Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

[MrZetterlund]

Probably if you mean near space; (below the moon’s orbit) you’d be right. But as someone else pointed out, space is so enormous that it just doesn’t compare.

Probably. But it may not have covered the whole planet, since human life only existed in a small area. And all the world’s species would not have fit in the craft described.

Actually the atmosphere was DENSER in the earth’s past than now, and held more oxygen.

If you reread Genesis, you’d see that human life was very long prior to the flood (800 to 969 years); and falls off rapidly after it (until Moses lived only 120 years). Those people knew what a year was; so something changed in the earth or its atmosphere to cause human beings to die more easily; a loss of oxygen could have been part of it.

ICXC NIKA.

Well, this debate just trailed off without me in a short period of time.
I believe that through micro-evolution he could have fit all species onto the ark. The ark was the size of 522 standard box cars, that could hold 125,000 sheep.
Surely it was world wide, I watched a full lecture of flood evidence in Australia.
Sorry, I thought a “dense” atmosphere ment “less” oxygen?

 

[SHW]

…I’d suggest the same happened with Noah’s Ark, in so far as there probably was a great flood, as has in fact been confirmed by some archeological evidence. This was probably great enough to spawn many stories, but** what distinguishes the Jewish version was that they could understand the events through the eyes of Revelation**. Therefore the bits that got ‘added in’ are not so much embellishments of mythology, as in the Homeric tradition, but rather readings of that tradition provided by God Himself. And it is therefore these readings, and not any supposed historicity, which has the ultimate value for us today. We are not required to be historians, but we are required to listen to what God wants us to hear; and we will hear this if we read the Old Testament as Our Lord read it, i.e. through His person.

Good points.

 

[SHW]

RESPONSE:

The term “tradition” is used to assert that some teaching is true because that’s what always was taught. Frequently, there is no evidence to support this claim.

I agree. First, one person’s interpretation of Scripture and/or thoughts on a subject are taught to the members of his class. Then, they go on to teach others the same thing. But, this does not mean that the original Scripture interpretation and/or thought process is true or factual. This is why most Protestants do not believe that the Holy Eucharist is Jesus under the appearances of bread and wine. Persons decided that It wasn’t and then passed their false knowledge on to others.

 

[SHW]

I believe it’s true. We know less about our own oceans then we do about outer pace. I think the compiling of all those other flood myths only supports the idea that a flood accured. Do you know why things don’t grow as large as dinosuars and other pre-historic animals? Because the atmosphere is too dense. That’s EXACTLY why nose-picking skeptics complain that a flood COULD NOT have accured, is the increase of the atmosphere’s density. And remember, the purpose of the flood was to destroy the Nephilim (giants.)

I believe that the flood actually occurred also. The purpose of the flood was to kill all disobedient mankind.

Genesis 6:3-6
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

RSV-CE Genesis 6:3-6 Then the LORD said, “My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them.** These were the mighty men** that were of old, the men of renown.
5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

These mighty men, Nephilim, were on earth before they married the daughters of men and also after they married them.

Adam’s righteous lineage through Seth (sons of God) had chosen pagan women (daughters of men/Cain) and this was against God’s will. They soon chose the pagan ways of their wives. These men were giants in that they were men of renown or mighty men because everyone could see that these men had been blessed by God’s favor because they could see the numbers of and the quality of their possessions. Their body size did not matter. However, there were giant-sized men on the earth like Goliath, but he was a pagan. Many Jews believe that Goliath was the descendant of Orpah. (Ruth 1:13-15) She was one of the daughters-in-law of Naomi. Ruth, Naomi’s other daughter-in-law, married Boaz and this lineage is the lineage of David and Jesus.

Some of the Sons of God in Jesus’ lineage:
Luke 3:31-32
the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,

The descendants of Adam through Seth were righteous men or sons of God. The descendants of Adam through Cain were not righteous, but were cursed. When they intermarried and committed one sin after another, God was grieved and He was sorry that He had ever made man.

More of the Sons of God in Jesus’ lineage:

Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Adam was the first human son of God.

 

[MrZetterlund]

I believe that the flood actually occurred also. The purpose of the flood was to kill all disobedient mankind.

Genesis 6:3-6
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

RSV-CE Genesis 6:3-6 Then the LORD said, “My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them.** These were the mighty men** that were of old, the men of renown.
5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

These mighty men, Nephilim, were on earth before they married the daughters of men and also after they married them.

Adam’s righteous lineage through Seth (sons of God) had chosen pagan women (daughters of men/Cain) and this was against God’s will. They soon chose the pagan ways of their wives. These men were giants in that they were men of renown or mighty men because everyone could see that these men had been blessed by God’s favor because they could see the numbers of and the quality of their possessions. Their body size did not matter. However, there were giant-sized men on the earth like Goliath, but he was a pagan. Many Jews believe that Goliath was the descendant of Orpah. (Ruth 1:13-15) She was one of the daughters-in-law of Naomi. Ruth, Naomi’s other daughter-in-law, married Boaz and this lineage is the lineage of David and Jesus.

Some of the Sons of God in Jesus’ lineage:
Luke 3:31-32
the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,

The descendants of Adam through Seth were righteous men or sons of God. The descendants of Adam through Cain were not righteous, but were cursed. When they intermarried and committed one sin after another, God was grieved and He was sorry that He had ever made man.

More of the Sons of God in Jesus’ lineage:

Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Adam was the first human son of God.

Uh… I agree accept I believe there were literal giants. There’s myths about giants all throughout the world, corresponding with one-another. I was watching the history channel about the odyessy and it’s historical accuracy. They said women would actually give birth to cyclopses because of a type of plant that grew in the area. And in the book of Enoch, which goes into GREAT detail about the flood, talks about how the fallen sons of god (who are angels, not humans) introduced plants to the daughters of men. Along with other teachings in science, medicine, and labor. But maybe this stoy is meant to have a double meaning.

 

[SHW]

Uh… I agree accept I believe there were literal giants. There’s myths about giants all throughout the world, corresponding with one-another. I was watching the history channel about the odyessy and it’s historical accuracy. They said women would actually give birth to cyclopses because of a type of plant that grew in the area. And in the book of Enoch, which goes into GREAT detail about the flood, talks about how the fallen sons of god (who are angels, not humans) introduced plants to the daughters of men. Along with other teachings in science, medicine, and labor. But maybe this stoy is meant to have a double meaning.

I agree that there were literal giant men (in size) and that Goliath was one. But, the book of Enoch is full of myths/fables and that is one reason why it was not part of the Canons of either Jews or Christians. Plants do have biological effects upon humans and Satan can influence people to use them to induce abortions or whatever other ungodly purpose he wants to. But, no fallen angel married a human and then produced a giant offspring. Genesis 6 is all about humans only (men made of flesh).

Titus 1:13-15
This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Angels can also be called sons of God since God created them with a spiritual nature in His own image and likeness just as He also created the human sons of God with a human nature in His own image and likeness because both humans and angels have free will and if they are led by the Spirit of God, then they are sons of God.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Luke 20:35-37
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore,** for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection**. 37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’

 

[adriancombe]

Do you not?

There is much that one could quote, but we might highlight Divino afflante Spiritu esp. 32-39, e.g. “Let the interpreter then, with all care and without neglecting any light derived from recent research, endeavour to determine the peculiar character and circumstances of the sacred writer, the age in which he lived, the sources written or oral to which he had recourse and the forms of expression he employed…There is no one but knows that the supreme rule of interpretation is to discover and define what the writer intended to express” (here HH quotes St Athnasius with approval on the dangers of missing the “real meaning of the author”). [33-4]

“[The Catholic commentator should] determine… to what extent the manner of expression or the literary mode adopted by the sacred writer may lead to a correct and genuine interpretation… Not infrequently…when some persons reproachfully charge the Sacred Writers with some historical error or inaccuracy in the recording of facts, on closer examination it turns out to be nothing else than those customary modes of expression and narration perculiar to the ancients.” [39]

I think that is consistent with what I said, although I’d also like to point out that I was not ascribing the part that you selected from my comment to either Pope.

Well, for example, saying that Nebuchadnezzar was king of the Assyrians right at the start, whereas in fact he was king of the Assyrians. Rather than denouncing this as ‘error’, or trying to find ingenious ways of re-explaining the history, it seems more probable that this is a signpost towards a non-historical reading of the text. I may have slightly overstated when I said that ‘most’ scholars think this… let’s rather say that I have read Catholic scholars who have made this argument (not at all the same I know).

This is not what I would describe as an ‘obvious intentional inaccuracy to let us know it is supposed to be fiction’. If I had to come up with 100 possible explanations, that would not even have a chance of making the list. The most obvious is in someone’s vernacular the Babylonians were call Assyrians. This is really no more complicated than Europeans who assume Canadians are from the U. S., or Americans who assume Austrians are German because they speak German, or (my favorite) the Pennsylvania ‘Dutch’ who are called that because someone heard the language was ‘Deutsch’ and got it mixed up!

 

[grace_singh]

yet the Scripture records a literal, historical event which wiped out not only humans but all creatures not on the ark. the Bible also records that “all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered” (Genesis 7:19), meaning that every mountain on the earth was covered with water. this, and other verses, point to a global flood, not a local one, which could not have killed every creature on the earth which had breath in it.

i am surprised that the Catholic Church accepts an allegorical reading of this narrative, especially as one of Noah’s sons is mentioned in the geneology of Christ (Luke 3:36).

 

[JP_Marat]

yet the Scripture records a literal, historical event which wiped out not only humans but all creatures not on the ark. the Bible also records that “all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered” (Genesis 7:19), meaning that every mountain on the earth was covered with water. this, and other verses, point to a global flood, not a local one, which could not have killed every creature on the earth which had breath in it.

i am surprised that the Catholic Church accepts an allegorical reading of this narrative, especially as one of Noah’s sons is mentioned in the geneology of Christ (Luke 3:36).

RESPONSE

Perhaps that is only allegorical too.

 

[grace_singh]

RESPONSE

Perhaps that is only allegorical too.

well yeah, i saw that and thought “well what now, is Christ an allegory?”

there is a terrible and tragic danger in seeing the Scriptures as “allegory” or “metaphore”. one can of course read the Scriptures this way, but they are written and progress in narrative in such as a way as to warrant a literal reading- Bible as history. including the miraculous and “impossible”, for nothing is impossible with God. (Matthew 19:26)

 

[juliamajor]

This is not what I would describe as an ‘obvious intentional inaccuracy to let us know it is supposed to be fiction’. If I had to come up with 100 possible explanations, that would not even have a chance of making the list. The most obvious is in someone’s vernacular the Babylonians were call Assyrians. This is really no more complicated than Europeans who assume Canadians are from the U. S., or Americans who assume Austrians are German because they speak German, or (my favorite) the Pennsylvania ‘Dutch’ who are called that because someone heard the language was ‘Deutsch’ and got it mixed up!

Israelites were not stupid- they knew and know their history.They Know that the Assyrians took their people away, the lost ten tribes of Israel over 200 yrs before the Babylonian Exile.They would know the names of the overlords who threatened them and the Kings who meant to destroy Judah.Nothing requires you to believe it’s fiction but nothing requires me to believe it isn’t.The Vactican intro to Tobit ,Judith and Jonah put in the novel arena. Last time I looked Novels were fiction…Study of the stories , great pious writing though it is,will show you that it is fiction and was meant to be fiction. There were many pious novels in this time period as their were many apovcalyptic writings. Both were created to lift the people up and assure them of the loving -kindness(hesed) of their God and the truth that no matter how bleak the here and now is the future is always in God’s hands-God will protect His people and right their wrongs using the most unexpected of vessels to accomplish His will.

 

[grace_singh]

…The Vactican intro to Tobit ,Judith and Jonah put in the novel arena. Last time I looked Novels were fiction…

wait, do you mean to say that The Vatican does not consider Jonah to be an historical (true) narrative?

what of Christ refering to Jonah and to his preaching at Ninevah in passages like Matthew 12:39-41?

 

[adriancombe]

Israelites were not stupid- they knew and know their history.They Know that the Assyrians took their people away, the lost ten tribes of Israel over 200 yrs before the Babylonian Exile.They would know the names of the overlords who threatened them and the Kings who meant to destroy Judah.Nothing requires you to believe it’s fiction but nothing requires me to believe it isn’t.The Vactican intro to Tobit ,Judith and Jonah put in the novel arena. Last time I looked Novels were fiction…Study of the stories , great pious writing though it is,will show you that it is fiction and was meant to be fiction. There were many pious novels in this time period as their were many apovcalyptic writings. Both were created to lift the people up and assure them of the loving -kindness(hesed) of their God and the truth that no matter how bleak the here and now is the future is always in God’s hands-God will protect His people and right their wrongs using the most unexpected of vessels to accomplish His will.

Some novels are based on history, actually.
And I’m still waiting for that URL. Thanks.

 

[adriancombe]

Israelites were not stupid- they knew and know their history.They Know that the Assyrians took their people away, the lost ten tribes of Israel over 200 yrs before the Babylonian Exile.They would know the names of the overlords who threatened them and the Kings who meant to destroy Judah.Nothing requires you to believe it’s fiction but nothing requires me to believe it isn’t.The Vactican intro to Tobit ,Judith and Jonah put in the novel arena. Last time I looked Novels were fiction…Study of the stories , great pious writing though it is,will show you that it is fiction and was meant to be fiction. There were many pious novels in this time period as their were many apovcalyptic writings. Both were created to lift the people up and assure them of the loving -kindness(hesed) of their God and the truth that no matter how bleak the here and now is the future is always in God’s hands-God will protect His people and right their wrongs using the most unexpected of vessels to accomplish His will.

I didn’t say they were stupid. I said it could be vernacular. The Pennsylvania Dutch are still called that. Doesn’t mean the whole country is stupid. It means that words have a way of sneaking up on us and getting used. And we don’t always know what folks will think reading our stuff 2000 years later, stuff we never could have come up with.

 

[Tim2358]

With the sin-disintegration of a design plan for Man, began the process of allowing a single strain of “good hope” (Noah) human nature grain or lineage, to pass through into a new phase of life. Both truth evolving and knowlege gathering, this transition will lead to the next “God moment” event (the Incarnation). A growth evolving process, the designer is seen pruning, cutting off and grooming…the " Human Tree to New Life"

Peace

 

[twinc]

We cannot choose to make God a liar and opt to accept Noah"s flood as local and not global.It seems that those who do not accept the six days of creation as six literal 24hr days also do not accept the flood as global but only local. iF THE SIX DAYS OF CREATION ARE ACCEPTED AS THOUSANDS OF YEARS,then the 40days of non stop rain would be 40 thousands years,that would only result in a local flood,notwithstanding that water finds its own level,this is of course nonsense - twinc

 

[twinc]

We cannot choose to make God a liar and opt to accept Noah"s flood as local and not global.It seems that those who do not accept the six days of creation as six literal 24hr days also do not accept the flood as global but only local. iF THE SIX DAYS OF CREATION ARE ACCEPTED AS THOUSANDS OF YEARS,then the 40days of non stop rain would be 40 thousands years,that would only result in a local flood,notwithstanding that water finds its own level,this is of course nonsense - twinc

 

[twinc]

Hi, Ms juliamajor -

Oh, my eyes and heart skipped merrily along during most of your post. Until your last two word sentence. My happy for you ended, there.

Ahhh, juliamajor…oh, well…let us agree to disagree and I will pray for you and for those you mis-teach.

here we may well ask which is the greater impossibility, Jonah and the whale or a dead man coming to life again,or for the blind from birth to see or the lame to walk etc - twinc

 

[juliamajor]

Some novels are based on history, actually.
And I’m still waiting for that URL. Thanks.

Post #96 diggerdomer gives url. Yes, a real incident might be the root of an historical novel- but it’s still fiction. Just like the Epic of Gilgamesh is based on a real king.
l

 

[AthanasiusOx]

here we may well ask which is the greater impossibility, Jonah and the whale or a dead man coming to life again,or for the blind from birth to see or the lame to walk etc - twinc

With the greatest respect, this point is fallacious. It is not a matter of what is or is not possible, I would hope all Christians would agree that all things are possible with God. The point is what we are intended to take from the story.

I have no particular take on whether many events of the OT actually happened - as I’ve said before, I think our default position should be to assume that they did - but if we fixate on this question then we may miss what is more important.

In the case of Jonah, the narrative is punctuated with considerable humour: the whole thing is constructed more like a sit-com than historical narrative. I think that may be relevant to our reading.