Does the Catholic Church seem like She is becoming more Protestant-like?

[jam070406]

The Catholic Church has the Magisterum, so naturally she cannot become Protestant-like in doctrine. But liturgically, architecturally, musically, it absolutely has become more Protestant-like, at least in America. It certainly isn’t more Eastern Orthodox-like!
Some on this thread have even affirmed it by claiming they like the modern worship as opposed to the old, ancient, Traditional way.

 

[hn160]

The Catholic Church has the Magisterum, so naturally she cannot become Protestant-like in doctrine. But liturgically, architecturally, musically, it absolutely has become more Protestant-like, at least in America. It certainly isn’t more Eastern Orthodox-like!
Some on this thread have even affirmed it by claiming they like the modern worship as opposed to the old, ancient, Traditional way.

We have that same problem in the LC-MS where Lutherans want to worship like Evangelicals, they think that church growth means video screen, do away with the liturgy, have praise bands up in the altar area and follow the bouncing ball praise hymns. Lutheran hymns are suppose to teach doctrine not mindless songs.

 

[TrueLight]

In fact, the Catholic Church does indeed ordain homosexuals. They, just as heterosexuals, have to take a vow of celibacy, so they are supposed to remain chaste and NOT indulge in homosexual behavior.

As to hymns, I hate to say this but Catholics do NOT have the exclusive ability to write great hymns. In fact, a LOT of truly great religious music was written by, or for, Protestants, Orthodox and even non-Christians.

It frankly doesn’t matter who wrote it, or who may have used it, if a hymn to God is good, then anyone can and should utilize it in worshiping God.

At my fueral, I want two specific pieces of music to be sung. One is an OLD Catholic Hymn in English, “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”, and the other is a “Protestant” Hymn that was once ONLY utilized by the Salvation Army, “Onward Christian Soldiers”.

As a former career soldier, AND a Catholic Christian, I find that piece especially appropriate. I have also loved that piece of music since I was a tiny child, and first heard it sung in my Grandfathers church.

Now, someone mentioned Vatican II, and said that they believed that it made the Church “more Protestant”, but that Pope’s Paul VI and John Paul II had “brought it back”.

Sorry, but this person has OBVIOUSLY never read the Vatican II papers. In no WAY did those Church fathers make the Catholic Church “Protestant” in any way, shape or form.

What they did was get rid of a LOT of superstitious clap-trap from the middle ages; they made the church much more open and accepting; they made the laity an integral part of the functioning of the church; they updated a great deal of liturgy (which was LONG overdue; and they shined a bright light into the inner workings of the church.

The only tragedy was that Pope John XXIII did not live long enough to see the fruits of his labor come into being. We would, in my opinion, have a MUCH better church had he lived 5 more years. But, he was very old when elected, and he knew he wouldn’t see the end of his council (he stated this when he ordered it).

I vividly remember the Church under Pope Pius XII, and the way it seemed to regain hope and exude love when John XXIII took over. He was acknowledged as a “Caretaker” Pope, one who was elected because none of the younger men could get adequate support. So, they elected an “old man”, who wouldn’t live long, and who wouldn’t “do anything”.

I remember reading the articles written at the time, and NOBODY expected any change at all with John XXIII. BUT, he "turned the Church upside down, and brought it from the 13th century right into the 20th!

It was LONG overdue.

I pray for another John XXIII, to finish the job!

We already have someone who is finishing the job – HH Benedict XVI.

 

[jam070406]

We have that same problem in the LC-MS where Lutherans want to worship like Evangelicals, they think that church growth means video screen, do away with the liturgy, have praise bands up in the altar area and follow the bouncing ball praise hymns. Lutheran hymns are suppose to teach doctrine not mindless songs.

That’s funny! I went to an adult faith formation meeting at my church and someone mentioned getting a projector and screens to display the words of hymns at Mass. :doh2:

 

[Cheshangle]

The differences between Protestants and Catholics are profound.

The veneration for Mary and the belief in the Body, Soul and Divinity of the Eucharist are teachings that can not be blurred.

The adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is being embraced by more and more Catholics.

There are new cosmetic similarities. But that is all.

Yet again you have made the mistake of lumping all “Protestants” together.

The differences between high Anglicans and Evangelical Baptists are profund.

When did you last attend an Anglican eucharist?

 

[perro_sarnoso]

I think certain members of the Church may have made it seem as if the Church were falling to Protestantism, but the Church Herself? No. And the “Protestantizers” are slowly fading out of power. The long winter is slowly turning to spring.

ditto

 

[JonNC]

I think certain members of the Church may have made it seem as if the Church were falling to Protestantism, but the Church Herself? No. And the “Protestantizers” are slowly fading out of power. The long winter is slowly turning to spring.

Can you give me an example of what a “Protestantizer” would teach? Can you give some examples, by name, of who these “Protestantizers” are?

Jon

 

[Cheshangle]

I spent 47 years as an evangelical Protestant, and like many Protestants, I visited many other Protestant churches over those years, not just evangelical denominations.

Almost everyone in my family is still Protestant.

And I still keep up with several Protestant magazines.

So I would say that I’m pretty knowledgeable about Protestantism and the practices. In fact, I would call myself a near-expert.

The Catholic Church is definitely NOT becoming more Protestant-like.

To most evangelical Protestants, even the most modern OF Mass is extremely ritualistic, ancient, old-fashioned, and very strange-looking. They would NOT call it “like Protestantism,” because it isn’t.

There is very little in the OF Mass that an evangelical Protestant would recognize. Some of the traditional hymns will be familiar to older evangelical Protestants (e.g., Holy God We Praise Thy Name). The Lord’s Prayer is familiar.

And that’s about it. Honest.

All that “modern” music that so many Catholics hate is never sung in evangelical Protestant churches. In their contemporary worship services, they sing Praise and Worship songs, which are often accompanied by either a track or a live band that is usually pretty good.

Some of the mainline Protestant churches hold worship services that are similiar to the Catholic Mass, but as HelenRose pointed out, there are significant differences. What I am seeing is that the mainline Protestant churches are looking more and more like evangelical churches.

I suspect that the OP has not been in a lot of Protestant churches, and perhaps is guessing that they are simliar to the to OF Mass. Absolutely not. IMO, OF Mass is to evangelical Protestant worship service as figure skating is to wrestling. They’re both sports, and that’s the only similiarity.

What is an OF mass?

To extend your sporting analogy, you could say that Anglicanism is to Roman Catholicsm what rugby league is to rugby union. But that might not mean much to an American. Similarly, I get the impression that to most Moslems and Jews the difference between RCs and Protestants means very little. We are all lumped together as “Christians”. Mind you, I’m pushed to explain the difference between Shi’ites and Sunis.

 

[Roy5]

When I attended Mass this morning, this CAF discussion came to mind. Yes, compared to Mass 50 years ago, the atmosphere in a typical Catholic Church today is much more like that of a mainline Protestant church than it was.

  I'm not speaking here thologically, but in terms of what the worshiper today experiences. To begin with, of course, all the Mass was in English. Add to this, the priest faces the congregation. Then we have the informality of passing the peace. The women do not cover their heads and everyone (this is July) seemed to be dressed very informally. There were no nuns on the front row as I recall from my childhood days, the parochial school has closed, and few (almost no) teenagers were in attendance. We sang hymns, probably one or more of them of Protestant origin (though I can't be sure of that). There were many vacant or half-filled pews, as in mainline Protestant churches where it is not viewed as a sin to miss worship.  There was an altar girl, lay people read three of the scriptures, a deacon read the Gospel. The bulletin announced a Vacation Bible School which was unheard of in Catholicism when I was growing up. Oh, and by the way, just about everybody went forward to receive. I seem to recall that this was not true in earlier years because of fasting restrictions prior to communion that have been radically changed. Few received communion on the tongue, nearly everyone in the hand. They lined up rather than knelt before the altar as they once did. There was only one side altar and statue in the church - dedicated to Mary. The church has been built in a semi-circular fashion and doesn't have the smell of incense as it once did. (No incense was used.)  

  What is more interesting and significant to me is that many Catholics, perhaps even most in this area, appear to think like mainline Protestants. They are selective in what they believe of the traditional doctrines. I saw a poll awhile ago in the US Catholic magazine that indicated that a majority of Catholics reject or doubt transubtantiation. We spent July 4 with a group of family and friends, and in a conversation with a former Catholic (and retired college professor) he suggested that most Catholic laity plus even some priests think like mainline Protestants in that they believe what they feel they can believe, and either discard or put the rest 'on hold'. They hold on to their Catholicism for family or familiarity reasons but reject many of the beliefs. Many also find spiritual strength in a ritual that has instilled a basic faith over the years, even if they don't believe some basic dogmas of the church.

  In a nutshell, Protestantism, American individualism, and secularism together have made an enormous impact upon Catholics. The sex scandal had done considerable damage, too, of course. The continual sharp condemnation of artificial birth control by the church has alienated many. So has the hostility toward homosexuality. Most of the states that have made gay marriage legal have large Catholic populations, and Catholics in their legislatures gave gay marriage overwhelming support. Etc.

  Note that I keep saying mainline Protestantism. The evangelical Protestant mindset resembles that of traditional Catholics. Both argue that they have the full spiritual truth and that those who disagree with them aren't fully Christian.  

  God bless everybody.

 

[Cheshangle]

That’s funny! I went to an adult faith formation meeting at my church and someone mentioned getting a projector and screens to display the words of hymns at Mass. :doh2:

At a RC mass I went to earlier this year there was a projector and screen with the prayers on them (there wern’t any hymns).

 

[SCGiants]

YES!!! The Church has become VERY protestant - from people holding their hands to the sky as ONLY the Priest or Deacon should during the “our Father” to the folk music now being played, to the wear whatever you like attitude. It is sickening and NOT the Church I grew up in that I loved. I am not sure what it is like in New England USA anymore as I moved from Ct to SC 13 yrs ago but here in SC it is sickening to watch my Church turn into a protestant church. Thank God my grandmother is no longer on this earth she would have had a fit.

 

[jwyates]

Last year, the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life surveyed a wide cross section of Americans on their general knowledge of religion. According to this survey, only 55% knew that the Catholic Church believes in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. You can’t get more Protestant than that. How does that happen? Poor catechism? No catechism? (See article ncregister.com/daily-news/why-catholic/)

 

[SCGiants]

Also when jokes are told in the homily that is protestant like. ALSO a biggie to me is handling the eucharist! When I recieved my 1st communion we learned you NEVER touch the body of Christ with your hands… to open your mouth and a priest puts the eucharist into your mouth… today? Shoot… you get lay-people handing out the eucharist so they can hurry up and be done with it instead of JUST the priest or deacon (how it should be) - I mean this is the BODY OF CHIRST - the most Holy thing we partake in - my neighbor Fred shouldn’t be handing it to me like a pretzel at a bar!
Then another local Church got rid of the statue of Mary where it was because after Mass I was kneeling on the floor in front of her praying… that got moved quick. God forbid some protestant seen it in a land where Catholics are less than 3%… especially the way we’re hated by southern baptists here and considered “Mary worshipers”
Then going back to what I said about ppl holding their hands to the sky during the Lords prayer - when I asked a priest WHY dont they say something to the people to STOP it as they are NOT supposed to be doing that he said “we’re lucky to be here with so many protestants in the area it isnt worth saying anything” -WHAT? What kind of attitude is THAT by a priest??!!!
ALSO - how about this hand shaking? Whats up with that? Come on… please. Instead of that why don’t we instead have a “how to dress” moment where we teach our fellow “bretheren” that coming to the Lords House is more important than say… a wedding, or going to a fancy restaurant - YET they will get dressed up for those things but wear shorts, T shirts and FLIP FLOPS, wrinkled shirts, SHORT SHORT skirts, and RIPPED PAINTED ON JEANS by girls who are PART OF THE MASS handing out the collection baskets! It is disgusting and NOT the Catholic Church I grew up in.
You want to know WHY the numbers are down and WHY npbody wants to be a priest in the USA anymore? Well let me tell you why… it’s because the Church decided to try and become worldly and up to date with the garbage of todays world… instead of the ROCK that we needed - we NEED the steadiness of the Church - the UNWAVERING steadfast Church who refuses to bend to the wickedness of todays world. It be better to have 20,000 Catholics who are true Catholics than 1 billion who are being taught watered-down Catholicism… but apparently my thinking is NOT that of the Churches.
I just PRAY to God that he take me soon to heaven because I don’t belong in this wicked world anymore… and I am 40yrs old… not 90 as it would seem by my level of conservativeness. ALSO one more thing that drives me nuts - when in Church it used to be YOU DO NOT TALK -if you NEEDED to - and by need I mean NEED -you whispered as softly as possible and you said what you had to and then shut up… out of respect for being in a HOLY place. Today? I come to Mass early to TRY and pray but it is hard to concentrate when everyone around you is gossiping, talking about things they would as in a social hour and soft? NOPE - just regular volume of a conversation as if they were on the phone - and this isn’t just once in a while - or by young people - it is by seniors, middle-aged and the youth also! No respect at ALL - and why? Well the priests sure don’t say anything. God forbid someone gets someone upset and tells someone NO.
What happened to my Church? I miss it so much.

 

[SCGiants]

Ohh and Nuns? I thought for years there was none in SC - then when in the hospital this lady introduced herself as a sister… I said sister I am Catholic… and she said I am a nun… I said then why aren’t you dressed like one? She told me that was old fashioned and that her group (not word she used but thats the meaning) are liberated and dont dress like that anymore.
WHAT? LIBERATED? whatever… if that isn’t protestant then I don’t know what is.

 

[JonNC]

=SCGiants;8348806]Also when jokes are told in the homily that is protestant like. ALSO a biggie to me is handling the eucharist! When I recieved my 1st communion we learned you NEVER touch the body of Christ with your hands… to open your mouth and a priest puts the eucharist into your mouth…

And this is exactly what I was taught growing up - as a Lutheran. My first Holy Communion I received on my tongue. We followed the Catholics with the current practice of receiving in the hand.

Jon

 

[Roy5]

Jon

Today (9-11), while watching TV, I was reminded of a MS minister (Rev. Benke was it?) who was punished in some way because he appeared at an interfaith gathering after the original 9-11. As I recall he was suspended because he appeared on the same platform with a Muslim and other non-Christians. 

Two questions.

(1) Where do Missouri Synod Lutherans draw the line? Can they appear on the same platform/program with Jews? with Unitarians? with Baptists? with Catholics? etc. 

(2) Was Rev. Benke reinstated in good standing?

The Catholic Church used to take such a position. I recall as a kid when it was a serious sin for Catholics to attend a Protestant church. Even today Catholics refuse to recognize Protestant churches as real churches but as 'ecclesial entities'.

That narrowness was at the root of 9-11. Religious intolerance and bigotry - Islamic in that case. 

 God bless everybody.

 

[Madaglan]

The Catholic Church and the Protestant churches have converged in many areas, perhaps giving the impression that the Catholic Church is becoming more Protestant. I think Catholic and Protestant churches are being modernized and that traditional modes are being removed from public worship. This is not the case at all churches, there being exceptions, but this is the trend I see.

 

[CopticChristian]

Come on over to the Protestant side! The weather is nice and a heck of alot cooler!!

Could not stand the uncertainty. How can you post when you are banned?

 

[CopticChristian]

What is an OF mass?

To extend your sporting analogy, you could say that Anglicanism is to Roman Catholicsm what rugby league is to rugby union. But that might not mean much to an American. Similarly, I get the impression that to most Moslems and Jews the difference between RCs and Protestants means very little. We are all lumped together as “Christians”. Mind you, I’m pushed to explain the difference between Shi’ites and Sunis.

I do not agree with your rugby analogy. The same ball, same game, different number of players, I played rugby and do agree with this.

 

[CopticChristian]

I am not going to give my opinion in this thread: I only want to see the opinions of others.

The first person who posts after this post can start the discussion.

(Note:If you post your opinion, please give fairly specific details on it.)

Thank You.

Do the ECF appear to be Protestand or Catholic?

The question is open ended without evaluating the Church in it’s divinity/humanity. We do not belong to a Church where the Polling of opinions create anything except opinion. The question has to be answered in terms of what the question defines as “Protestant”. What does that mean? In order to satisfy this posting the OP should declare their opinion. In the divinity of the Church No. In the humanity of the Church we just wait for all to journey on to the glory that is to come. Protestants are welcome to join.