Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

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I don’t think the Catechism uses nor Vatican II used “inerrant” – is that wrong?
I think it is the clear intention of the words and statements taken as a whole. Perhaps someone can translate this part of the CCC from the original language of composition. Maybe it’s the timidity of the translators to use such a definitive and strong word as inerrant.

MonFrere
 
I don’t think the Catechism uses nor Vatican II used “inerrant” – is that wrong?
Are you so arrogant to tell the Church what words it can use? Look at the meaning, and stop making excuses for dismissing Catholic teaching because you find it “inconvenient”! Dei Verbum. Providetessimus Deus, and Divino Espritu Afflante are more than clear. The cafeteria is closed!!!
 
Are you so arrogant to tell the Church what words it can use? Look at the meaning, and stop making excuses for dismissing Catholic teaching because you find it “inconvenient”! Dei Verbum. Providetessimus Deus, and Divino Espritu Afflante are more than clear. The cafeteria is closed!!!
THE FOLLOWING IS PURE SPECULATION BY ME, PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG DIGGERDOMER:

From his posts, it seems like he might think there is some sort of error (whether it be scientific or historical) in the Bible; therefore he doesn’t want the Church to teach that the Bible is infallible or inerrant in everything. It is only inerrant in the truth that it teaches…🤷

ONCE AGAIN THIS PURE SPECULATION BY ME.
 
Are you so arrogant to tell the Church what words it can use? Look at the meaning, and stop making excuses for dismissing Catholic teaching because you find it “inconvenient”! Dei Verbum. Providetessimus Deus, and Divino Espritu Afflante are more than clear. The cafeteria is closed!!!
THE FOLLOWING IS PURE SPECULATION BY ME, PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG DIGGERDOMER:

From his posts, it seems like he might think there is some sort of error (whether it be scientific or historical) in the Bible; therefore he doesn’t want the Church to teach that the Bible is infallible or inerrant in everything. It is only inerrant in the truth that it teaches…🤷

ONCE AGAIN THIS PURE SPECULATION BY ME.
 
From his posts, it seems like he might think there is some sort of error (whether it be scientific or historical) in the Bible; therefore he doesn’t want the Church to teach that the Bible is infallible or inerrant in everything. It is only inerrant in the truth that it teaches…
This isn’t only Digger’s Dilemma it has been the dilemma of each poster in the almost 900 post thread. Something has to give.

Is science wrong when it says the couldn’t be a worldwide flood?
Is the Bible wrong when it says there was a worldwide flood?

Is science wrong?
Is the bible wrong?

Does believing science mean one cannot any longer believe the bible?
Does believing the bible mean on cannot any longer believe in science?

Can both science and the bible be synthesized in such a way where both are true?

There has been all manner of ways to view this scientific and biblical information. But to do so requires a certain “wiggling” of the information, either scientific or biblical. Some posters have offered various paradigm shifting answers. My reading shows me an answer but not everyone can accept my answer. I cannot accept all answers of others because of my reasons.

How does one resolve this seeming difficulty? That the problem the posters in this thread have set out to answer.

MonFrere
 
This isn’t only Digger’s Dilemma it has been the dilemma of each poster in the almost 900 post thread. Something has to give.

Is science wrong when it says the couldn’t be a worldwide flood?
Is the Bible wrong when it says there was a worldwide flood?

Is science wrong?
Is the bible wrong?

Does believing science mean one cannot any longer believe the bible?
Does believing the bible mean on cannot any longer believe in science?

Can both science and the bible be synthesized in such a way where both are true?

There has been all manner of ways to view this scientific and biblical information. But to do so requires a certain “wiggling” of the information, either scientific or biblical. Some posters have offered various paradigm shifting answers. My reading shows me an answer but not everyone can accept my answer. I cannot accept all answers of others because of my reasons.

How does one resolve this seeming difficulty? That the problem the posters in this thread have set out to answer.

MonFrere
It’s no dilemma for me.

Maybe I’m too picky, but I think terms like “infallible” and “inerrant” have a long history, and they are not necessarily used today by the Church as some may have used or understood them in the past. They are not used (as far as I know) in the Catechism or teachings of Vatican II when referring to Scripture; so if that’s correct I think it’s best to use (and understand) the terms the Church uses.
 
It’s no dilemma for me.

Maybe I’m too picky, but I think terms like “infallible” and “inerrant” have a long history, and they are not necessarily used today by the Church as some may have used or understood them in the past. They are not used (as far as I know) in the Catechism or teachings of Vatican II when referring to Scripture; so if that’s correct I think it’s best to use (and understand) the terms the Church uses.
I think the controversy in the Christian community as a whole has been caused by what to do with those items that “seem” like errors. Some have “solved” that contradiction by saying the bible is only “without error” (inerrant) only in faith and morals - yet it may be in error in areas of science or statistics (e.g. contradictory numbers of casualties in battles). Some have gone to the point of saying the bible is a good book that teaches good things.

Personally, I think all these “contradictions” can be explained, and some fairly easily. I have no problem with saying the Bible is inerrant. (I also understand this to be the teaching of the Church TODAY as well as in the past). When applying this principle to things like the creation accounts or the account of the global flood I think this is a place where we need to understand the point of the original authors and what was really being “taught” as the original intent. Or, one could also ask, what is the Holy Spirit teaching us in this story? I think asking the RIGHT QUESTIONS still leads one to an inerrant bible. Asking the WRONG QUESTIONS (IMO asking questions as if the accounts are literal) leads one to make compromises somewhere and this leads some to compromise with the concept of the scriptures being inerrant and it leads others to ignore scientific findings and common scientific understandings as to the workings of nature.

MonFrere
 
It’s no dilemma for me.

Maybe I’m too picky, but I think terms like “infallible” and “inerrant” have a long history, and they are not necessarily used today by the Church as some may have used or understood them in the past. They are not used (as far as I know) in the Catechism or teachings of Vatican II when referring to Scripture; so if that’s correct I think it’s best to use (and understand) the terms the Church uses.
Just be honest. You believe that the Holy Spirit can inspire error. You cannot have it both ways. Either the Scriptures are free from error, or the Holy Spirit has inspired error. Which is it?
 
Just be honest. You believe that the Holy Spirit can inspire error. You cannot have it both ways. Either the Scriptures are free from error, or the Holy Spirit has inspired error. Which is it?
Or that the Bible is not inspired at all, or in some parts . . . which is just crazy :whacky:
 
Just be honest. You believe that the Holy Spirit can inspire error. You cannot have it both ways. Either the Scriptures are free from error, or the Holy Spirit has inspired error. Which is it?
It’s what the Church teaches. See the Catechism, specifically para 105-108.

I am being honest.

It’s not simply the either/or you posit. What do you mean by “Scriptures are free from error”? That the universe was created in 6 literal (24 hour) days? That Methusaleh lived 969 years? That the sun stood still? That King Herod killed all those infants? That Jonah spent three days in the belly of a whale (large fish) and lived? If you say the Catholic Church requires Catholics to believe those as literally true then I disagree.

The truths in Scripture, as the teaching of the Church says, are those truths God wanted preserved there that are necessary for salvation. This does not mean Scripture contains biological, geographical, astronomical (as Galileo noted), etc. truths.
 
It’s what the Church teaches. See the Catechism, specifically para 105-108.

I am being honest.

It’s not simply the either/or you posit. What do you mean by “Scriptures are free from error”? That the universe was created in 6 literal (24 hour) days? That Methusaleh lived 969 years? That the sun stood still? That King Herod killed all those infants? That Jonah spent three days in the belly of a whale (large fish) and lived? If you say the Catholic Church requires Catholics to believe those as literally true then I disagree.

The truths in Scripture, as the teaching of the Church says, are those truths God wanted preserved there that are necessary for salvation. This does not mean Scripture contains biological, geographical, astronomical (as Galileo noted), etc. truths.
This is a full account of what the Church teaches about the inerrancy of the Bible.
 
I don’t think the Catechism uses nor Vatican II used “inerrant” – is that wrong?
In that you are correct. Technically, we are all incorrect, as the Church issues documents in Latin, then translates them into other languages (of which English is only one).*

Even with words corresponding morphologically and etymologically there is not necessarily a one-to-one correspondence. * With those disclaimers out of the way…

Inerrantia (inerrancy) is used at least once that I can find, it is assumed/implied to be an accepted doctrine by the PBC statement of 18 June 1915. The Latin is here:*

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19150618_parusia-paolo_lt.html

An English translation can be found here:

catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/bible/pbc.htm

Here is an excerpt:

Concerning the Parousia or Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Epistles of the Apostle St Paul

June 18, 1915 (AAS 7 [1915] 357f; EB 432ff; Dz 2179ff)
I: In order to meet the difficulties occurring in the Epistles of St Paul and other Apostles in passages which treat of the “Parousia”, as it is called, or second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, is it allowed to a Catholic exegete to assert that, though the Apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost teach nothing erroneous, they none the less express their own human opinions which may rest on error or misconception?*
Answer In the negative.

II: In view of the correct concept of the apostolic office and the undoubted fidelity of St Paul to the teaching of the Master ; in view also of the Catholic doctrine concerning the inspiration and inerrancy of Holy Scripture according to which whatever a sacred Writer asserts, declares, suggests, should be held to be asserted, declared, suggested by the Holy Ghost and after a careful examination on their own merits of the passages in the Epistles of St Paul which are in complete harmony with our Lord’s own manner of speaking, should it be asserted that the Apostle Paul said nothing whatever in his writings which is not in complete harmony with that ignorance of the time of the Parousia which Christ himself proclaimed to belong to men?
Answer: In the affirmative.

III: After consideration of the Greek phrase hemeis hoi zontes hoi perileipomenoi; and after careful examination of the exposition of the Fathers, above all of St John Chrysostom, who was completely at home both in his native language and in the Pauline Epistles, is it lawful to reject as far-fetched and destitute of any solid foundation the interpretation traditional in the Catholic schools (and retained even by the Reformers of the sixteenth century) that explains the words of St Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, without in any way involving the assertion that the Parousia was so near that the Apostle counted himself and his readers among the faithful who will be left alive and go to meet Christ?*
Answer: In the negative.
  1. Examples. Without any intention of completeness or exhaustiveness, some examples of doctrines relative to the three paragraphs described above can be recalled.
I know the PBC statement might not be considered current by some; without ceding the validity of this train of thought, I note the content of this doctrine was confirmed by John Paul II in his “DOCTRINAL COMMENTARY ON THE CONCLUDING FORMULA OF THE PROFESSIO FIDEI” in 1998:

To the truths of the first paragraph belong the articles of faith of the Creed, the various Christological dogmas21 and Marian dogmas;22 the doctrine of the institution of the sacraments by Christ and their efficacy with regard to grace;23 the doctrine of the real and substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist24 and the sacrificial nature of the eucharistic celebration;25 the foundation of the Church by the will of Christ;26 the doctrine on the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff;27 the doctrine on the existence of original sin;28 the doctrine on the immortality of the spiritual soul and on the immediate recompense after death;29 the absence of error in the inspired sacred texts;30 the doctrine on the grave immorality of direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being.31

Here the late Holy Father placed the doctrine of inerrancy in the ‘de fide’ category.*
 
It’s what the Church teaches. See the Catechism, specifically para 105-108.

I am being honest.

It’s not simply the either/or you posit. What do you mean by “Scriptures are free from error”? That the universe was created in 6 literal (24 hour) days? That Methusaleh lived 969 years? That the sun stood still? That King Herod killed all those infants? That Jonah spent three days in the belly of a whale (large fish) and lived? If you say the Catholic Church requires Catholics to believe those as literally true then I disagree.

The truths in Scripture, as the teaching of the Church says, are those truths God wanted preserved there that are necessary for salvation. This does not mean Scripture contains biological, geographical, astronomical (as Galileo noted), etc. truths.
So you can pick and choose what is Holy Spirit inspired and what is not?? God can do anything, why do you not believe he could do the things in your post? Are you saying that you only believe Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, and Jesus’ resurrection because the Church tells you its true? I do not deny any of the Catholic Church’s claims, however I believe they have done their faithful a great disservice by not emphasizing Scripture more. I hear this type of thing alot from Catholics, and it is very sad indeed. That God loved us enough to give us the Scriptures to help guide us in our lives is beautiful. Many Catholics seem to mock others who emphasize Scripture, a “yeah its ok, but we have the CHURCH” attitude. I’m not Catholic but I can tell you this is not what Jesus had in mind when establishing the Church. He emphasized Scripture greatly, and relied very heavily on it for His teachings. Shouldn’t we follow his example?
 
Thanks. Still, I’ll stick with what the Magisterium teaches (as in the Catechism, Vatican II, etc.). Nice article, though.
This seems to assume that the article is not in conformity with the Magisterium . . . 🤷
 
So you can pick and choose what is Holy Spirit inspired and what is not?? God can do anything, why do you not believe he could do the things in your post? Are you saying that you only believe Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, and Jesus’ resurrection because the Church tells you its true? I do not deny any of the Catholic Church’s claims, however I believe they have done their faithful a great disservice by not emphasizing Scripture more. I hear this type of thing alot from Catholics, and it is very sad indeed. That God loved us enough to give us the Scriptures to help guide us in our lives is beautiful. Many Catholics seem to mock others who emphasize Scripture, a “yeah its ok, but we have the CHURCH” attitude. I’m not Catholic but I can tell you this is not what Jesus had in mind when establishing the Church. He emphasized Scripture greatly, and relied very heavily on it for His teachings. Shouldn’t we follow his example?
Oh please.

I am not picking and choosing anything. I never limited God. You seem to be picking and choosing. I believe everything the Catholic Church teaches, the Creed, Scripture, etc.

What’s your beef?
 
So you can pick and choose what is Holy Spirit inspired and what is not?? God can do anything, why do you not believe he could do the things in your post? Are you saying that you only believe Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, and Jesus’ resurrection because the Church tells you its true? I do not deny any of the Catholic Church’s claims, however I believe they have done their faithful a great disservice by not emphasizing Scripture more.
I agree with you here, but fortunately that is changing with Papal Encyclicals like Providentissimus Deus, and Divino Afflante Spiritu; and also Church declarations like Dei Verbum; and also the rise in fantastic Bible scholars such as Scott Hahn and all of the new Bible aids the Church has been given in recent times, we’re right back on track. 😃
I hear this type of thing alot from Catholics, and it is very sad indeed. That God loved us enough to give us the Scriptures to help guide us in our lives is beautiful. Many Catholics seem to mock others who emphasize Scripture, a “yeah its ok, but we have the CHURCH” attitude. I’m not Catholic but I can tell you this is not what Jesus had in mind when establishing the Church.
I agree that the Lord giving us the great gift that is the Scriptures is beautiful, but personally, I believe the establishment of the Church is even more beautiful, meaningful, and loving. And, even more beautiful, meaningful, and loving than His establishment of the Church, is His everlasting gift of the Eucharist; Jesus promised not to leave us orphans and He hasn’t, he is always present on earth through the Scriptures, His Church, and most noticeably in the Eucharist. I also believe that while the Scriptures do guide us and teach us about Christ, this is what He specifically started the Church for: to guide us and teach us [Mt 18:18; 28:19-20; Jn 21:15-17].
He emphasized Scripture greatly, and relied very heavily on it for His teachings. Shouldn’t we follow his example?
For the record, Jesus’ teachings do not stand or fall on whether or not they are in the OT Scriptures, they stand or fall on His authority as the Almighty God. In this sense we should follow His example by adhering to the one thing He gave His teaching authority to: His Church [Mt 16:18-19; 18:18; 28:19-20; Mk 16:16; Lk 10:16; Jn 20:22-23].
 
Oh please.

I am not picking and choosing anything. I never limited God. You seem to be picking and choosing. I believe everything the Catholic Church teaches, the Creed, Scripture, etc.

What’s your beef?
He’s drinking that Hater-ade. 😃
 
God has transporter technology a la Star Trek. I am sure he can create a very deep flood:

Acts 8:

38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.
 
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