Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

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**109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76
**

Of course - it doesn’t specify fiction as one of the genres - but it doesn’t exclude it either. At best, we are back where we started. From what I have seen, when the Scripture intends to be fiction, it hits you over the head with it, so to speak, as e.g. a parable. Conversely, historical accounts are filled with salvifically important events, such as marriages (Tobit) or wars (Judith). There are other considerations, but suffice it to say it would take a lot to convince me these are not historical.
Right, Catholics are free to understand books like Tobit and Judith as historical/factual, or as fiction. The Church does not require one or the other. Either understanding leaves one open to the inspired truth the Church understands these books to teach.
 
Right, Catholics are free to understand books like Tobit and Judith as historical/factual, or as fiction. The Church does not require one or the other. Either understanding leaves one open to the inspired truth the Church understands these books to teach.
I find that a dubious statement. There is no patristic foundation for understanding any work of the OT as fiction, AFAIK.
 
I find that a dubious statement. There is no patristic foundation for understanding any work of the OT as fiction, AFAIK.
Ok. Can you provide any current Church teaching that requires Catholics to hold these books as factually true? I can’t.
 
Ok. Can you provide any current Church teaching that requires Catholics to hold these books as factually true? I can’t.
The literal sense statements take care of it. If you interpret ‘literally true’ as ‘could be fiction’ you don’t seem to leave a lot of room for the Church to be saying what they are trying to say.
 
The literal sense statements take care of it. If you interpret ‘literally true’ as ‘could be fiction’ you don’t seem to leave a lot of room for the Church to be saying what they are trying to say.
I’m not sure what you mean by “leave a lot of room for the Church to be saying what they are trying to say” – can you clarify? Thanks.
 
I’m not sure what you mean by “leave a lot of room for the Church to be saying what they are trying to say” – can you clarify? Thanks.
Ok so, you’ve got 1700+ years of Church history. Then some folks get all modernistic and say you don’t have to believe the Bible is true. Then a Pope or two comes out explicitly condemning modernism. Then some squirrelly ‘theologians’ come along and say yes the Bible is true in a certain sense. THEN the church says ok how about ‘literally true PLUS any secondary tertiary etc senses have to be built ON the literla sense’. Then some folks say ‘AH but yes you see the literary genre clause lets us call it fiction!’.

It reminds me of the arms race. Anyhow, I doubt we’ll ever see eye to eye on this, we seem to agree on many keys areas, but maybe we should just agree to disagree for now.

Pax tibi.
 
Ok so, you’ve got 1700+ years of Church history. Then some folks get all modernistic and say you don’t have to believe the Bible is true. Then a Pope or two comes out explicitly condemning modernism. Then some squirrelly ‘theologians’ come along and say yes the Bible is true in a certain sense. THEN the church says ok how about ‘literally true PLUS any secondary tertiary etc senses have to be built ON the literla sense’. Then some folks say ‘AH but yes you see the literary genre clause lets us call it fiction!’.

It reminds me of the arms race. Anyhow, I doubt we’ll ever see eye to eye on this, we seem to agree on many keys areas, but maybe we should just agree to disagree for now.

Pax tibi.
The Church does not say (and I never said) that one does not have to believe the Bible is true.
 
Thanks for your kind words! You seem to specialize in ad hominem attacks.I have used none.I have showed respect to you.
being neither a pilot or in the military ,people in my class are free to have me clarify what I’ve said or ask me questions.I would say about half of my class time is questions-it’s the best way to learn.
I may have been called many things in my life but I 've never been accused of bad teaching,bad faith ,post modernism or skepticism .Quite the opposite. If it was unclear to you, well I’m sorry .It seemed and still seems clear to me.
Nothing I said was deserving of the unkind , and very hurtful words you used.They did hurt-a lot.
It has taken me 4 years of school and many years of study to get where I am today-I started with three students and now have over 25 students.I don’t take it lightly and strive to make my classes better and pray daily for it.
Have a Happy and safe Thanksgiving.Be at peace.
And yes-God is Love
I did not intend to hurt you, and I apologize. Sometimes I am bluntly spoken.
All I said, as the grist of my post, was,
  1. You have eternal souls in your hands during a Holy Bible study.
  2. You can’t afford to be misunderstood.
  3. I wish you were a better teacher than you come across as.
Thank you for your well-wishes. May you also have a blessed, safe and peaceful Thanksgiving Day and dinner.
 
I am a better teacher than I come across as!
I strive and study to be a better one for the glory of God. PAX
 
absolutely and can do no other since Jesus Christ and our first Pope Peter both recognised it absolutely - twinc
 
The Church does not say (and I never said) that one does not have to believe the Bible is true.
the Church does say that the Bible is totally inerrant in all its parts and that the literal and obvious sense must be accepted unless reason ot necessity dictate otherwise - twinc
 
absolutely and can do no other since Jesus Christ and our first Pope Peter both recognised it absolutely - twinc
RESPONSE:

Could they have been in error?

Or more accurately, since the Gospels were written long after their lives, could it be that the writers simply inserted references into the gospel story of what Jesus and Peter were supposed to have said?
 
RESPONSE:

Could they have been in error?

Or more accurately, since the Gospels were written long after their lives, could it be that the writers simply inserted references into the gospel story of what Jesus and Peter were supposed to have said?
Long is a relative term. When the Gospels were written is not agreed upon. I favor the traditional dates of 40 to 50 for Matthew to 90 for John. These dates have never been refuted according to historian Warren Carroll, just abandoned by academic fashion. At any rate even by modern dating of 60-70, would be a stretch to call in long after.
 
If one wishes to know the Catholic understanding of Scriptural inerrancy, then one should consult Providentissimus Deus of Pope Leo XIII, which is a majestic document, and the equally marvellous Divino afflante Spiritu of Pius XII. Both Popes are adamant that there is no error in Scripture, yet neither find contradiction in asserting that a narrow focus on the ‘historicity’ of the texts is often counter-productive. One should also consult Pope Benedict XVI’s writings (as Card. Ratzinger) on ‘historicism’ in Biblical studies (see e.g. christendom-awake.org/pages/ratzinger/biblical-crisis.htm)

In fact, the Church has hardly ever deemed it fit to pronounce on the ‘literal’ meaning of any passages of Scripture, except for those where the historical fact is obviously crucial for our faith (e.g. the Resurrection, a sine qua non for any Christian, as St Paul affirms). To that extent, a considerable amount may be considered ‘up for grabs’ in the sense that one is never allowed to believe that the author made a mistake or lied - but what constitutes a mistake? The Church does not comment unless she really has to, but the author’s intention (both the human and Divine author) is preserved by Sacred Tradition, which gives us the hermeneutic to see what is True (rather than merely true) in the passage in question.

Where an historical fact is stated or presumed, I would argue it is perverse to assume it didn’t happen unless there are very good reasons as in the book of Judith. In Judith, it is in fact missing the point altogether to suppose that the author ever intended to provide a factual historical account, and in fact most Catholic scholars nowadays are inclined to think that the precise opposite is intended, i.e. deliberate ‘errors’ which draw the reader into the real meaning of the text - signposts, if you will. If you refuse to play this game, then it is in fact you who are imposing on the text and therefore on God the sort of limitations that Pope Leo XIII condemns so forcefully.

When Our Lord, or St Peter, or any of the Church Fathers refer to the Old Testament stories, again you are entirely missing the point, and therefore doing Our Lord no good service, if you construe such statements merely as affirmations of historical fact. No, Our Lord repeatedly shows how everything in the Hebrew literature was pointing towards Him; it’s Truth is precisely contained in the fact that it was about Him. This is the hermeneutic that Our Lord bequeathed to the Apostles, and which they consistently demonstrate. In fact, if you look at the biblical studies of the Fathers, they are hardly ever concerned with historicity and extremely interested in allegorizing - reading with the hermeneutic of Truth, that is the fulfilment of Christ.

None of which is to say that the historical details cannot be right as well! As I said, one should assume they are historically grounded until proven otherwise. In the case of Noah’s flood, I think we can learn something from recent developments in Homeric studies and work on near-eastern epics. Although there are massive divisions among scholars on the thorny question of oral poetry, nearly everyone is at least agreed now that Homer’s poetry derives from an oral tradition stretching back way into the previous millennium or further; there is considerable contact with the aforementioned Giglamesh, and various other epic titbits. Recent studies have shown these cropping up in the Homeric Hymns (not by Homer!!) as well, while it has been known for a long time that much of Old Testament narrative has features in common with this culture.

Therefore, I think we can say with confidence that the biblical account of Noah’s flood derives from an oral culture, the same oral culture which produced Gilgamesh and the various other versions of the story. However, the next interesting question is what gives rise to the original oral creation: and in the case of Homer’s epics, it is now widely accepted that there really was a Trojan War. In fact, not just one war but several! The probability (in my view, having researched this at length) is that Troy became associated with famous wars to the extent that all kinds of stories developed about it, and different aspects got added into the tradition at different times and places before the eventual song we now know as the Iliad.

I’d suggest the same happened with Noah’s Ark, in so far as there probably was a great flood, as has in fact been confirmed by some archeological evidence. This was probably great enough to spawn many stories, but what distinguishes the Jewish version was that they could understand the events through the eyes of Revelation. Therefore the bits that got ‘added in’ are not so much embellishments of mythology, as in the Homeric tradition, but rather readings of that tradition provided by God Himself. And it is therefore these readings, and not any supposed historicity, which has the ultimate value for us today. We are not required to be historians, but we are required to listen to what God wants us to hear; and we will hear this if we read the Old Testament as Our Lord read it, i.e. through His person.

(Sorry for the length of this comment, but I hope it clarifies a few misconceptions in the discussion so far).
 
I’m pretty late into the discussion, but to answer the OP’s original question,

The Catholic Church has not made any official pronouncement about whether or not the story is literally true. The only thing it has said, if I’m not mistaken, is that the Bible is completely inerrant.

However, that doesn’t mean that every story in the Bible should be taken literally. The Bible is a book written by over 40 authors in a span of several hundred years-- meaning that the Biblical stories are in many different genres. Some are in fact history but some are allegory, metaphor, poetry, etc.

I think it’s possible that the story of Noah’s ark was simply meant to be taken as a metaphor, but I also think it could be historical (But I take it as a “local”, not global flood-- see here: godandscience.org/apologetics/localflood.html#ihs6kXNV5itL)

You asked how we could accept Adam and Eve as literal and then dismiss Noah’s Ark as metophorical. That’s a good question. We must keep in mind that Adam and Eve could indeed but real, but the story metophorical. Perhaps the fruit on the tree was simply a metphor for disobeying God-- a way so that ancient people could simply understand Adam and Eve’s sin. Unlike fundamentalists, Catholics don’t see things in black and white-- an extremely literal interpretation or total heresy. There are many shades of gray in between.

I hope this helps!!

God bless,
 
the Church does say that the Bible is totally inerrant in all its parts and that the literal and obvious sense must be accepted unless reason ot necessity dictate otherwise - twinc
Where? Thanks.
 
Long is a relative term. When the Gospels were written is not agreed upon. I favor the traditional dates of 40 to 50 for Matthew to 90 for John. These dates have never been refuted according to historian Warren Carroll, just abandoned by academic fashion. At any rate even by modern dating of 60-70, would be a stretch to call in long after.
The traditional dates for Matthew that I’m aware of from Catholic scholars is the 70s-80s. Not a stretch at all.
 
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