Does the Catholic Church seem like She is becoming more Protestant-like?

[JonNC]

=Roy5;8352850]Jon

Today (9-11), while watching TV, I was reminded of a MS minister (Rev. Benke was it?) who was punished in some way because he appeared at an interfaith gathering after the original 9-11. As I recall he was suspended because he appeared on the same platform with a Muslim and other non-Christians.

Hi Roy,
It wasn’t so much it being a public appearance - that’s fine. It was perceived by some as an interfaith prayer service, which some view as syncretism. Pastor Benke also met with Pope Benedict a couple of years ago when tyhe pope was in New York. No problem with that.

Two questions.

(1) Where do Missouri Synod Lutherans draw the line? Can they appear on the same platform/program with Jews? with Unitarians? with Baptists? with Catholics? etc.

The restrictions on pastors is more strict than on laity. Appearing on a same platform is fine, as I noted above.

(2) Was Rev. Benke reinstated in good standing?

Yes, to my knowledge he remains the president (bishop) of the district which includes NY.

I personally think it was overblown by the more traditionalist LCMS’ers, though I understnad their POV.

The Catholic Church used to take such a position. I recall as a kid when it was a serious sin for Catholics to attend a Protestant church. Even today Catholics refuse to recognize Protestant churches as real churches but as ‘ecclesial entities’.

That narrowness was at the root of 9-11. Religious intolerance and bigotry - Islamic in that case.

Frankly, I think it is far more political and territorial than religious, myself.

Jon

 

[CopticChristian]

When I attended Mass this morning, this CAF discussion came to mind. Yes, compared to Mass 50 years ago, the atmosphere in a typical Catholic Church today is much more like that of a mainline Protestant church than it was.

  I'm not speaking here thologically, but in terms of what the worshiper today experiences. To begin with, of course, all the Mass was in English. Add to this, the priest faces the congregation. Then we have the informality of passing the peace. The women do not cover their heads and everyone (this is July) seemed to be dressed very informally. There were no nuns on the front row as I recall from my childhood days, the parochial school has closed, and few (almost no) teenagers were in attendance. We sang hymns, probably one or more of them of Protestant origin (though I can't be sure of that). There were many vacant or half-filled pews, as in mainline Protestant churches where it is not viewed as a sin to miss worship.  There was an altar girl, lay people read three of the scriptures, a deacon read the Gospel. The bulletin announced a Vacation Bible School which was unheard of in Catholicism when I was growing up. Oh, and by the way, just about everybody went forward to receive. I seem to recall that this was not true in earlier years because of fasting restrictions prior to communion that have been radically changed. Few received communion on the tongue, nearly everyone in the hand. They lined up rather than knelt before the altar as they once did. There was only one side altar and statue in the church - dedicated to Mary. The church has been built in a semi-circular fashion and doesn't have the smell of incense as it once did. (No incense was used.)  

  What is more interesting and significant to me is that many Catholics, perhaps even most in this area, appear to think like mainline Protestants. They are selective in what they believe of the traditional doctrines. I saw a poll awhile ago in the US Catholic magazine that indicated that a majority of Catholics reject or doubt transubtantiation. We spent July 4 with a group of family and friends, and in a conversation with a former Catholic (and retired college professor) he suggested that most Catholic laity plus even some priests think like mainline Protestants in that they believe what they feel they can believe, and either discard or put the rest 'on hold'. They hold on to their Catholicism for family or familiarity reasons but reject many of the beliefs. Many also find spiritual strength in a ritual that has instilled a basic faith over the years, even if they don't believe some basic dogmas of the church.

  In a nutshell, Protestantism, American individualism, and secularism together have made an enormous impact upon Catholics. The sex scandal had done considerable damage, too, of course. The continual sharp condemnation of artificial birth control by the church has alienated many. So has the hostility toward homosexuality. Most of the states that have made gay marriage legal have large Catholic populations, and Catholics in their legislatures gave gay marriage overwhelming support. Etc.

  Note that I keep saying mainline Protestantism. The evangelical Protestant mindset resembles that of traditional Catholics. Both argue that they have the full spiritual truth and that those who disagree with them aren't fully Christian.  

  God bless everybody.

Just so you are aware, you are a wealth of negative information with polling and the Catholic Church. I was not part of any of those polls. I have had no impact of those things you mentioned, I am not alienated, my mindset does not include polling for what I believe.

 

[Roy5]

CopticChristian

Obviously, I am not speaking of you, as you appear to be a 'true believing' Catholics. I am speaking of polls carried in nearly every issue in the *US Catholic*, one of the Catholic periodicals I receive. .

 Many Catholics don't want to confront the reality that the Church has been badly battered in the US. There are many reasons. Two of them are the powerful influence of secularism and the sex scandals, especially the efforts of the hierarchy to hide them from public view and even, for a long time, its refusal to admit to them or confront them. Perhaps the ban on artificial contraception did as much to lessen the influence of the Church as any one thing. If Catholics feel justified in defying Church policy on one issue, it can lose its authority on other issues, also. 

 We should remember, too, that we live in a non-Catholic society, with the Catholic population just 25% of Americans and half or more of those attend Mass rarely if ever. But even in such Catholic countries as Spain, Italy and Ireland the Church has lost enormous influence. I am especially well acquainted with the situation in Quebec, once a bulwark of traditional Catholicism. There has been a tremendous backlash there against religion generally, Catholic and Protestant alike.  

 I sometimes think that millions of people have come to regard religion as a divisive and bigoted tribal force in society. While they may find comfort in faith, the Church as an institution is suspect. Narrow religion, in the opinion of many, has done considerable damage over the years, and there still is a certain parochialism that doesn't appeal to the younger generations. 

 God bless everybody. Let religion become a bridge that unites and not a barrier that divides.
 But those are just some thoughts based on my personal experiences and an analysis. I don't pretend to be an expert in the field.

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian

Obviously, I am not speaking of you, as you appear to be a 'true believing' Catholics. I am speaking of polls carried in nearly every issue in the *US Catholic*, one of the Catholic periodicals I receive. .

 Many Catholics don't want to confront the reality that the Church has been badly battered in the US. There are many reasons. Two of them are the powerful influence of secularism and the sex scandals, especially the efforts of the hierarchy to hide them from public view and even, for a long time, its refusal to admit to them or confront them. Perhaps the ban on artificial contraception did as much to lessen the influence of the Church as any one thing. If Catholics feel justified in defying Church policy on one issue, it can lose its authority on other issues, also. 

 We should remember, too, that we live in a non-Catholic society, with the Catholic population just 25% of Americans and half or more of those attend Mass rarely if ever. But even in such Catholic countries as Spain, Italy and Ireland the Church has lost enormous influence. I am especially well acquainted with the situation in Quebec, once a bulwark of traditional Catholicism. There has been a tremendous backlash there against religion generally, Catholic and Protestant alike.  

 I sometimes think that millions of people have come to regard religion as a divisive and bigoted tribal force in society. While they may find comfort in faith, the Church as an institution is suspect. Narrow religion, in the opinion of many, has done considerable damage over the years, and there still is a certain parochialism that doesn't appeal to the younger generations. 

 God bless everybody. Let religion become a bridge that unites and not a barrier that divides.
 But those are just some thoughts based on my personal experiences and an analysis. I don't pretend to be an expert in the field.

Well, it would appear that based on your information we should do what?

I am reminded of Augustine of Hippo. Had we had polls in his bishopric of Hippo Arianism would be the majority rule. Hippo is gone. Augustine survives as does the OHCAC. None of this information means much to me or anyone else that has seen the world become more and more Catholic. You seem to harbor on the minors and I see the majors. Examine every country that was in theory once Protestant and now predominantly Catholic. See what has happened to Geneva, Europe, and see that the only country in the world where the reformed belief is a country religion is Scotland. Scotland has one of the highest rates of suicide, addiction and divorce. This does not sound like Hippo.

If you say that the USA is 25%, I say check www.adherents.com

Catholic, Baptist Methodist/Wesleyan Lutheran, PresbyterianPentecostal/Charismatic Episcopalian/Anglican

Catholics lead the pack in the USA when you break down the denominations for there is no one Protestant anything.

When you consider that in the world combining Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim that is 1/2 the population of the world.

In consideration that the USA was started by 13 colonies and those colonies were primarily Protestant run and you see today what the numbers show, I see this.

13 colonies

Delaware Methodist 20%, Baptist 19%, Catholic 9% Presbyterian 3.0%
Pennsylvania Catholic 53.43.0%, Orthodox 1.06%, Protestant 30%, United Methodist 9.27%, Evangelical Lutheran 8.6%, Presbyterian 4.56%
New Jersey Presbyterian Catholic 37%, Baptist 8%, Methodist 6%, 3.2%, Presbyterian 4.0%
Georgia Catholic 12 %, 70% Protestant, Baptist 24%, Methodist 12%, Presbyterian 3.0%
Connecticut Catholic 32%, Protestant 40%, Baptist 10%, Episcopal 6%, Methodist 4%, Lutheran 4%, Presbyterian 1.0%
Massachusetts Bay Catholic 68%, Protestant 24%, Baptist 4%, Congregational Church of Christ 3%, Episcopal 3%, Presbyterian 0.8%
Maryland Catholic 32%, Protestant 56%, Baptist 18%, Methodist 11 %, Lutheran 6%, Presbyterian 2.0%
South Carolina Presbyterian Catholic 7%, Protestant 84%, Southern Baptist 45%, Methodist 15%, Presbyterian 5.0%

New Hampshire Presbyterian 2.0%
Virginia Presbyterian 3.0%

New York Catholics 40% Protestant 30 %The largest Protestant denominations are the United Methodist Church with 403,362; the American Baptist Churches USA with 203,297; and the Episcopal Church with 201,797 adherents.[36] Presbyterian 2.0%
North Carolina Presbyterian 3.0%
Rhode Island Presbyterian 1.0%

Now this has only been in 200 years. Pretty good progress that beats the polls I say. Another 300 years and I anticipate better numbers based on the first 200 years.

When you consider that for the most part when anything says Protestants predominate it is primarily the Baptists they are talking about and less likely Reformed anything.

I sit like Augustine. It matters not to me what your numbers show. The entire community can become whatever it likes. I remain like Augustine.

 

[Roy5]

A few points in response.

1. In the Sunday column of the local priest here, he listed the five happiest countries in the world. It caught me by surprise that all of them were Protestant-majority countries.

2. Fifty-five of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were Protestants. 

3. Catholics have grown in size in the USA largely because 9 and every 10 new immigrants have been Catholics. One scholar wrote that 60% of those who came to the USA from Europe and Latin America were Catholic, while 25% now are Catholics.

4. Catholics have a way of counting the flock differently. If a person is baptized Catholic, that person is a Catholic. In most Protestant denominations that applies only to those who choose to become members of that church. Many Protestant churches also have a way of cleaning their books of inactives after so many years. Catholicism seems to hold on to the idea that 'once a Catholic, always a Catholic' - a preposterous principle.

 5. The real enemy of the Church is not Protestantism, as seems to be the feeling expressed often of CAF. The real enemy is extreme secularism combined with hostility to Christianity in general. Catholics and Protestants should work together to promote Christ and not waste energy libeling one another. That is pettiness.

6. It always has interested me that when America was overwhelmingly Protestant and there existed considerable skepticism of Catholicism, millions upon millions of Catholics were admitted to the USA.

7. I repeat a point I made earlier. Same-sex marriage, so denounced by the Church, has been approved mostly in states with strong Catholic populations (e. g., MA, CT, NY), supported largely by Catholics in their legislatures. The main opposition seems to have come from GOP Protestants. How does one explain this?

 My suggestion is that Catholics take a more open-minded ecumenical attitude, rather than a holier-than-thou "we are the only truly valid Christians" approach. They should be less rigid. Actually, I find Catholics generally okay, but there are militants, including many here on CAF, who seem intent upon continuing the senseless religious wars that are a shameful chapter in church history. 

 After all, we worship the same God, and I defer to God when it comes to ultimate truth. The rest of us "see through a glass darkly" (I Cor. 13). That same chapter speaks of faith, hope and love. Love beats the other two. I go with that and not focusing on doctrinal and liturgical differences, which are unimportant compared to loving one another.

 God bless Catholics, Protestants and all of his creation and creatures.

 

[Credendum]

I’m a former protestant, and no, the Catholic Church is not becoming more protestant. The fundamental difference between the two is the Mass.
In protestant groups, a preacher can choose any topic to focus on, and insert his/her personal opinions. Also, in most protestant groups, communion is celebrated once a month at best.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Posted by Roy:
6. It always has interested me that when America was overwhelmingly Protestant and there existed considerable skepticism of Catholicism, millions upon millions of Catholics were admitted to the USA.

Millions did come–but not without Protestant objection; and when they did come, they often were used as cheap labor (as in the case of the Irish) to build up the cities, work the mines, etc. Tensions sometimes exploded into open violence–as depicted in the movie Gangs of New York.

1. I repeat a point I made earlier. Same-sex marriage, so denounced by the Church, has been approved mostly in states with strong Catholic populations (e. g., MA, CT, NY), supported largely by Catholics in their legislatures. The main opposition seems to have come from GOP Protestants. How does one explain this?

A lot of Catholics are nominal and yet, if asked their religion, say Catholic. It goes back to the belief that once someone is baptized (or, as some even would say, born) Catholic, always Catholic. Also, a lot of liberal Catholics are in disagreement with the teachings of the Vatican, and have their own peculiar views of morality.

 

[jam070406]

A few points in response.

1. In the Sunday column of the local priest here, he listed the five happiest countries in the world. It caught me by surprise that all of them were Protestant-majority countries.

2. Fifty-five of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were Protestants. 

3. Catholics have grown in size in the USA largely because 9 and every 10 new immigrants have been Catholics. One scholar wrote that 60% of those who came to the USA from Europe and Latin America were Catholic, while 25% now are Catholics.

4. Catholics have a way of counting the flock differently. If a person is baptized Catholic, that person is a Catholic. In most Protestant denominations that applies only to those who choose to become members of that church. Many Protestant churches also have a way of cleaning their books of inactives after so many years. Catholicism seems to hold on to the idea that 'once a Catholic, always a Catholic' - a preposterous principle.

 5. The real enemy of the Church is not Protestantism, as seems to be the feeling expressed often of CAF. The real enemy is extreme secularism combined with hostility to Christianity in general. Catholics and Protestants should work together to promote Christ and not waste energy libeling one another. That is pettiness.

6. It always has interested me that when America was overwhelmingly Protestant and there existed considerable skepticism of Catholicism, millions upon millions of Catholics were admitted to the USA.

7. I repeat a point I made earlier. Same-sex marriage, so denounced by the Church, has been approved mostly in states with strong Catholic populations (e. g., MA, CT, NY), supported largely by Catholics in their legislatures. The main opposition seems to have come from GOP Protestants. How does one explain this?

 My suggestion is that Catholics take a more open-minded ecumenical attitude, rather than a holier-than-thou "we are the only truly valid Christians" approach. They should be less rigid. Actually, I find Catholics generally okay, but there are militants, including many here on CAF, who seem intent upon continuing the senseless religious wars that are a shameful chapter in church history. 

 After all, we worship the same God, and I defer to God when it comes to ultimate truth. The rest of us "see through a glass darkly" (I Cor. 13). That same chapter speaks of faith, hope and love. Love beats the other two. I go with that and not focusing on doctrinal and liturgical differences, which are unimportant compared to loving one another.

 God bless Catholics, Protestants and all of his creation and creatures.

If it doesn’t matter and is unimportant then Protestants should have no problem returning to the Catholic Church, of which they split from.

 

[mysteryreligion]

Does the Catholic Church seem like She is becoming more Protestant-like?.

Is the pope Catholic?

 

[mysteryreligion]

i HATE the changes that have occurred in hte Church, hand holding and greeting ea other in the middle of the Mass… the priest getting out of the pulpit for the homily…

no reverence anymore…

well, OK there is SOME but not enough

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom (Prov 1)

One might substitute the word Fear for Reverence For

but then…

dont want to protestantize things too much

 

[CopticChristian]

A few points in response.

1. In the Sunday column of the local priest here, he listed the five happiest countries in the world. It caught me by surprise that all of them were Protestant-majority countries.

2. Fifty-five of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were Protestants. 

3. Catholics have grown in size in the USA largely because 9 and every 10 new immigrants have been Catholics. One scholar wrote that 60% of those who came to the USA from Europe and Latin America were Catholic, while 25% now are Catholics.

4. Catholics have a way of counting the flock differently. If a person is baptized Catholic, that person is a Catholic. In most Protestant denominations that applies only to those who choose to become members of that church. Many Protestant churches also have a way of cleaning their books of inactives after so many years. Catholicism seems to hold on to the idea that 'once a Catholic, always a Catholic' - a preposterous principle.

 5. The real enemy of the Church is not Protestantism, as seems to be the feeling expressed often of CAF. The real enemy is extreme secularism combined with hostility to Christianity in general. Catholics and Protestants should work together to promote Christ and not waste energy libeling one another. That is pettiness.

6. It always has interested me that when America was overwhelmingly Protestant and there existed considerable skepticism of Catholicism, millions upon millions of Catholics were admitted to the USA.

7. I repeat a point I made earlier. Same-sex marriage, so denounced by the Church, has been approved mostly in states with strong Catholic populations (e. g., MA, CT, NY), supported largely by Catholics in their legislatures. The main opposition seems to have come from GOP Protestants. How does one explain this?

 My suggestion is that Catholics take a more open-minded ecumenical attitude, rather than a holier-than-thou "we are the only truly valid Christians" approach. They should be less rigid. Actually, I find Catholics generally okay, but there are militants, including many here on CAF, who seem intent upon continuing the senseless religious wars that are a shameful chapter in church history. 

 After all, we worship the same God, and I defer to God when it comes to ultimate truth. The rest of us "see through a glass darkly" (I Cor. 13). That same chapter speaks of faith, hope and love. Love beats the other two. I go with that and not focusing on doctrinal and liturgical differences, which are unimportant compared to loving one another.

 God bless Catholics, Protestants and all of his creation and creatures.

My brother, we worship God in the Liturgy of the Word and God/Jesus in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Protestants have no Eucharist. We worship what we know. It is Doctrinal and Liturgical differences that keep Protstestants from the wedding supper of the lamb. This division cannot be neglected. You cannot wish for what cannot be done and hope for what will not be. You diminish Christ when you diminish this difference. I cannot do that.

 

[vsedriver]

no reverence anymore…

Reverence is in the heart not necessarily in actions.

 

[Roy5]

jam074406

 I know there are differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. The point I am making is that this is no reason to disrespect the beliefs of one another. Sincere Christians comes to different conclusions on the basis of their understanding of scripture and other sources of doctrine. Brilliant men and women hold to different viewpoints, not out of ignorance or willful defiance or egotism, but as a result of their intellectual choices, often influenced, of course, by their family background, schooling and environment.

 What troubles me here on CAF is that so much energy and often venom is wasted on fighting Protestantism, often with forms of sophistry, gotcha strategy, and unChristian indictments when Christians should not be viewed as enemies of one another. Our enemies are elsewhere, those who demean all Christians, who seek to push God from the public arena. It is disillusioning to read so many postings here that insist on assailing other branches of Christendom in an unkind, bitter tone.  I had hoped that the spirit of Vatican II - that we are separated brothers and sisters - would prevail, instead of this perpetual demeaning of Protestantism. Apparently many (most?) CAF posters see things differently, truth against falsehood, which makes me sad. I'm sure Christ is saddened by it, too.

 

[jam070406]

jam074406

 I know there are differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. The point I am making is that this is no reason to disrespect the beliefs of one another. Sincere Christians comes to different conclusions on the basis of their understanding of scripture and other sources of doctrine. Brilliant men and women hold to different viewpoints, not out of ignorance or willful defiance or egotism, but as a result of their intellectual choices, often influenced, of course, by their family background, schooling and environment.

 What troubles me here on CAF is that so much energy and often venom is wasted on fighting Protestantism, often with forms of sophistry, gotcha strategy, and unChristian indictments when Christians should not be viewed as enemies of one another. Our enemies are elsewhere, those who demean all Christians, who seek to push God from the public arena. It is disillusioning to read so many postings here that insist on assailing other branches of Christendom in an unkind, bitter tone.  I had hoped that the spirit of Vatican II - that we are separated brothers and sisters - would prevail, instead of this perpetual demeaning of Protestantism. Apparently many (most?) CAF posters see things differently, truth against falsehood, which makes me sad. I'm sure Christ is saddened by it, too.

Roy,
The Catholic Church contains the fullness of Truth. What you may mistake as venom against Protestantism may be Catholics defending Truth against error or misconception.
Our beliefs are not the same. You are free to do what you wish with the information you are given. But we cannot deny Truth because it is hard for some to hear.

 

[Mickey]

I would say yes.

The type of hymns sung.
Novus Ordo.
Introduction of gender neutral language.
Holding hands during Lord’s Prayer.
Priest facing the people.
Stripping down of the inside of chapel (not all churches).

 

[jam070406]

I would say yes.

The type of hymns sung.
Novus Ordo.
Introduction of gender neutral language.
Holding hands during Lord’s Prayer.
Priest facing the people.
Stripping down of the inside of chapel (not all churches).

Wait…didn’t title “Lord’s Prayer” come from Protestantism?

 

[liturgyluver]

I would say yes.

The type of hymns sung.
Novus Ordo.
Introduction of gender neutral language.
Holding hands during Lord’s Prayer.
Priest facing the people.
Stripping down of the inside of chapel (not all churches).

The sad fact is that this it was Vatican II that initiated most of these changes. Many Lutherans and Anglicans still sing more traditional hymns, use traditional language, have eastward facing celebrations, and no hand raising during the Lords prayer. These traits - along with the dreaded folk mass - are modern catholic rather than protestant phenomena. Some protestants - as some catholics - have been influenced by the charasmatic influences, but these have influenced Service of the Word liturgies rather than sacramental worship practices.