Does the Catholic Church seem like She is becoming more Protestant-like?

[hn160]

That’s a good, balanced answer. I get the impression that Vatican II made it a lot more “Protestant-like”, but that John Paul II and the present Pope would like to resist this change. Meantime the Church of England has become moore Catholic-like. Matins (morning prayer) is now uncommon and the main service is the eucharist.

But someone has made the point that it depends what it means by “Protestant like”. The CofE, for example is very different to many Protestant denominations.

The CofE is the same as mainline US Churches, they ordain women, homosexuals and do not have one view of the Eurchust.

Our chuch uses Matins and the Divine Service which has the Eurchust and we don’t ordain women or homosexuals.

 

[Cheshangle]

Unless you have BEEN a Protestant, you have no idea how truly silly this thread is.

So many Catholics don’t have a clue what the vast majority of Protestant Churches are like. Not a CLUE! They THINK they know, because maybe they’ve been to one a time or two, but they really don’t have any working knowledge of them at all.

I am, and have been, the ONLY Catholic in my Protestant family since 1953! My grandfather, two of my uncles, all of my great uncles on my mothers side of the family (9 of them) were all FUNDAMENTALIST PROTESTANT MINISTERS.

I have a lot of cousins that belong to the United Methodist Church, to the Presbyterian Church of the USA, and to the Episcopal Church USA. They are all moving over to more fundamentalist churches, because, as one of them put it, “My church doesn’t even follow the Bible any more”.

My Canadian cousins primarily belong to the “United Church”, and they are also seeking because that church essentially stands for nothing any longer.

Or, as I put it, “Most of the ‘mainline Protestant Churches’ now stand for whatever feels good now!” They don’t really believe in sin, they have absolutely NO concept of morals, you can do whatever YOU think is right.

No, the Catholic Church is NOT becoming like a Protestant church! Far from it, Thank God!

I have been, and still am, a Protestant and I don’t think that this post is silly. It is at least arguable that Vatican II made the RCC more Protestant. I know at least one RC (a priest) who was deeply upset by this.

 

[Cheshangle]

The CofE is the same as mainline US Churches, they ordain women, homosexuals and do not have one view of the Eurchust.

Our chuch uses Matins and the Divine Service which has the Eurchust and we don’t ordain women or homosexuals.

The CofE might ordain homosexuals. but the rule is that they must not be practicing homosexuals. This rule might be broken, though it should not be, but from what I can understand not all RC priests are celibate: though they should be (unless they’re ex-Anglican priests).

Are you saying that the RC does not ordain homosexuals. Are all RC priests non-practicing heterosexuals? Or are there non-practicing homosexuals in their ranks too?

 

[Cheshangle]

I tend to agree with the poster who said it’s like compairing Pro Wrestling to Figure Skating. Yes they are both sports but totally different. Catholicism has never and will never be protestant or anything like it. However the people of the Roman Church are becoming more protestant and for me that is alarming as a former protestant I converted to get away from heretical teaching. But i will always stand up for the teachings of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church no matter how many of our members disagree with it. I will ALWAYS believe in the real presence of the Body and Blood will always honor our Blessed Mother and will religiously attend confession.
GOD BLESS YOUR HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH AND MAY THE GATES OF HELL NEVER PREVAIL AGAINST IT

Pax Christi,

TemplarJPN :knight2:

That’s a sad post. It assumes that all RCs are alike and all Protestants are alike. I can assure you from recent experience that comparing a high Anglican mass to a RC one is not like comparing pro-wrestling to figure skating. But comparing a high Anglican mass to a Baptist service probably is.

 

[Cheshangle]

The CofE is the same as mainline US Churches, they ordain women, homosexuals and do not have one view of the Eurchust.

Our chuch uses Matins and the Divine Service which has the Eurchust and we don’t ordain women or homosexuals.

PS Our church uses Matins and the Divine Service (eucharist).

 

[The_Old_Medic]

In fact, the Catholic Church does indeed ordain homosexuals. They, just as heterosexuals, have to take a vow of celibacy, so they are supposed to remain chaste and NOT indulge in homosexual behavior.

As to hymns, I hate to say this but Catholics do NOT have the exclusive ability to write great hymns. In fact, a LOT of truly great religious music was written by, or for, Protestants, Orthodox and even non-Christians.

It frankly doesn’t matter who wrote it, or who may have used it, if a hymn to God is good, then anyone can and should utilize it in worshiping God.

At my fueral, I want two specific pieces of music to be sung. One is an OLD Catholic Hymn in English, “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”, and the other is a “Protestant” Hymn that was once ONLY utilized by the Salvation Army, “Onward Christian Soldiers”.

As a former career soldier, AND a Catholic Christian, I find that piece especially appropriate. I have also loved that piece of music since I was a tiny child, and first heard it sung in my Grandfathers church.

Now, someone mentioned Vatican II, and said that they believed that it made the Church “more Protestant”, but that Pope’s Paul VI and John Paul II had “brought it back”.

Sorry, but this person has OBVIOUSLY never read the Vatican II papers. In no WAY did those Church fathers make the Catholic Church “Protestant” in any way, shape or form.

What they did was get rid of a LOT of superstitious clap-trap from the middle ages; they made the church much more open and accepting; they made the laity an integral part of the functioning of the church; they updated a great deal of liturgy (which was LONG overdue; and they shined a bright light into the inner workings of the church.

The only tragedy was that Pope John XXIII did not live long enough to see the fruits of his labor come into being. We would, in my opinion, have a MUCH better church had he lived 5 more years. But, he was very old when elected, and he knew he wouldn’t see the end of his council (he stated this when he ordered it).

I vividly remember the Church under Pope Pius XII, and the way it seemed to regain hope and exude love when John XXIII took over. He was acknowledged as a “Caretaker” Pope, one who was elected because none of the younger men could get adequate support. So, they elected an “old man”, who wouldn’t live long, and who wouldn’t “do anything”.

I remember reading the articles written at the time, and NOBODY expected any change at all with John XXIII. BUT, he "turned the Church upside down, and brought it from the 13th century right into the 20th!

It was LONG overdue.

I pray for another John XXIII, to finish the job!

 

[jam070406]

In fact, the Catholic Church does indeed ordain homosexuals. They, just as heterosexuals, have to take a vow of celibacy, so they are supposed to remain chaste and NOT indulge in homosexual behavior.

As to hymns, I hate to say this but Catholics do NOT have the exclusive ability to write great hymns. In fact, a LOT of truly great religious music was written by, or for, Protestants, Orthodox and even non-Christians.

It frankly doesn’t matter who wrote it, or who may have used it, if a hymn to God is good, then anyone can and should utilize it in worshiping God.

At my fueral, I want two specific pieces of music to be sung. One is an OLD Catholic Hymn in English, “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”, and the other is a “Protestant” Hymn that was once ONLY utilized by the Salvation Army, “Onward Christian Soldiers”.

As a former career soldier, AND a Catholic Christian, I find that piece especially appropriate. I have also loved that piece of music since I was a tiny child, and first heard it sung in my Grandfathers church.

Now, someone mentioned Vatican II, and said that they believed that it made the Church “more Protestant”, but that Pope’s Paul VI and John Paul II had “brought it back”.

Sorry, but this person has OBVIOUSLY never read the Vatican II papers. In no WAY did those Church fathers make the Catholic Church “Protestant” in any way, shape or form.

What they did was get rid of a LOT of superstitious clap-trap from the middle ages; they made the church much more open and accepting; they made the laity an integral part of the functioning of the church; they updated a great deal of liturgy (which was LONG overdue; and they shined a bright light into the inner workings of the church.

The only tragedy was that Pope John XXIII did not live long enough to see the fruits of his labor come into being. We would, in my opinion, have a MUCH better church had he lived 5 more years. But, he was very old when elected, and he knew he wouldn’t see the end of his council (he stated this when he ordered it).

I vividly remember the Church under Pope Pius XII, and the way it seemed to regain hope and exude love when John XXIII took over. He was acknowledged as a “Caretaker” Pope, one who was elected because none of the younger men could get adequate support. So, they elected an “old man”, who wouldn’t live long, and who wouldn’t “do anything”.

I remember reading the articles written at the time, and NOBODY expected any change at all with John XXIII. BUT, he "turned the Church upside down, and brought it from the 13th century right into the 20th!

It was LONG overdue.

I pray for another John XXIII, to finish the job!

Do tell, what is this “superstitious clap-trap” you accuse the Church of?

 

[TemplarJPN]

That’s a sad post. It assumes that all RCs are alike and all Protestants are alike. I can assure you from recent experience that comparing a high Anglican mass to a RC one is not like comparing pro-wrestling to figure skating. But comparing a high Anglican mass to a Baptist service probably is.

Its not a sad post. I’m not compairing Roman Catholic Mass to High Anglican Mass. I can honestly say I have never been to a Anglican mass so I can’t and wont comment on their services. I was however raised Baptist and converted to Roman Catholicism. And I was compairing Roman Catholicism to the Baptist “church”. sorry for any confusion.

Pax Christi,

TemplarJPN :knight2:

 

[Roy5]

A correction. *Onward Christian Soldiers *was written by an Anglican named Sabine Baring-Gould for a Sunday School ‘parade’ (as it were). It has been used by many other Protestant churches for decades in addition to the Salvation Army. The tune usually accompanying the hymn is known as “St. Gertrude”, composed by Arthur Sullivan of Gilbert and Sullivan fame.

Let me share one experience. I attended a family reunion in Colorado. While there I passed by a church with a sign suggesting that it was a 'real' Catholic Church. I decided to stop in to quell my curiosity. The 'bishop' was there and what a story he fed me. The Papacy, he charged, has been taken over by 'Protestantized' radical elements within the church. The Vatican today was heretical. He went into great detail as to how Vatican II had wrecked the church, displayed pictures - one, for example, showed John Paul II kissing a Quran - etc. Quite an experience.

I'm not sure that the Catholic Church has become increasingly Protestant. There seems to be more power assigned to the laity, which is Protestantish. The emphasis on singing hymns, many of them Protestant in origin, could suggest a Protestant influence. The removal of many statues after Vatican II may make sanctuaries seem a bit more Protestant. Certainly the introduction of the vernacular was a major demand of the Reformation.

Where I find a Protestant spirit most pronounced is among Catholic people. They seem to think for themselves without all that much concern as to what the church says. In this area (northeast), states where Catholicism is strongest - e. g., MA, CT, RI, NY - have been among the first to make gay marriage or civil union legal. Opposition to gay marriage has been concentrated among Republicans, who (in this area) tend to be Protestant. Going back to the Civil War, Protestants in these parts tended to be Republican, immigrant groups (Irish, Italians, French-Canadian, Polish, etc.) tended to become Democrats. 

I also find that many Catholics, even those who attend mass regularly, don't pay much attention to the church when it comes to, say, birth control. I read a poll awhile back in the US Catholic magazine indicating that a majority of Catholics don't believe in transubstantiation. Few seem to attend mass on such days of obligation as August 15, the feast of the Assumption. And we could go on. In summary, I think that Catholic people have become more Protestant than the church itself.

God bless everybody, of every creed, color, culture and country. God will judge us by our hearts (see Matt. 25:31ff) and not by our doctrines or church affiliation.

 

[PatriceA]

The Church itself is definitely **not **more Protestant in ‘doctrine’ or ‘worship’.

Individuals within the church on the other hand may appear to be.

From personal experience it’s usually the ‘smorgasbord Catholics’ who want to pick and choose to practice some and not all of the ‘requirements of the faith’ .

They want to choose for themselves what they should believe and practice and not what the Church teaches. I wouldn’t say that is a peculiarly Protestant thing, it is also the influence of the individualistic, secular and materialistic world that we find ourselves living in.

Millions live unexamined lives with very little thought of repercussions. Imagine what would happen if every person examined their actions, inaction and thoughts** every day**.

Western society as a whole is increasingly becoming about me, myself and I.

It is a ‘spiritual assault’ and it happens from the moment we wake up till we fall asleep. Very few of us view it that way and as such are ill equipped for 'spiritual warfare.

My thoughts pretty much. There are some parishes that are just more Protestant like, or more about the liberal Catholic. But THE Catholic Church hasn’t changed with the times. There are very traditional parishes and strive to live out ALL the teachings of Church. My advice is to find one of those parishes if you feel your current parish is becoming more Prostestant like.

 

[Cheshangle]

Its not a sad post. I’m not compairing Roman Catholic Mass to High Anglican Mass. I can honestly say I have never been to a Anglican mass so I can’t and wont comment on their services. I was however raised Baptist and converted to Roman Catholicism. And I was compairing Roman Catholicism to the Baptist “church”. sorry for any confusion.

Pax Christi,

TemplarJPN :knight2:

Thanks. Fair enough

 

[Cheshangle]

In fact, the Catholic Church does indeed ordain homosexuals. They, just as heterosexuals, have to take a vow of celibacy, so they are supposed to remain chaste and NOT indulge in homosexual behavior.

As to hymns, I hate to say this but Catholics do NOT have the exclusive ability to write great hymns. In fact, a LOT of truly great religious music was written by, or for, Protestants, Orthodox and even non-Christians.

It frankly doesn’t matter who wrote it, or who may have used it, if a hymn to God is good, then anyone can and should utilize it in worshiping God.

At my fueral, I want two specific pieces of music to be sung. One is an OLD Catholic Hymn in English, “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”, and the other is a “Protestant” Hymn that was once ONLY utilized by the Salvation Army, “Onward Christian Soldiers”.

As a former career soldier, AND a Catholic Christian, I find that piece especially appropriate. I have also loved that piece of music since I was a tiny child, and first heard it sung in my Grandfathers church.

Now, someone mentioned Vatican II, and said that they believed that it made the Church “more Protestant”, but that Pope’s Paul VI and John Paul II had “brought it back”.

Sorry, but this person has OBVIOUSLY never read the Vatican II papers. In no WAY did those Church fathers make the Catholic Church “Protestant” in any way, shape or form.

What they did was get rid of a LOT of superstitious clap-trap from the middle ages; they made the church much more open and accepting; they made the laity an integral part of the functioning of the church; they updated a great deal of liturgy (which was LONG overdue; and they shined a bright light into the inner workings of the church.

The only tragedy was that Pope John XXIII did not live long enough to see the fruits of his labor come into being. We would, in my opinion, have a MUCH better church had he lived 5 more years. But, he was very old when elected, and he knew he wouldn’t see the end of his council (he stated this when he ordered it).

I vividly remember the Church under Pope Pius XII, and the way it seemed to regain hope and exude love when John XXIII took over. He was acknowledged as a “Caretaker” Pope, one who was elected because none of the younger men could get adequate support. So, they elected an “old man”, who wouldn’t live long, and who wouldn’t “do anything”.

I remember reading the articles written at the time, and NOBODY expected any change at all with John XXIII. BUT, he "turned the Church upside down, and brought it from the 13th century right into the 20th!

It was LONG overdue.

I pray for another John XXIII, to finish the job!

My thoughts, and prayers, entirely.

 

[Stylites]

As an aside, it would be informative to see if anyone who thinks it is becoming more Protestant whether you were a convert from Protestantism. Some converts try to convert away from Protestantism rather than convert to Catholicism, hence the use of the Catholic Church as a temporary stepping stone to more obtuse and schismatic sects when they are really seeking a Catholic culture rather than the Catholic Church.

 

[hn160]

The CofE might ordain homosexuals. but the rule is that they must not be practicing homosexuals. This rule might be broken, though it should not be, but from what I can understand not all RC priests are celibate: though they should be (unless they’re ex-Anglican priests).

Are you saying that the RC does not ordain homosexuals. Are all RC priests non-practicing heterosexuals? Or are there non-practicing homosexuals in their ranks too?

I would hope that they would monitor any homosexual that RCC would ordain. Originally in the ELCA, they would ordain homosexuals but they had to remain “celibate”. Now in this politically correct world, that rule has been dropped and anything goes, the same for TEC.

 

[Cat]

Unless you have BEEN a Protestant, you have no idea how truly silly this thread is.

So many Catholics don’t have a clue what the vast majority of Protestant Churches are like. Not a CLUE! They THINK they know, because maybe they’ve been to one a time or two, but they really don’t have any working knowledge of them at all.

I am, and have been, the ONLY Catholic in my Protestant family since 1953! My grandfather, two of my uncles, all of my great uncles on my mothers side of the family (9 of them) were all FUNDAMENTALIST PROTESTANT MINISTERS.

I have a lot of cousins that belong to the United Methodist Church, to the Presbyterian Church of the USA, and to the Episcopal Church USA. They are all moving over to more fundamentalist churches, because, as one of them put it, “My church doesn’t even follow the Bible any more”.

My Canadian cousins primarily belong to the “United Church”, and they are also seeking because that church essentially stands for nothing any longer.

Or, as I put it, “Most of the ‘mainline Protestant Churches’ now stand for whatever feels good now!” They don’t really believe in sin, they have absolutely NO concept of morals, you can do whatever YOU think is right.

No, the Catholic Church is NOT becoming like a Protestant church! Far from it, Thank God!

This is very well put. You said what I said with greater clarity. Thank you.

The difference between you and me, The Old Medic, is that I was Protestant for 47 years until 7 years ago, so my experiences with Protestantism are up close and personal and recent.

 

[Cat]

As an aside, it would be informative to see if anyone who thinks it is becoming more Protestant whether you were a convert from Protestantism. Some converts try to convert away from Protestantism rather than convert to Catholicism, hence the use of the Catholic Church as a temporary stepping stone to more obtuse and schismatic sects when they are really seeking a Catholic culture rather than the Catholic Church.

That’s an interesting point.

Some Protestants tend to be very “experiential.” They seek out “experiences” and live according to their feelings rather than by faith. They live from mountaintop to mountaintop, and when they are in a life valley, they speak of being “spiritually dry” or “out of fellowship with the Lord.” They haven’t learned that Christ is with us in good times, bad times, and boring times, and they haven’t learned that faith in God doesn’t necessarily produce an emotional reaction.

I think that these Protestants could very well become enamored of the Catholic culture, as you put it, and want the smells, bells, Latin, chant, kneeling, etc.

There is a movement within evangelical Protestantism called “the emergent church,” in which many Catholic practices can be seen. In our city, the emergent church services advertise candles, chant, lectio divina, confession, etc.–sound Catholic?

The critics of the emergent church claim that these practices will lead Protestants back to Rome!

The evangelical Protestant church that I grew up in strongly discouraged experiential Christianity. Our music and other worship practices were rather staid. We tried very hard to suppress feelings, and we were suspicious of shows of emotion.

I think this is one reason why I am not in the least interested in a Latin Mass, or in any of the ancient Catholic practices. To me, these are “experiental,” and so I am suspicious of them. I want the facts–the straight Mass, with no ceremonies and no fancy stuff. Yes, I do realize that others don’t have the same reaction and I respect their desire for more tradition. I guess I’ve been ruined for such things by my puritanical Protestant upbringing

 

[Bluegoat]

I think some of the things being discussed in this thread aren’t really about being more Protestant vs. more Catholic, but rather about being a late 20th -early 21st century kind of person.

 

[Molotov]

The Apostles of Christ established the Christian Church in the 1st century. The Roman Church asserted its independence from Orthodox Christianity in the 11th Century. The Protestant Reformers asserted their independence from the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century. Since then, Protestantism has fragmented into thousands of churches.

In recent decades, RCC has been involved in an effort to locate separated Protestant brethren, address their concerns, overcome their objections and assimilate them into the community of believers. To this end, the Church made itself more hospitable to potential converts in the areas of catechesis, corporate worship and parish leadership. Protestants responded, converted and promptly became involved in their parishes and dioceses. As a result, a distinctively Protestant phronima has developed and become entrenched within modern Catholicism.

By splitting with Orthodoxy, the Roman Catholic Church became the first Christian denomination, paved to road to the Protestant Reformation and the guaranteed the disintegration of Western Christianity that followed.

To some, Roman Catholics and Protestants look like different sides of the same coin.

 

[Cheshangle]

Unless you have BEEN a Protestant, you have no idea how truly silly this thread is.

So many Catholics don’t have a clue what the vast majority of Protestant Churches are like. Not a CLUE! They THINK they know, because maybe they’ve been to one a time or two, but they really don’t have any working knowledge of them at all.

I am, and have been, the ONLY Catholic in my Protestant family since 1953! My grandfather, two of my uncles, all of my great uncles on my mothers side of the family (9 of them) were all FUNDAMENTALIST PROTESTANT MINISTERS.

I have a lot of cousins that belong to the United Methodist Church, to the Presbyterian Church of the USA, and to the Episcopal Church USA. They are all moving over to more fundamentalist churches, because, as one of them put it, “My church doesn’t even follow the Bible any more”.

My Canadian cousins primarily belong to the “United Church”, and they are also seeking because that church essentially stands for nothing any longer.

Or, as I put it, “Most of the ‘mainline Protestant Churches’ now stand for whatever feels good now!” They don’t really believe in sin, they have absolutely NO concept of morals, you can do whatever YOU think is right.

No, the Catholic Church is NOT becoming like a Protestant church! Far from it, Thank God!

You say, correctly in my opinion, that, “so many Catholics don’t have a clue what the vast majority of Protestant churches are like”. Certainly that comes across in this forum. But in fairness, nor do many Anglicans, including me. We have a “feel” and respect for Roman Catholicism (our Beloved Sister Church, after all) and possibly for Methodism (separated bretheren), but very little knowledge of the rest.

In my sixty six years I’ve been to hundreds of Anglican services, about six RC ones, one Methodist (not impressed) and (!) one Pentecostal (ludicrous). So I really have very little idea about other Protestant religions.

 

[Cheshangle]

That’s an interesting point.

Some Protestants tend to be very “experiential.” They seek out “experiences” and live according to their feelings rather than by faith. They live from mountaintop to mountaintop, and when they are in a life valley, they speak of being “spiritually dry” or “out of fellowship with the Lord.” They haven’t learned that Christ is with us in good times, bad times, and boring times, and they haven’t learned that faith in God doesn’t necessarily produce an emotional reaction.

I think that these Protestants could very well become enamored of the Catholic culture, as you put it, and want the smells, bells, Latin, chant, kneeling, etc.

There is a movement within evangelical Protestantism called “the emergent church,” in which many Catholic practices can be seen. In our city, the emergent church services advertise candles, chant, lectio divina, confession, etc.–sound Catholic?

The critics of the emergent church claim that these practices will lead Protestants back to Rome!

The evangelical Protestant church that I grew up in strongly discouraged experiential Christianity. Our music and other worship practices were rather staid. We tried very hard to suppress feelings, and we were suspicious of shows of emotion.

I think this is one reason why I am not in the least interested in a Latin Mass, or in any of the ancient Catholic practices. To me, these are “experiental,” and so I am suspicious of them. I want the facts–the straight Mass, with no ceremonies and no fancy stuff. Yes, I do realize that others don’t have the same reaction and I respect their desire for more tradition. I guess I’ve been ruined for such things by my puritanical Protestant upbringing

I am very well enamoured of catholic culture.