A
adriancombe
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Is there some magisterial source for your theory about biblical fiction, or is this simply the heresy du jour?
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Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?
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D
diggerdomer
Guest
What heresy do you mean?Is there some magisterial source for your theory about biblical fiction, or is this simply the heresy du jour?
A
adriancombe
Guest
There was a reference to Judith and Tobit being fiction.What heresy do you mean?
D
diggerdomer
Guest
It’s not heretical to believe that they were fictional stories, at least to the Catholic Church. Catholics are free to believe it is an accurate historical account, or that it was a fictional tale written for the purpose of communicating truth. Or, Catholics could interpret it both ways. Nowhere that I am aware of does the Catholic Church require Catholics to believe they are historical accounts as we would understand history in our contemporary sense (if you know otherwise, please share, thanks).There was a reference to Judith and Tobit being fiction.
A
adriancombe
Guest
Judith is a type of Mary and Tobit is the basis for St Raphael being the Patron of healing and courtship. Scripture is true. Once you start saying “technically it’s not defined as non-fiction” you pretty much open the floodgates to slippery slope Hell (sorry for the mixed metaphor).It’s not heretical to believe that they were fictional stories, at least to the Catholic Church. Catholics are free to believe it is an accurate historical account, or that it was a fictional tale written for the purpose of communicating truth. Or, Catholics could interpret it both ways. Nowhere that I am aware of does the Catholic Church require Catholics to believe they are historical accounts as we would understand history in our contemporary sense (if you know otherwise, please share, thanks).
Once you go there, who is to say you can’t say Moses is fiction? What about King David?And Jesus of Nazareth?
D
diggerdomer
Guest
The Church.Once you go there, who is to say you can’t say Moses is fiction? What about King David?And Jesus of Nazareth?
A
adriancombe
Guest
Be specific. Are you claiming the Church has specifically stated that Exodus is not fiction, but other works could be - and which ones?The Church.
The Scripture is the truth. Claiming that certain works could be fiction without specific magisterial (or at least patristic) support seems dishonest and dangerous.
J
juliamajor
Guest
Ma’am -
Your wording misled me, or left you open to misunderstanding, imho.
I merely responded to how the words you wrote represented you, ie your own words judged you, and I just commented on it.
What worries me, is if you throw postmodern (it reads like post-modern talk, to me) attitudes around while you teach the Holy Bible.
I have been taught to instruct one on one, the people’s lives that I instructed depending upon my sticking to SOP and not being misunderstood. If I varied, a USMC pilot could die and a Marine jet would be totalled.
Later, in civilian life, several different employers utilized my ability to orientate new hires; for example in 1968, on the final assembly line of DC-8’s. Again, lives counted on my instructing properly the new hires. We had to do our jobs right, so that bird wouldn’t fall out of the sky. I had to get the information across without being misunderstood.
By 1980 my employer at that time paid me a living wage to instruct new hires both OJT in my taxi and in a classroom with training aids when two or more. Again, lives were in my and in my students’ hands. I couldn’t afford to be misunderstood. People would die.
So, I have that insight into instructing; and you have eternal souls that you are responsible for. If you leave yourself open to your students misunderstanding…I’m sorry ma’am but one of the duties of instruction is to avoid being misunderstood.
Again, and in closing, your plea of being misunderstood judges you, not I. With eternal lives at stake, neither can you afford to be misunderstood. With all due respect neither postmodern thinking nor skepticism has any place in Bible study. I’ve led one of those, too a good while back.
FYI, I think you left off one verse too soon, imho, to get Jesus’ point across: Matt 24, 39 (NAB) “They were totally unconcerned until the flood came and destroyed them. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.”
Those word of warning apply to our time. He was talking about the end times.
I would really like for you to be a better instructor, than you come across as, by your own words.
J
juliamajor
Guest
Thanks for your kind words! You seem to specialize in ad hominem attacks.I have used none.I have showed respect to you.
being neither a pilot or in the military ,people in my class are free to have me clarify what I’ve said or ask me questions.I would say about half of my class time is questions-it’s the best way to learn.
I may have been called many things in my life but I 've never been accused of bad teaching,bad faith ,post modernism or skepticism .Quite the opposite. If it was unclear to you, well I’m sorry .It seemed and still seems clear to me.
Nothing I said was deserving of the unkind , and very hurtful words you used.They did hurt-a lot.
It has taken me 4 years of school and many years of study to get where I am today-I started with three students and now have over 25 students.I don’t take it lightly and strive to make my classes better and pray daily for it.
Have a Happy and safe Thanksgiving.Be at peace.
And yes-God is Love
being neither a pilot or in the military ,people in my class are free to have me clarify what I’ve said or ask me questions.I would say about half of my class time is questions-it’s the best way to learn.
I may have been called many things in my life but I 've never been accused of bad teaching,bad faith ,post modernism or skepticism .Quite the opposite. If it was unclear to you, well I’m sorry .It seemed and still seems clear to me.
Nothing I said was deserving of the unkind , and very hurtful words you used.They did hurt-a lot.
It has taken me 4 years of school and many years of study to get where I am today-I started with three students and now have over 25 students.I don’t take it lightly and strive to make my classes better and pray daily for it.
Have a Happy and safe Thanksgiving.Be at peace.
And yes-God is Love
J
juliamajor
Guest
Actually it’s from the Holy See WebsiteIs there some magisterial source for your theory about biblical fiction, or is this simply the heresy du jour?
Help
Tobit
Introduction
The Book of Tobit, named after its principal hero, combines specifically Jewish piety and morality with oriental folklore in a fascinating story that has enjoyed wide popularity in both Jewish and Christian circles. Prayers, psalms, and words of wisdom, as well as the skillfully constructed story itself, provide valuable insights into the faith and the religious milieu of its unknown author. The book was probably written early in the second century B.C.; it is not known where.
Tobit, a devout and wealthy Israelite living among the captives deported to Nineveh from the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 B.C., suffers severe reverses and is finally blinded. Because of his misfortunes he begs the Lord to let him die. But recalling the large sum he had formerly deposited in far-off Media, he sends his son Tobiah there to bring back the money. In Media, at this same time, a young woman, Sarah, also prays for death, because she has lost seven husbands, each killed in turn on his wedding night by the demon Asmodeus. God hears the prayers of Tobit and Sarah, and sends the angel Raphael in disguise to aid them both.
Raphael makes the trip to Media with Tobiah. When Tobiah is attacked by a large fish as he bathes, Raphael orders him to seize it and to remove its gall, heart, and liver because they make “useful medicines.” Later, at Raphael’s urging, Tobiah marries Sarah, and uses the the fish’s heart and liver to drive Asmodeus from the bridal chamber. Returning to Nineveh with his wife and his father’s money, Tobiah rubs the fish’s gall into his father’s eyes and cures them. Finally, Raphael reveals his true identity and returns to heaven. Tobit then utters his beautiful hymn of praise. Before dying, Tobit tells his son to leave Nineveh because God will destroy that wicked city. After Tobiah buries his father and mother, he and his family depart for Media, where he later learns that the destruction of Nineveh has taken place.
The inspired author of the book used the literary form of religious novel (as in Jonah and Judith) for the purpose of instruction and edification. There may have been a historical nucleus around which the story was composed, but this possibility has nothing to do with the teaching of the book. The seemingly historical data-names of kings, cities, etc.-are used merely as vivid details to create interest and charm.
Although the Book of Tobit is usually listed with the historical books, it more correctly stands midway between them and the wisdom literature. It contains numerous maxims like those found in the wisdom books (cf ⇒ Tobit 4:3-19, ⇒ 21; ⇒ 12:6-10; ⇒ 14:7, 9) as well as the customary sapiential themes: fidelity to the law, the intercessory function of angels, piety toward parents, the purity of marriage, reverence for the dead, and the value of almsgiving, prayer, and fasting. The book makes Tobit a relative of Ahiqar, a hero of ancient Near Eastern folklore.
Written in Aramaic, the original of the book was lost for centuries. The Greek translation, existing in three different recensions, is our primary source. In 1955, fragments of the book in Aramaic and in Hebrew were recovered from Cave IV at Qumran. These texts are in substantial agreement with the Greek recension that has served as the basis for the present translation.
The divisions of the Book of Tobit are:
Code:
I. Tobit's Ordeals (⇒ Tobit 1:3-⇒ 3:6)
II. Sarah's Plight (⇒ Tobit 3:7-17)
III. Tobiah's Journey and Marriage to Sarah (⇒ Tobit 4:1-⇒ 9:6)
IV. Tobiah's Return; Cure of Tobit's Blindness (⇒ Tobit 10:1-⇒ 11:18)
V. Raphael Reveals His Identity (⇒ Tobit 12:1-22)
VI. Tobit's Song of Praise (⇒ Tobit 13:1-18)
VII. Epilogue (⇒ Tobit 14:1-15)Previous - Next
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J
juliamajor
Guest
Judith
Introduction
The Book of Judith is a vivid story relating how, in a grave crisis, God delivered the Jewish people through the instrumentality of a woman. The unknown author composed this edifying narrative of divine providence at the end of the second or the beginning of the first century B.C. The original was almost certainly written in Hebrew, but the Greek text shows so much freedom in adapting from the Septuagint the language of older biblical books that it must be regarded as having a literary character of its own. It is this Greek form of the book, accepted as canonical by the Catholic Church, which is translated here. St. Jerome, who prepared (with some reluctance) a Latin text of Judith, based his work on a secondary Aramaic text available to him in Palestine, combined with an older Latin rendering from the Greek. The long hymn of Jdt 16 he took in its entirety from that earlier Latin text.
Since it is no longer possible to determine with any precision the underlying events which may have given rise to this narrative, it is enough to note that the author sought to strengthen the faith of his people in God’s abiding presence among them. The Book of Judith is a tract for difficult times; the reader, it was hoped, would take to heart the lesson that God was still the Master of history, who could save Israel from her enemies. Note the parallel with the time of the Exodus: as God had delivered his people by the hand of Moses, so he could deliver them by the hand of the pious widow Judith (see note on ⇒ Judith 2:12).
The story can be divided into two parts. In the first (Jdt 1-7), Holofernes, commander-in-chief of the armies of Nebuchadnezzar, leads an overwhelming Assyrian force in a punitive campaign against the vassals who refused to help in the Assyrian war against the Medes. The Jewish people stubbornly resist the enemy at Bethulia, guarding the route of access to Jerusalem. Despite the warning of Achior that the Jews cannot be conquered unless they sin against God, the proud general lays siege to the town and cuts off its water supply. After asiege of thirty-four days, the exhausted defenders are desperate and ready to surrender.
At this point, the climax of the story, Judith (the name means “Jewess”) appears and promises to defeat the Assyrians. The rest of the story is too well known to repeat in detail. Having fasted and prayed, Judith dresses in her finest garments and proceeds to the Assyrian camp, where she succeeds in killing Holofernes while he lies in a drunken stupor. The Assyrians panic when they discover this, and the Jews are able to rout and slaughter them. The beautiful hymn of the people honoring Judith (⇒ Judith 15:9-10) is often applied to Mary in the liturgy.
Any attempt to read the book directly against the backdrop of Jewish history in relation to the empires of the ancient world is bound to fail. The story was written as a pious reflection on the meaning of the yearly Passover observance. It draws its inspiration from the Exodus narrative (especially ⇒ Exodus 14:31) and from the texts of Isaiah and the Psalms portraying the special intervention of God for the preservation of Jerusalem. The theme of God’s hand as the agent of this providential activity, reflected of old in the hand of Moses and now in the hand of Judith, is again exemplified at a later time in Jewish synagogue art. God’s hand reaching down from heaven appears as part of the scene at Dura-Europos (before A.D. 256) in paintings of the Exodus, of the sacrifice of Isaac (Gen 22), and of Ezekiel’s valley of dry bones (Eze 37).
J
juliamajor
Guest
Jonah
Introduction
Written in the postexilic era, probably in the fifth century B.C., this book is a didactic story with an important theological message. It concerns a disobedient prophet who attempted to run away from his divine commission, was cast overboard and swallowed by a great fish, rescued in a marvelous manner, and sent on his way to Nineveh, the traditional enemy of Israel. To the surprise of Jonah, the wicked city listened to his message of doom and repented immediately. All, from king to lowliest subject, humbled themselves in sackcloth and ashes. Seeing their repentance, God did not carry out the punishment he had planned for them. Whereupon Jonah complained to God about the unexpected success of his mission; he was bitter because Yahweh, instead of destroying, had led the people to repentance and then spared them.
From the Holy SEE website
From this partly humorous story, a very sublime lesson may be drawn. Jonah stands for a narrow and vindictive mentality, all too common among the Jews of that period. Because they were the chosen people, a good many of them cultivated an intolerant nationalism which limited the mercy of God to their nation. It was abhorrent to their way of thinking that nations as wicked as Assyria should escape his wrath.
The prophecy, which is both instructive and entertaining, strikes directly at this viewpoint. It is a parable of mercy, showing that God’s threatened punishments are but the expression of a merciful will which moves all men to repent and seek forgiveness. The universality of the story contrasts sharply with the particularistic spirit of many in the postexilic community. The book has also prepared the way for the gospel with its message of redemption for all, both Jew and Gentile.
Introduction
Written in the postexilic era, probably in the fifth century B.C., this book is a didactic story with an important theological message. It concerns a disobedient prophet who attempted to run away from his divine commission, was cast overboard and swallowed by a great fish, rescued in a marvelous manner, and sent on his way to Nineveh, the traditional enemy of Israel. To the surprise of Jonah, the wicked city listened to his message of doom and repented immediately. All, from king to lowliest subject, humbled themselves in sackcloth and ashes. Seeing their repentance, God did not carry out the punishment he had planned for them. Whereupon Jonah complained to God about the unexpected success of his mission; he was bitter because Yahweh, instead of destroying, had led the people to repentance and then spared them.
From the Holy SEE website
From this partly humorous story, a very sublime lesson may be drawn. Jonah stands for a narrow and vindictive mentality, all too common among the Jews of that period. Because they were the chosen people, a good many of them cultivated an intolerant nationalism which limited the mercy of God to their nation. It was abhorrent to their way of thinking that nations as wicked as Assyria should escape his wrath.
The prophecy, which is both instructive and entertaining, strikes directly at this viewpoint. It is a parable of mercy, showing that God’s threatened punishments are but the expression of a merciful will which moves all men to repent and seek forgiveness. The universality of the story contrasts sharply with the particularistic spirit of many in the postexilic community. The book has also prepared the way for the gospel with its message of redemption for all, both Jew and Gentile.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
Sorry not to be more specific.Be specific. Are you claiming the Church has specifically stated that Exodus is not fiction, but other works could be - and which ones?
The Scripture is the truth. Claiming that certain works could be fiction without specific magisterial (or at least patristic) support seems dishonest and dangerous.
“Once you go there, who is to say you can’t say Moses is fiction? What about King David?And Jesus of Nazareth?”
You ask “who is to say?” and I say the Church. If Catholics need to believe as a matter of faith that this or that person or episode in Scripture is historically true, or if Catholics need to believe as a matter of faith that this or that person or episode is fictional…then the Church will say so. Just as the Church professes the factual humanity and divinity of Jesus, this historical nature of the Gospels, and so on.
Of course Catholics consider Scripture the truth. To claim that there is only one way to interpret all Scripture in order to discover what truth God intended to have preserved there is not what the Catholic Church teaches.
J
JP_Marat
Guest
RESPONSE:Be specific. Are you claiming the Church has specifically stated that Exodus is not fiction, but other works could be - and which ones?
The Scripture is the truth. Claiming that certain works could be fiction without specific magisterial (or at least patristic) support seems dishonest and dangerous.
Also completely accurate.
Among the fictional works are:
Judith
Tobit
Esther
Job,
etc.
JPM
S
SHW
Guest
I believe that these people actually lived and that God used their life “stories” to teach His people.RESPONSE:
Also completely accurate.
Among the fictional works are:
Judith
Tobit
Esther
Job,
etc.
JPM
Genesis 46:13
The sons of Issachar were Tola, Puvah, Job, and Shimron.
Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uz
Ezekiel 14:13-14
“Son of man, when a land sins against Me by persistent unfaithfulness, I will stretch out My hand against it; I will cut off its supply of bread, send famine on it, and cut off man and beast from it. 14 Even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness,” says the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 14:19-20
“Or if I send a pestilence into that land and pour out My fury on it in blood, and cut off from it man and beast, 20 even though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live,” says the Lord GOD, “they would deliver neither son nor daughter; they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness.”
James 5:11
Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.
A
adriancombe
Guest
URL please.Actually it’s from the Holy See Website
Help
Tobit
Introduction
The Book of Tobit, named after its principal hero, combines specifically Jewish piety and morality with oriental folklore in a fascinating story that has enjoyed wide popularity in both Jewish and Christian circles. Prayers, psalms, and words of wisdom, as well as the skillfully constructed story itself, provide valuable insights into the faith and the religious milieu of its unknown author. The book was probably written early in the second century B.C.; it is not known where.
Tobit, a devout and wealthy Israelite living among the captives deported to Nineveh from the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 B.C., suffers severe reverses and is finally blinded. Because of his misfortunes he begs the Lord to let him die. But recalling the large sum he had formerly deposited in far-off Media, he sends his son Tobiah there to bring back the money. In Media, at this same time, a young woman, Sarah, also prays for death, because she has lost seven husbands, each killed in turn on his wedding night by the demon Asmodeus. God hears the prayers of Tobit and Sarah, and sends the angel Raphael in disguise to aid them both.
Raphael makes the trip to Media with Tobiah. When Tobiah is attacked by a large fish as he bathes, Raphael orders him to seize it and to remove its gall, heart, and liver because they make “useful medicines.” Later, at Raphael’s urging, Tobiah marries Sarah, and uses the the fish’s heart and liver to drive Asmodeus from the bridal chamber. Returning to Nineveh with his wife and his father’s money, Tobiah rubs the fish’s gall into his father’s eyes and cures them. Finally, Raphael reveals his true identity and returns to heaven. Tobit then utters his beautiful hymn of praise. Before dying, Tobit tells his son to leave Nineveh because God will destroy that wicked city. After Tobiah buries his father and mother, he and his family depart for Media, where he later learns that the destruction of Nineveh has taken place.
The inspired author of the book used the literary form of religious novel (as in Jonah and Judith) for the purpose of instruction and edification. There may have been a historical nucleus around which the story was composed, but this possibility has nothing to do with the teaching of the book. The seemingly historical data-names of kings, cities, etc.-are used merely as vivid details to create interest and charm.
Although the Book of Tobit is usually listed with the historical books, it more correctly stands midway between them and the wisdom literature. It contains numerous maxims like those found in the wisdom books (cf ⇒ Tobit 4:3-19, ⇒ 21; ⇒ 12:6-10; ⇒ 14:7, 9) as well as the customary sapiential themes: fidelity to the law, the intercessory function of angels, piety toward parents, the purity of marriage, reverence for the dead, and the value of almsgiving, prayer, and fasting. The book makes Tobit a relative of Ahiqar, a hero of ancient Near Eastern folklore.
Written in Aramaic, the original of the book was lost for centuries. The Greek translation, existing in three different recensions, is our primary source. In 1955, fragments of the book in Aramaic and in Hebrew were recovered from Cave IV at Qumran. These texts are in substantial agreement with the Greek recension that has served as the basis for the present translation.
The divisions of the Book of Tobit are:
Code:I. Tobit's Ordeals (⇒ Tobit 1:3-⇒ 3:6) II. Sarah's Plight (⇒ Tobit 3:7-17) III. Tobiah's Journey and Marriage to Sarah (⇒ Tobit 4:1-⇒ 9:6) IV. Tobiah's Return; Cure of Tobit's Blindness (⇒ Tobit 10:1-⇒ 11:18) V. Raphael Reveals His Identity (⇒ Tobit 12:1-22) VI. Tobit's Song of Praise (⇒ Tobit 13:1-18) VII. Epilogue (⇒ Tobit 14:1-15)
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D
diggerdomer
Guest
A
adriancombe
Guest
I never claimed that. There usually is more than one sense. It’s in the catechism. Literal and spiritual. The spiritual can divided into allegorical, moral and anagogical. All other senses are based on the literal. (The fictional is not in the list.)Sorry not to be more specific.
“Once you go there, who is to say you can’t say Moses is fiction? What about King David?And Jesus of Nazareth?”
You ask “who is to say?” and I say the Church. If Catholics need to believe as a matter of faith that this or that person or episode in Scripture is historically true, or if Catholics need to believe as a matter of faith that this or that person or episode is fictional…then the Church will say so. Just as the Church professes the factual humanity and divinity of Jesus, this historical nature of the Gospels, and so on.
Of course Catholics consider Scripture the truth. To claim that there is only one way to interpret all Scripture in order to discover what truth God intended to have preserved there is not what the Catholic Church teaches.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
I agree with the Catechism. But, the “senses” of scripture I presume you refer to (CCC 115-119, please correct me if I am wrong) refer to interpretations of Scripture, not the* literary form.*I never claimed that. There usually is more than one sense. It’s in the catechism. Literal and spiritual. The spiritual can divided into allegorical, moral and anagogical. All other senses are based on the literal. (The fictional is not in the list.)
To understand how “fiction” is a literary form in the Bible, and how the Church understands it, refer to e.g. CCC 109-110.
Scripture contains a variety of literary forms. All may be interpreted e.g. the ways enumerated in CCC 115-119.
Hope this helps.
A
adriancombe
Guest
**109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75I agree with the Catechism. But, the “senses” of scripture I presume you refer to (CCC 115-119, please correct me if I am wrong) refer to interpretations of Scripture, not the* literary form.*
To understand how “fiction” is a literary form in the Bible, and how the Church understands it, refer to e.g. CCC 109-110.
Scripture contains a variety of literary forms. All may be interpreted e.g. the ways enumerated in CCC 115-119.
Hope this helps.
110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76
**
Of course - it doesn’t specify fiction as one of the genres - but it doesn’t exclude it either. At best, we are back where we started. From what I have seen, when the Scripture intends to be fiction, it hits you over the head with it, so to speak, as e.g. a parable. Conversely, historical accounts are filled with salvifically important events, such as marriages (Tobit) or wars (Judith). There are other considerations, but suffice it to say it would take a lot to convince me these are not historical.
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