a real person and there was real wickedness, then it is a good bet that Adam and Eve are real people and original sin is also real.

Blessings,
granny

God loves us from the moment of conception. Psalm 139

 

[twb1621]

?

…explain how certain toddlers and unborn babies could be corrupted by sins that they did not commit and how animals and plants could possibly become corrupt. And if the animals and plants were in fact corrupt, how did the animals and plants that Noah took aboard the boat avoid being corrupted? And if a cleansing was necessary, why drown babies and animals to do it? Why not just instantly and painlessly end their lives and remove their beings from the earth rather than flood the earth leaving their rotting carcasses behind?

Animals and plants where created and awarded to the custody and care of man for the pleasure and necessity of man. Vegetation was the intended food for man, not meats of the animals. It stands to reason that if God was going to flood the world to destroy the evil that became of man whom He created in His image and likeness with love, the last thing that would interfere with His decision would be the plant and animal life. See below.

Why drown babies and animals to do it? How did the animals and plants that Noah took aboard the boat avoid being corrupted?

What many including you do not consider is; this mortal life is a pilgrimage, temporary by nature and not intended to be permanent. This life was given as a second chance for man. Simply put, the purpose is to give man this human life with the free will to choose to seek and learn to know God and as a result hopefully love God. Without the ability to experience such choices or choose God freely over human pleasures, we would have no choice but to worship Him leaving no true free will or true honest love. The choice is:

1. to seek, learn to know Him and hopefully recognize His love and choose to give Him our love or 2. choose to enjoy this mortal life and our own human pleasures regardless of how corrupt they may be over eternality with God.

No one who wishes to have a relationship with another person would be satisfied or pleased with that relationship if they felt the other person was only involved with them because they were forced into it, that is not love. The point is, our eternal heavenly life is the final goal in the eyes of God and should be in our hearts. The death of infants or animals although sad to us as mortals is not a matter of the end of “life” to God but merely to us who cannot conceive an eternity without pain or suffering or sadness or aging etc. but complete joy and happiness.

God made it clear those who teach evil or distort God’s word in teaching others subsequently leading others to sin will be held accountable for the sins they lead others into. God knows the hearts of man and judges accordingly including the innocent. If God determined the children where heading for or to be lead into corruption, cleansing of humanity is not as tragic as a human would see it. In this case it could be considered that God saved the children from that corruption and judged them accordingly. God is completely aware of the eternal life and pleasures of Heaven for the innocent while preserving life and the human race through those God recognized as worthy to do His will in the regeneration of His creation.

He also did not inflict death upon man as a punishment for partaking of the forbidden tree, He warned of that as a result. This is written in Genesis. If they chose to eat of the fruit of knowledge, they would receive the knowledge of good and evil but also suffer the eventual experience of death from this fruit, yet they did anyway choosing to ignore the warning for the sake of pride.

 

[buffalo]

I would prefer that the doctor remove the entire tumor. What is your point? Are you equating infants, babies, and toddler with a cancerous tumor?

Why? So all the disease is removed.

Yes. That seems to be the case from God’s perspective, not ours. Since we are creatures this is difficult to comprehend. From the creator’s point of view not so difficult. Bodily death is less of a concern to God than our immortal soul.

 

[buffalo]

Well that’s my point-getting caught up on questions like

“how many animals could fit on the Ark” or “how high was the flood water” just muddies the waters and gives import to things which are rather incidental
instead of the main themes -God’s Love, God’s care, God’s Justice.By plumbing the shallow depths of literalism the deeper waters get forgotten.Genesis just becomes a bunch of odd folkloric tales for the kiddies-which it is not.

OK - details aside then you will concede there was a flood event?

 

[MonFrere]

. If Noah is a real person and there was real wickedness, then it is a good bet that Adam and Eve are real people and original sin is also real.

What makes me believe that Noah was a literal historic person is because he is mentioned in Hebrews 11: where all the great people of faith are listed. It also mentions that they died in faith not having yet received the promises of God. If Noah were a legendary person that never existed there are no promises awaiting a fictitious person! Because of this I lean toward the idea of a local (non-global) flood.

The fact that Job or Jonah are not listed here is a curiosity and would at least raise the possibility that these stories may not be based on historic people. (not proof, but does raise the possibility)

MonFrere

 

[StAnastasia]

I would that an unborn baby is pretty much the paradigm for innocence. Do you really not understand what this term means?

Right. The babies aborted by the sending of “Noah’s Flood” were deprived of their right to life, and of any enjoyment of that life. It seems that either God cannot be considered pro-life, or we need not interpret the flood story literally.

StAnastasia

 

[StAnastasia]

OK - details aside then you will concede there was a flood event?

Buffalo, of course there was a flood event – there have been millions of floods in human history. There may have been a huge one in around the Black Sea in prehistory.

 

[buffalo]

Right. The babies aborted by the sending of “Noah’s Flood” were deprived of their right to life, and of any enjoyment of that life. It seems that either God cannot be considered pro-life, or we need not interpret the flood story literally.

StAnastasia

God is pro-eternal life. Your argument is a false dichotomy.

 

[buffalo]

Buffalo, of course there was a flood event – there have been millions of floods in human history. There may have been a huge one in around the Black Sea in prehistory.

Right, and we know of a huge on as Robert Ballard discovered. I believe your are now tending towards a cataclysmic understanding of history. That is a good step.

 

[grannymh]

Right. The babies aborted by the sending of “Noah’s Flood” were deprived of their right to life, and of any enjoyment of that life. It seems that either God cannot be considered pro-life, or we need not interpret the flood story literally.

StAnastasia

Catholic teaching is that humans, at whatever stage of development, have been created for eternal life with their Creator.

Is God the created human you would like to see as pro-life on this earth? Is there the intention to avoid both the consequences of sin and the redemption/salvation of humans. Catholic teaching includes the real purpose of human life – who we are and where we are headed. Catholic teaching does not back down from the reality of suffering. Instead, Catholic teaching portrays God as Spirit Who comforts those who are suffering or who are in the process of death. If God is to be considered pro-life, it is vital to know which life, earthly or eternal, is to be preferred.

Blessings,
granny

Eternal life is the goal of human life.

 

[edwest2]

If you are a literalist you paint yourself into a corner eventually.Literalism is a dead end-people think they are being “loyal” or “faithful” when the cling to such concepts.When all they are truly doing is putting limits on the power of God’s word to move and effect people’s lives…

The Bible is the Word of God. It shows how God works. He cleansed the lepers, raised the dead and gave sight to the blind instantly.

Peace,
Ed