Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

[itinerant1]

I’m not a gambler, but I have my ear to the theological ground, and I can read handwriting on the walls (to mix metaphors). I attended a jam-packed Anglican advent service presided over by a woman priest this evening. It felt quite natural to hear hear leading the congregation.

Ordination of women is coming, very slowly of course and probably not wqithin my lifetime, but it will happen as surely as the sun will rise. When it happens, there may well be a split between progressives and traditionalists within the Church.

StAnastasia

At this point, I cannot predict a future schism within the Catholic Church. Though it is obvious that the Church has a current schism in which the schismatics, instead of leaving and forming their own church, have stayed. A most peculiar situation.

I know the Church’s thinking in regard to ordination of women, and the theological tradition behind it based on the example of Christ and the Apostles. The Roman Catholic Church is certain that it cannot ordain women, the views of dissenting priests and theologians notwithstanding. Whatever Anglicans, or any other non-Catholic churches chooses to do will not in the least have any effect on Church teaching in this matter.

Whether woman’s’ ordination is an issue “socially” significant enough to create a schism within the Catholic Church in the future, I do not know for sure, but I tend to doubt it. I do know that even the threat of schism or a true schism cannot and will not change the official Church position.

The criticism that this position of women in the priesthood is sexism on the part of the Church is lame. It is ultimately a matter of unchangeable theological tradition, regardless of any individuals’ sexism.

I personally love it when more women have active roles in the Church; and many that do, of whom I am friends with, would not even entertain the idea of women priests. Yet, others, clearly have their women priests and other fantasies. But the reality is that those fantasies will never become a reality within the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps some of these hard core types will defect to the Anglican or some other church. Sad!

 

[twinc]

Like I said before (in the first pages of this thread) - IF there was a true worldwide flood and all like save the life of Noah and those in the ark survived. Just what did the carnivores eat when released from the ark. Those that depended upon eating insects (you know the complete food chain that a worldwide flood would have destroyed) where did they find their food. If the flood was worldwide. In the very short geological time from the flood to now how could the very unique animal kingdom of Africa compared to South America compared to Australia have developed. If all these various life forms were NOT in the ark then with such a very short geological time frame to work with there should be all manner of fossils to demonstrate the rapid change in these creatures. Trace the llama to South America. Trace the kangaroo to Australia. Trace the panda to China. If there was a worldwide flood how on earth did penguins living in the frigid regions of the Arctic appear - especially if Noah didn’t have a few of them with him on the ark. So, I’m turning your premise on its head – if Noah didn’t bring all these creatures with his on the ark how do all these animal kingdoms in all the various ecosystems of the various continents appear and develop in a short 4-5000 years where we have no accounting of these very rapid changes in the fossil record. IF there were a worldwide flood - we would NEED another Gen 1 and another recreation of the earth – yet this does not exist in scripture OR the geological record.

MonFrere

you seem to easily and rapidly go from one distortion and twist into another - to say that Noah could not or did not does mean that suitable animals were not on the Ark.This is clearly explained in the Bible for those who are receptive to clear explanations - fossils are not a natural development but the result of a sudden and catastropic burial etc - twinc

 

[CWBetts]

I’m not a gambler, but I have my ear to the theological ground, and I can read handwriting on the walls (to mix metaphors). I attended a jam-packed Anglican advent service presided over by a woman priest this evening. It felt quite natural to hear hear leading the congregation.

Ordination of women is coming, very slowly of course and probably not wqithin my lifetime, but it will happen as surely as the sun will rise. When it happens, there may well be a split between progressives and traditionalists within the Church.

StAnastasia

It will not happen. This would require the changing of the nature of a Sacrament. No matter how many people want it to happen, It CAN NOT HAPPEN. Take your heterodox ideas elsewhere. If a split happens it will be disaffected liberals abandoning the Church founded by Jesus Christ because of their own failure to submit to proper authority.

 

[twinc]

It seems you are a bit perplexed but the Church accepts that true science and scriptures agree. So where they may appear to disagree then the science is false and must be rejected and scripture accepted as true - twinc

 

[twinc]

The earth is on a tilt so water was easily sploshed and splashed all over it and there is even now enough water around to cause a second global flood,which will not happen we have been reassured - so who is creating all these problems as if nothing better to be at - twinc

we are told clearly at 2Peter 3:5-7 and now of course widely accepted that the one large fairly level landmass was flooded - the break up of the land mass into land masses surrounded by water is and was as a result of the global flood as was the ice age - twinc

 

[buffalo]

I take it you’re not a betting person. My bet is that if the Church wants to survive with any more than a small remnant, it will see the handwriting on the wall about the need to address the continuing priest shortage. Before long it will relax the discipline of the celibacy requirement; it has already given over at least in terms of welcoming married priests from other denominations. When numerous congregations had have long experience with married priests, it will not be the scary proposition it seems to be at first.

My bet is also that after another pope or two, the prohibition on ordaining women to the priesthood will crumble. If it doesn’t, we’ll end up with a dwindling church. Maybe that’s good; maybe it’s not.

StAnastasia

The worldwide Roman Church has a priest shortage? Got stats? For every man accepted to seminary six are turned away. Dioceses that have perpetual adoration in the US are doing way better than those that don’t. Curious don’t you think?

 

[CWBetts]

I take it you’re not a betting person. My bet is that if the Church wants to survive with any more than a small remnant, it will see the handwriting on the wall about the need to address the continuing priest shortage. Before long it will relax the discipline of the celibacy requirement; it has already given over at least in terms of welcoming married priests from other denominations. When numerous congregations had have long experience with married priests, it will not be the scary proposition it seems to be at first.

My bet is also that after another pope or two, the prohibition on ordaining women to the priesthood will crumble. If it doesn’t, we’ll end up with a dwindling church. Maybe that’s good; maybe it’s not.

StAnastasia

Celibacy has nothing to do with the shortage of vocations to the priesthood. If this were the case, then Protestant denominations would not be experiencing the same kind of difficulties. The shortage has more to do with the dedication to setr oneself to a higher standard than any specific discipline. What is your agenda here?

 

[steve711]

I love this thread as it has so many opinions and ideas. I just find it hard to believe that some think of the Bible (Old Testament) as a history book, when it is a book of Hebrew Theology and a darn good one at that. I read it and look for Gods messages not history.

I am an engineer/scientist so I also have a great deal of faith in science and also a lot of skepticism, especially when all the facts are not known or are estimated. I believe the earth is very old and has had many species of animals, but still do not believe that man has evolved from single cell animals or the great apes. I also believe that God in his infinite wisdom has always had a plan for us, that we can not see being only humans.

Go with Gods Grace!

 

[buffalo]

Celibacy has nothing to do with the shortage of vocations to the priesthood. If this were the case, then Protestant denominations would not be experiencing the same kind of difficulties. The shortage has more to do with the dedication to setr oneself to a higher standard than any specific discipline. What is your agenda here?

She wishes to be a Priest.

 

[buffalo]

I love this thread as it has so many opinions and ideas. I just find it hard to believe that some think of the Bible (Old Testament) as a history book, when it is a book of Hebrew Theology and a darn good one at that. I read it and look for Gods messages not history.

I am an engineer/scientist so I also have a great deal of faith in science and also a lot of skepticism, especially when all the facts are not known or are estimated. I believe the earth is very old and has had many species of animals, but still do not believe that man has evolved from single cell animals or the great apes. I also believe that God in his infinite wisdom has always had a plan for us, that we can not see being only humans.

Go with Gods Grace!

I have an exercise. Can anyone write a novel as long as the OT and completely exclude history or scientific truths? None, not one bit! Let’s go for it.

 

[CWBetts]

She wishes to be a Priest.

Like my own priest has said, if, hypothetically, the CHurch would allow the ordination of women, the first one million applicants should be thrown out, because they will be seeking it for the wrong reasons. Maybe it should be brought up that the priesthood is not about desire, but a calling.

 

[buffalo]

Like my own priest has said, if, hypothetically, the CHurch would allow the ordination of women, the first one million applicants should be thrown out, because they will be seeking it for the wrong reasons. Maybe it should be brought up that the priesthood is not about desire, but a calling.

Very telling indeed.

 

[donsnow]

Does this mean we don’t get to argue any more?

Peace,

Thomas

Hi, Thomas -

Gee…um…let me see…I really like and agree with several of your posts…OTOH, there’s times you come up with something…

Nah, there’ll be times when you come up with something …then we’ll about have to argue.

Peace be with you,
Don

 

[MonFrere]

Those are common reasons that many question the traditional attribution of Moses as the (only) author of the Pentateuch. It was simply traditional to ascribe authorship to Moses among Christians and Jews. I personally don’t think he wrote it.

I’ve read that Ezra may have edited the books; yet Moses still was their basic author.

MonFrere

 

[buffalo]

I’ve read that Ezra may have edited the books; yet Moses still was their basic author.

MonFrere

The Toledoths of Genesis show he was the compiler.

 

[CWBetts]

Is there even any evidence that Moses wrote the pentateuch? I mean he DIES before it ends. Have you ever read an autobiography where the guy writing it dies before the end?

And if there was only one author, how do you account for the two creation stories?

1. They could have been dictated to a scribe, who then put in the account of Moses’s death.
2. God, upon occasion, does reveal future events to his prophets. Just sayin.

 

[buffalo]

1. They could have been dictated to a scribe, who then put in the account of Moses’s death.
2. God, upon occasion, does reveal future events to his prophets. Just sayin.

St Faustina writes in her diary about her death.

 

[donsnow]

I take it you’re not a betting person. My bet is that if the Church wants to survive with any more than a small remnant, it will see the handwriting on the wall about the need to address the continuing priest shortage. Before long it will relax the discipline of the celibacy requirement; it has already given over at least in terms of welcoming married priests from other denominations. When numerous congregations had have long experience with married priests, it will not be the scary proposition it seems to be at first.

My bet is also that after another pope or two, the prohibition on ordaining women to the priesthood will crumble. If it doesn’t, we’ll end up with a dwindling church. Maybe that’s good; maybe it’s not.

StAnastasia

Hi, StAnastasia -

Frankly, I think we’ll be better off with the dwindling but Spirit empowered Church, than a massive ‘feel good’ caricature of Christ’s Church.

Don

 

[twinc]

It will not happen. This would require the changing of the nature of a Sacrament. No matter how many people want it to happen, It CAN NOT HAPPEN. Take your heterodox ideas elsewhere. If a split happens it will be disaffected liberals abandoning the Church founded by Jesus Christ because of their own failure to submit to proper authority.

indeed it cannot,should not and will not happen and should not be happening in an Christian as clearly forbidden by scriptures and by God in his creation of woman with a double dose of xx female chromosomes to only represent woman kind and man with xy chromosomes to represent humankind[man and woman] - twinc

 

[MonFrere]

Celibacy has nothing to do with the shortage of vocations to the priesthood. If this were the case, then Protestant denominations would not be experiencing the same kind of difficulties. The shortage has more to do with the dedication to set oneself to a higher standard than any specific discipline. What is your agenda here?

I would add that celibacy is a gift. One cannot understand the gift fully unless one possesses the gift. People cannot understand people who can put aside the more common gift to desire marriage to live a life of celibacy.

(Mat 19:12) For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

For those who can understand this and are able to receive this gift, let him receive it.

Our society has such a laser focus on sex that it makes it difficult for people to reflect that they may have this gift. The climate of our nation with its materialism, relativism and the like is CRUSHING its religious spirit. In Catholic families this translates in a lack of preparation for our youth to see viability in religious life.

ONE SIGN of a viable religious life is eucharistic adoration and it is no wonder where this is practiced that there is an increase in vocations, so I agree with buffalo on this point.

To crassly say that the reason for the shortage of priests is their lack of ability to marry is IMO very shortsighted and doesn’t really address the issues where such localities have this problem. Africa is full of vocations – religious life is a very attractive and viable option there. Our (US) materialism and relativism is our curse and until we face it accept it and change it we are going to have shortages.

Priestly celibacy is the IDEAL. I think the Catholic Church should MOST STRONGLY hold onto its ideals.

MonFrere