Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

[donsnow]

Now, we’re discussing the OP .

These are all really good posts.

 

[SHW]

So how did we get to having more than 50,000 animals now?

Did that number include species that are now extinct (dinosaurs, etc.)?

Different scholars come up with different numbers. Only God knows for sure. Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book,The Genesis Flood, state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. They also say that the ark had room for 50,000 animals.

No, it did not include dinosaurs since they were extinct before Noah built his ark. There are many animal species that are extinct now such as the Red-bellied Gracile Opossum which was last seen in 1962. But, we still have opossum species on earth right now so this genus was represented on the ark.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Different scholars come up with different numbers. Only God knows for sure. Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book,The Genesis Flood, state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. They also say that the ark had room for 50,000 animals.

No, it did not include dinosaurs since they were extinct before Noah built his ark. There are many animal species that are extinct now such as the Red-bellied Gracile Opossum which was last seen in 1962. But, we still have opossum species on earth right now so this genus was represented on the ark.

These types of claims are found in the works of creationists and fundamentalist Protestants. Catholic scholars generally do not regard the ark as having contained every species, nor even every ‘genus’ of animal. The size of the ark specified in the Bible would not hold 35,000 animal types, with two pairs of each clearn type, and seven pairs of each unclean type. Neither would an ark of that size hold the weight of that many animals.

There is not enough water on earth to cover all the land to the depth specified in Genesis. And there is no historical evidence that all human persons except for 8 were wiped out at such a recent time. This set of claims is contrary to reason.

A faithful and reasonable approach is to consider that the animals on the ark were merely representative of all animal life. There would be no need to literally include every animal species. The extent of the destruction is also a figure, so there is no need to conclude that every animal or every human was killed that was not on the ark. There was a great flood and wide destruction, but the ark of Noah was used by God as a figure for salvation from sin, not as the literal means to save humans and animals from a literal extinction.

 

[Steve40]

Not everything modern is a heresy as not everything in the past was pristine.Scripture scholarship has grown.The church has utilized those biblical scholars and has trained them.If you read Divino Spiritu Afflante Pius XII has a very positive twist on biblical scholarship.In the fifty years prior to the encyclical much had been learned in archaeology,philology -knowledge that had not be available in the past.
The Libraries at Mari and Ebla gave the biblical scholars much to study-much to ponder.The Church has always had scholars biblical and otherwise.We have one now in Benedict.

I think more has been unlearned than has been learned over the past century. My problem is that from the top on down we lack a sound criteria for what constitutes poof before the Church or some one in the Church says you don’t have to believe this or that.

Modern so called “Scholars” no longer hold to the criteria layed down by Pope Leo XIII in his Encyclical on the study of Sacred Scripture, But you are correct St. Peter was saying just as the global flood caught them by surprise many in the end will be caught by surprise. His point about those who are caught by surprise in the end denying a global flood ever took place is true today as he said it would be.

 

[SHW]

Time of Noah, the giants, and the ark:

From the writings of Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich (The Life of Jesus Christ and Biblical Revelations, Volume One)

…Of Cain himself, I have never seen anything more that was sinful. His punishment appeared to consist in hard, but fruitless labor. Nothing in which he was personally engaged succeeded. I saw that he was mocked and reviled by his children and grandchildren, treated badly in every way. And yet they followed him as their leader, though as one accursed. I saw that Cain was severely punished, but not damned.

One of Cain’s descendants was Tubalcain, the originator of numerous arts, and the father of the giants. I have frequently seen that, when the angels fell, a certain number had a moment of repentance and did not in consequence fall as low as the others. Later on these fallen spirits took up their abode on a high, desolate, and wholly inaccessible mountain whose site at the time of the Deluge became a sea, the Black Sea, I think.

They were permitted to exercise their evil influence upon men in proportion as the latter strayed further from God. After the Deluge they disappeared from that region, and were confined to the air. They will not be cast into hell before the last day.
**
I saw Cain’s descendants becoming more and more godless and sensual.** They settled further and further up that mountain-ridge where were the fallen spirits. Those spirits took possession of many of the women, ruled them completely, and taught them all sorts of seductive arts. Their children were very large.

They possessed a quickness, an aptitude for every thing, and they gave themselves up entirely to the wicked spirits as their instruments. And so arose on this mountain and spread far around, a wicked race which by violence and seduction sought to entangle Seth’s posterity likewise in their own corrupt ways. Then God declared to Noe His intention to send the Deluge. During the building of the ark, Noe had to suffer terribly from those people.

I have seen many things connected with the race of giants.. They could with ease carry enormous stones high up the mountain, they could accomplish the most stupendous feats. They could walk straight up trees and walls just as I have seen others possessed by the devil doing. They could effect the most wonderful things, they could do whatever they wished; but all was pure jugglery and delusion due to the agency of the demon. It is for that reason that I have such horror of every species of jugglery and fortune-telling.

These people could form all kinds of images out of stone and metal; but of the knowledge of God they had no longer a trace, they sought their gods in the creatures around them. I have seen them scratch up a stone, form it into an extravagant image, and then adore it. They worshiped also a frightful animal and all kinds of ignoble things. They knew all things, they could see all things, they were skilled in the preparing of poisons, they practiced sorcery and every species of wickedness. The women invented music. I saw them going around among the better tribes trying to seduce them to their own abominations.

They had no dwelling-houses, no cities, but they raised massive round towers of shining stone. Under those towers were little structures leading into great caverns wherein they carried on their horrible wickedness. From the roofs of these structures, the surrounding country could be seen, and by mounting up into the towers and looking through tubes, one could see far into the distance.

But it was not like looking through tubes made to bring distant objects into view. The power of the tubes to which I here allude, was effected by satanic agency. They that looked through them, could see where the other tribes were settled. Then they marched against them, overcame them, and lawlessly carried all before them. That same spirit of lawlessness they exercised everywhere. I saw them sacrificing children by burying them alive in the earth. God overthrew that mountain at the time of the Deluge.

I saw Noe, a simple-hearted old man, clothed in a long white garment. He was walking about in an orchard and pruning the trees with a crooked bone knife. A cloud hovered over him and in it was a human Figure. Noe fell on his knees. I saw that he was, then and there, interiorly instructed upon God’s design to destroy mankind, and he was commanded to build an ark. I saw that Noe grew sad at the announcement, and that he prayed for the punishment to be averted. He did not begin the work at once.

Again the Lord appeared to him, twice in succession, commanding him to begin the building, otherwise he should perish with the rest of mankind. At last, I saw Noe removing with all his family to the country in which Zoroaster, the Shining Star, subsequently dwelt. Noe settled in a high, woody, solitary region where he and his numerous followers lived under tents. Here he raised an altar and offered sacrifice to the Lord. Neither Noe nor any of his family built permanent houses, because they put faith in the prophecy of the Deluge. But the godless nations around laid massive foundations, marked off courts, and erected all kinds of buildings designed to resist the inroads of time and the attacks of an enemy.

There were frightful deeds upon the earth in those days. Men delivered’ themselves up to all kinds of wickedness, even the most unnatural. They plundered one another and carried off whatever suited them best, they laid waste homes and fields, they kidnapped women and maidens. In proportion to their increase in numbers, was the wickedness of Noe’s posterity.

to be concluded…

 

[SHW]

Conclusion:

They even robbed and insulted Noe himself. They had not fallen into this state of base degradation from want of civilization. They were not wild and barbarous, they lived commodiously and had well-ordered households; but they were deeply imbued with wickedness. They practiced the most shameful idolatry, every one making his own god of whatever pleased him best. By diabolical arts, they sought to seduce Noe’s immediate family. Mosoch, the son of Japhet and grandson of Noe, was thus corrupted after he had, while working in the field taken from them a poisonous beverage which intoxicated him.

It was not wine, but the juice of a plant which they were accustomed to drink in small quantities during their work, and whose leaves and fruit they chewed. Mosoch became the father of a son, who was named Hom……From: jesus-passion.com/030_063.pdf

The race of giants are Cain’s offspring according to Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich.

 

[diggerdomer]

I believe that St. Peter did write 2 Peter and Catholics can not just throw out his words because some “Scripture scholor” or some one posting in a forum says they are not his words.

Also, 2 Peter 3 is in the cannon of Sacred Scripture and if you hold the belief that there was not a World Wide Flood, Sacred Scripture and St. Peter is calling you a “decietful scoffer” and “ignorant”. These are strong words and Catholics can not take them lightly and just disregard them.

It’s fine to believe Peter wrote it, or not, for Catholics. I hope you weren’t implying that I was throwing out the words? Or disregarding? I wasn’t. Whether Peter wrote it or not (again, Catholics are free to believe either) it is inspired, true, and part of the New Testament canon. Which of course, as a Catholic, I accept.

You might be calling me or someone a “deceitful scoffer” but so far the Bible and St. Peter have not. But I’ll keep listening.

 

[diggerdomer]

It is factually false to say that most Catholic Scripture scholars believe 2 Peter was the last book written. Opinions vary widely among scholars as to the dating and chronological order of the books of the NT.

The intro to the NAB (which the Church of course has given approval to publishing) seems to agree with my claim. You can read it here: usccb.org/nab/bible/2peter/intro.htm. And, you’re right, opinions vary. Doesn’t matter to me personally whether one believes it was written by Peter or not. Either way is acceptable for Catholic faith, as the Church teaches. I’m fine with Catholics believing a literal deluge/flood, or not.

The Church teaches in inerrancy of Scripture.

Where?

We need not believe that every person on earth, other than in the ark, was killed. The fact that many were killed and that all on the ark were saved is literal. The extent of the killing was figurative, indicating the very many who lose salvation by not entering the Church.

Really? But in Genesis God said He would destroy all mortal life. See Gen 6:7-13 ff. Are you saying we can read part of that figuratively? If so, then we agree.

 

[diggerdomer]

Different scholars come up with different numbers. Only God knows for sure. Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book,The Genesis Flood, state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. They also say that the ark had room for 50,000 animals.

No, it did not include dinosaurs since they were extinct before Noah built his ark. There are many animal species that are extinct now such as the Red-bellied Gracile Opossum which was last seen in 1962. But, we still have opossum species on earth right now so this genus was represented on the ark.

Where does the Bible tell us that dinosaurs were extinct before the ark?

 

[SHW]

It doesn’t. Evolution does.

 

[SHW]

Where does the Bible tell us that dinosaurs were extinct before the ark?

It doesn’t. Evolution does. They became extinct about 65 million years ago.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080424140400.htm

 

[diggerdomer]

It doesn’t. Evolution does.

That’s what I thought. Thanks. But the Bible (if we have to interpret everything strictly in a literal sense) doesn’t seem to allow time for the millions of years that evolutionists’ suggest are necessary for dinosaurs, extinction, the development of homo sapiens, etc.

So if we don’t have to take the historical times narrated in these early chapters of Genesis literally, why do we need to take the Deluge literally?

 

[SHW]

That’s what I thought. Thanks. But the Bible (if we have to interpret everything strictly in a literal sense) doesn’t seem to allow time for the millions of years that evolutionists’ suggest are necessary for dinosaurs, extinction, the development of homo sapiens, etc.

So if we don’t have to take the historical times narrated in the Bible literally, why do we need to take the Deluge literally?

Because it happened.

The Scriptures in the Bible actually allow for both evolution (which happens in the first six days which were defined by the boundaries “evening and morning,” an abstract term in Genesis, and which are made up of an immense number of years (billions) and they also allow for the dating from the time of Adam’s ensoulment and this event starts the human clock which consists to date of approx. 6000 years.

It all starts from Rosh Hashana.

How long ago did the “beginning” occur? Was it, as the Bible might imply, 5700-plus years, or was it the 15 billions of years that’s accepted by the scientific community?

The first thing we have to understand is the origin of the Biblical calendar. The Jewish year is figured by adding up the generations since Adam. Additionally, there are six days leading up to the creation to Adam. These six days are significant as well.

Now where do we make the zero point? On Rosh Hashana, the Jewish New Year, upon blowing the shofar, the following sentence is said: “Hayom Harat Olam – today is the birthday of the world.”

This verse might imply that Rosh Hashana commemorates the creation of the universe. But it doesn’t. Rosh Hashana commemorate the creation of the Neshama, the soul of human life. We start counting our 5700-plus years from the creation of the soul of Adam.

We have a clock that begins with Adam, and the six days are separate from this clock.

The Bible has two clocks.

That might seem like a modern rationalization, if it were not for the fact that Talmudic commentaries 1500 years ago, brings this information. In the Midrash (Vayikra Rabba 29:1), an expansion of the Talmud, all the Sages agree that Rosh Hashana commemorates the soul of Adam, and that the Six Days of Genesis are separate.

Why were the Six Days taken out of the calendar? Because time is described differently in those Six Days of Genesis. “There was evening and morning” is an exotic, bizarre, unusual way of describing time.

Once you come from Adam, the flow of time is totally in human terms. Adam and Eve live 130 years before having children! Seth lives 105 years before having children, etc. From Adam forward, the flow of time is totally human in concept. But prior to that time, it’s an abstract concept: “Evening and morning.” It’s as if you’re looking down on events from a viewpoint that is not intimately related to them. Read more at: aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

 

[diggerdomer]

Because it happened.

The Scriptures in the Bible actually allow for both evolution (which happens in the first six days which were defined by the boundaries “evening and morning,” an abstract term in Genesis, and which are made up of an immense number of years (billions) and they also allow for the dating from the time of Adam’s ensoulment and this event starts the human clock which consists to date of approx. 6000 years.

Oh, ok, so we’re free to interpret “day” as something not literal (i.e. not approximately 24 hours)?

 

[juliamajor]

I think more has been unlearned than has been learned over the past century. My problem is that from the top on down we lack a sound criteria for what constitutes poof before the Church or some one in the Church says you don’t have to believe this or that.

Modern so called “Scholars” no longer hold to the criteria layed down by Pope Leo XIII in his Encyclical on the study of Sacred Scripture, But you are correct St. Peter was saying just as the global flood caught them by surprise many in the end will be caught by surprise. His point about those who are caught by surprise in the end denying a global flood ever took place is truPe today as he said it would be.

Pope leo encyclical was not the last one on the matter. Pius xii.'s DSA was after.You can not say one supercedes the other.PiusXII wasthe “latest news”.It clarifies and expands on the previous.Knowledge that was not available fifty years before was given a hearing by Pius XII.and found valuable by him.
Fundamentalism is not a Catholic trait- the Bible deserves to be discussed,pondered over, thought about and yes argued about. That’s what keeps it relevant.We have a triune way to look at scripture . being Fundmentally inclined is a betrayal of that system of biblical study that has seen the church through over 2000 yrs.

 

[donsnow]

Pope leo encyclical was not the last one on the matter. Pius xii.'s DSA was after.You can not say one supercedes the other.PiusXII wasthe “latest news”.It clarifies and expands on the previous.Knowledge that was not available fifty years before was given a hearing by Pius XII.and found valuable by him.
Fundamentalism is not a Catholic trait- the Bible deserves to be discussed,pondered over, thought about and yes argued about. That’s what keeps it relevant.We have a triune way to look at scripture . being Fundmentally inclined is a betrayal of that system of biblical study that has seen the church through over 2000 yrs.

Hi, Julia,

I remember the triune application given in the CCC. Since it starts with a ‘literal’ interpretation, I don’t see how fundalmentalism betrays the system. Really.

 

[SHW]

Oh, ok, so we’re free to interpret “day” as something not literal (i.e. not approximately 24 hours)?

You are correct. The first six days need not be 24 hours.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Until Adam was created, time was not recorded in 24 hours per day allotments. The six “days” of creation could actually encompass what we measure today to be about 16 billion years. So, it is perfectly reasonable for evolution to have taken place before Adam was created. However, after Adam was created (received ensoulment), time has since been recorded in 24 hour days. This is why the Jews say that their history began about 6000 years ago when Adam received his soul.

Also, God is outside of time since He resides in eternity. So He sees everything in the eternal present.

 

[CWBetts]

You are correct. The first six days need not be 24 hours.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Until Adam was created, time was not recorded in 24 hours per day allotments. The six “days” of creation could actually encompass what we measure today to be about 16 billion years. So, it is perfectly reasonable for evolution to have taken place before Adam was created. However, after Adam was created (received ensoulment), time has since been recorded in 24 hour days. This is why the Jews say that their history began about 6000 years ago when Adam received his soul.

Also, God is outside of time since He resides in eternity. So He sees everything in the eternal present.

Furthermore, the “days” in Genesis 1 are obviously allegorical, which do not match up to the order of scientific evolution. On days 1-2 God created habitats (Heavens, sea/sky, and land) and days 4-6 He populated the habitats in the same order (4: sun/moon/stars, day 5: birds/fish/whales, day 6: plants/animals/humans) and day seven was clearly intended for liturgy all along. Given this, it is difficult to accept the actual creation account as literal, although Adam and Eve were a historical couple

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

What about the story of Gilgamesh? I was actually taught, in a secular state college, no less, that the great flood was probably true, since 2 ancient stories, Gilgamesh, and the Bible tell of the flood and Noah…as 2 totally different forms of historical evidence.

 

[CWBetts]

What about the story of Gilgamesh? I was actually taught, in a secular state college, no less, that the great flood was probably true, since 2 ancient stories, Gilgamesh, and the Bible tell of the flood and Noah…as 2 totally different forms of historical evidence.

There are more than just those two. The Aztecs and Mayans had a similar story as well