Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

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I wonder if Christ believed that the flood was literally or historically true?

Christ’s teaching from Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
diggerdomer said:
The covenant was/is between God and Noah. That’s an important/essential thing to take away from the witness in Scripture. Whether or not there was an actual flood and ark as literally described is, as I’ve said, left open. Similarly, we can disagree on the number of animals taken on board…there are different accounts in the narrative, we’re not obliged to take either one numerically literally.
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So, the rainbow may be superfluous even though it appears after a rain shower? And, Peter did not have a clue when he preached about the flood?

2 Peter 2:4-6
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

1 Peter 3:19-21
by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[a] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I’ll stick with Peter. I will be in good company. 🙂

Since there are only about 129 families of mammals, I think that they were all represented on the ark. For instance, the dogs we have today originally came from the wolf family so the 2 representatives of this family on the ark were 2 wolves.
 
diggerdomer said:
Moses’ death is recounted in the opening verses of Deuteronomy 34. There are more verses in that chapter following his death. Also, of course, the whole book of Genesis recounts events before Moses was born so how or if he wrote that book (along with the narration of his own birth in the beginning of Exodus) may also be something to consider.
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It is apparent in Deuteronomy that Moses did not write Deuteronomy. Thank you for pointing this out. Always something new to learn! Past scholars’ opinions are taught as fact and most everyone believes these opinions until they are finally disproven. I never thought about it at all, I just heard that Moses wrote the Pentateuch many, many years ago and had no reason to not believe it until now. :eek:

Deuteronomy 34:5-6
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.

Moses certainly did not write this Scripture. 😃

The following is not from a Catholic site, but it is interesting in that it explains the authorship of the Pentateuch as a mixture from 4 different writers and 1 redactor and according to them, all mainline and liberal theologians ascribe to this belief now and that “In 1943, Pope Pius XII issued an encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu in which he urged academics to study the sources of Biblical texts.” :

religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm
 
John7 said:
I wonder if Christ believed that the flood was literally or historically true?

Christ’s teaching from Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
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Good Scripture proof. 👍
 
SHW said:
It is apparent in Deuteronomy that Moses did not write Deuteronomy. Thank you for pointing this out. Always something new to learn! Past scholars’ opinions are taught as fact and most everyone believes these opinions until they are finally disproven. I never thought about it at all, I just heard that Moses wrote the Pentateuch many, many years ago and had no reason to not believe it until now. :eek:

Deuteronomy 34:5-6
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.

Moses certainly did not write this Scripture. 😃

The following is not from a Catholic site, but it is interesting in that it explains the authorship of the Pentateuch as a mixture from 4 different writers and 1 redactor and according to them, all mainline and liberal theologians ascribe to this belief now and that “In 1943, Pope Pius XII issued an encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu in which he urged academics to study the sources of Biblical texts.” :

religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm
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The tradition of Moses authoring the Pentateuch was a long-standing tradition. It only came under question in the 1600-1700s. Some would claim, for instance, that Joshua finished the work.

The theory you refer to about four main writers (sources) for the Pentateuch is a well-known one, and, though not without some criticism, acceptable to Catholic theology.
 
SHW said:
So, the rainbow may be superfluous even though it appears after a rain shower? And, Peter did not have a clue when he preached about the flood?

2 Peter 2:4-6
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

1 Peter 3:19-21
by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[a] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I’ll stick with Peter. I will be in good company. 🙂

Since there are only about 129 families of mammals, I think that they were all represented on the ark. For instance, the dogs we have today originally came from the wolf family so the 2 representatives of this family on the ark were 2 wolves.
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Nothing I said contradicts Peter’s preaching in Acts. I’m sticking with Peter too.

Were there only two wolves? I thought wolves were “clean” animals and so there would have been 7 pairs of them (see Genesis 7:2).
 
SHW said:
What do you think the covenant was/is in relation to if not the flood since the CCC states that there definitely is a covenant between God and Noah?

I believe the flood “story” since the Bible explains exactly why He made His covenant with Noah and the Church upholds this teaching about this covenant in her catechism. This was also, I believe (correct me if I’m mistaken), the first Biblical record of covenant relationship between God and man.
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Although the word “covenant” is not used, there is a covenant relationship between God and Adam. Adam has roles of prophet, priest, and king. There is also fellowship with GOd, which is followed by a fall, and is renewed. When I have more time I will dig out my notes and give a fuller explanation
 
SHW said:
It is apparent in Deuteronomy that Moses did not write Deuteronomy. Thank you for pointing this out. Always something new to learn! Past scholars’ opinions are taught as fact and most everyone believes these opinions until they are finally disproven. I never thought about it at all, I just heard that Moses wrote the Pentateuch many, many years ago and had no reason to not believe it until now. :eek:

Deuteronomy 34:5-6
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.

Moses certainly did not write this Scripture. 😃

The following is not from a Catholic site, but it is interesting in that it explains the authorship of the Pentateuch as a mixture from 4 different writers and 1 redactor and according to them, all mainline and liberal theologians ascribe to this belief now and that “In 1943, Pope Pius XII issued an encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu in which he urged academics to study the sources of Biblical texts.” :

religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm
Click to expand...
The Pentateuch had one writer–Moses. Being a prophet, could Moses not have written about his own death? God does, upon occasion reveal things to the Sacred Authors that had not yet come to pass. The textual criticism you mention, was put forth by an anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic bigot, who used his own biases in the dating of the texts. If you investigate more closely, the whole “JEPD” hypothesis is a just a big mess contrived to match a preconceived worldview.
 
rwillenborg said:
If so, how could that be? And please, not the ‘All things are possible through God’. If I’m to explain catholic theology to non-catholics, I’d better come better equipped than that. 🙂
And if not, on what basis is it considered allegorical and not true? Why would Noah’s story be false, and our original parents Adam and Eve be true?
How do you reconcile the similarities between the story of Noah and other ancient flood stories?
Any insight would be most helpful. Thanks!
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Well, I do not know how the catholic church is going to answer, but I think that they should be careful dabbling with evolution. There is a lot of evidence being gathered that the dating systems that are used are false.

For instance, the fossil layers were caused by flowing mud. I saw a demonstration of how sediments stratify when they pour out.

It is quite amazing. The oldest fossil layer contains only a small variety of fully formed fossils, and this is what would be expected if all the layers formed at the same time by stratification.

The 2 hour presentation about this an other findings was aired on EWTN. The scientist who did the research is Dr. Robert Gentry.

Please no insults to Doctor Gentry. His credentials are impecable.
One of the most important things that he found is that burried trees turn into coal quickly, it does not take millions of years…
 
geometer said:
Well, I do not know how the catholic church is going to answer, but I think that they should be careful dabbling with evolution. There is a lot of evidence being gathered that the dating systems that are used are false.

For instance, the fossil layers were caused by flowing mud. I saw a demonstration of how sediments stratify when they pour out.

It is quite amazing. The oldest fossil layer contains only a small variety of fully formed fossils, and this is what would be expected if all the layers formed at the same time by stratification.

The 2 hour presentation about this an other findings was aired on EWTN. The scientist who did the research is Dr. Robert Gentry.

Please no insults to Doctor Gentry. His credentials are impecable.
One of the most important things that he found is that burried trees turn into coal quickly, it does not take millions of years…
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I did not know EWTN had done anything with this. Thanks geometer!
 
diggerdomer said:
The tradition of Moses authoring the Pentateuch was a long-standing tradition. It only came under question in the 1600-1700s. Some would claim, for instance, that Joshua finished the work.

The theory you refer to about four main writers (sources) for the Pentateuch is a well-known one, and, though not without some criticism, acceptable to Catholic theology.
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I can see why many people believe that Joshua finished the work. 🙂 Good discussion. 👍
 
CWBetts said:
Although the word “covenant” is not used, there is a covenant relationship between God and Adam. Adam has roles of prophet, priest, and king. There is also fellowship with GOd, which is followed by a fall, and is renewed. When I have more time I will dig out my notes and give a fuller explanation
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I see what you mean. I am looking forward to learning more! 🙂
 
CWBetts said:
The Pentateuch had one writer–Moses. Being a prophet, could Moses not have written about his own death? God does, upon occasion reveal things to the Sacred Authors that had not yet come to pass. The textual criticism you mention, was put forth by an anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic bigot, who used his own biases in the dating of the texts. If you investigate more closely, the whole “JEPD” hypothesis is a just a big mess contrived to match a preconceived worldview.
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Moses could have indeed written about his own death if God chose to reveal this to him. Do you have any sources for the opinions of Catholic scholars on this subject?
 
GEOMETER - Thanks for posting that! When I have some time, I’ll look at it.

CRAZZETO and others who believe the flood story to be an actual event - how do you answer critics of the historicity of the event? There wasn’t enough room on the boat, there is such great genetic variation in species on the earth today to show that a particular species did not descend from ONE set of parents, and, well, you probably know more criticisms than I do. And, you had mentioned in an earlier post that the Catholic Church said Catholics had to hold the flood story to be actually true. Could you point me to where you found that? I searched the CCC and couldn’t find anything on it. Thanks!

PETER DAWSON and other who believe the flood story was NOT an actual event - I think CRAZZETO brings up some good points…I thought the flood was sort of a proto-Gospel…it pointed the way toward baptism. And if it didn’t really happen, well, then what?

By the way, folks, I don’t have a horse in this race. Trusting in Jesus Christ as my Lord and SAvior doesn’t rest on this story either way. I don’t really have an opinion on it and that’s just fine by me. HOWEVER, if I am to convince my friends and neighbors that Christians aren’t all loons, I’m going to have to come up with a reasoned response as to why the Church says you can either believe or not believe in this story.

Honestly, thanks everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut so far. That’s what these boards are for, right? To hash out these differences. I’m learning alot. Keep it coming!
 
SHW said:
Moses could have indeed written about his own death if God chose to reveal this to him. Do you have any sources for the opinions of Catholic scholars on this subject?
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I don’t need the opinions of Catholic scholars when discussing something unrevealed
 
The Bible declares it. Jesus refers to Noe. The Bible tells us, and as we say at Mass, referring to God, “He has spoken through the prophets.” Whatever knowledge God gave to the prophets and what He told them to say were His words, not their own. The Book of Revelation is God describing things to come.

The desire to accept one event in the Bible as actual while declaring another symbolic or metaphorical is up to the Magisterium not our own personal interpretation. Did Jesus literally walk on water? Of course. He spoke in parables but revealed their meaning to His disciples, and to us.

The CIA has an image they’ve labeled Ararat Anomoly. The Turkish government is very sensitive about allowing people to go up there. Miracles have continued from Biblical times and are not explainable by natural means. In the meantime, I would stick with the Bible.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
The Bible declares it.
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The Bible also declares that God created everything in 7 days. Are you saying that it’s essential to Christian (or Jewish) faith that we believe that in a literalistic sense, i.e. the whole physical history of the universe was created in seven 24 hour periods? Dinosaurs, fossils, humans, archaeology, geology, etc? Thanks for any clarification.
 
edwest2 said:
The CIA has an image they’ve labeled Ararat Anomoly. The Turkish government is very sensitive about allowing people to go up there. Miracles have continued from Biblical times and are not explainable by natural means. In the meantime, I would stick with the Bible.
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The Turks not granting visas to go up Ararat would not prevent any huge “anomaly” from coming to light. All that needs to be done is for someone to pay for a photo pass by one of those old Soviet spy satellites now in commercial service. Then publish the pix.

This has been available for some years, yet, we have nothing but second- and thirdhand hearsay about boatlike “anomalies” on Ararat. I, for one, don’t find that very persuasive. And it isn’t a matter of faith for me anyhow.

ICXC NIKA!
 
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